PAF re-considering SAAB JAS-39 Gripen

[RMS Azam]

According to my sources, PAF is re-considering the Swedish Saab JAS-39 Gripen option. PAF is waiting for confirmation whether the US will or will not sell F-16s to Pakistan. If the answer is a final "NO", then it will opt either for the Mirage 2000-5 or the JAS-39 Gripen. US has now told Pakistan that it will now have no objection to the sale of the Gripen to Pakistan. However, PAF is asking Sweden to furnish some guarantees with regards to availablity of spares to PAF if it opts for the Gripen. The Gripen carries a US GE engine and US avionics.

In a meeting with CENTCOM Chief Tommy Franks, PAF Air Chief Mushaf Mir asked Franks to confirm whether the US will or will not sell the F-16 to Pakistan so it can make a final decision.

[azeemchoudhary]

excellent news
Its about time our options started opening up! and our opposition to the agni test and our stance on the matter of not testing (yet) may help also in opeing more options for our armed forces.

[araf]

Assalam,
From what I hear the Gripen comes with a pretty good pricetag, and the ge-f404 is a lot less fussy when it comes to maintanece(?) than the pw f100 in our f-16s, what we could do is lease a couple of sqns of gripens for the short term say 3/4 years and see how it goes from there the swedes should be reasonably forthcoming and once we've got a feel for operating the machines and assuming our money situation is healthy, go for the all bells and whistles version as a supplement to the (hopefully) workhorse fc-1.

Kashif

[azfar]

salam Mr Azam,

I simply do not trust the Americans in any way.
The arrogant "fironiat" cannot leave any guarantees from anyone reliable. What's to stop them from pressuring the Swedes to stop the sale
when it is most painful for us ?

The least they should be selling us is the F-16s, for heaven's sake they should be supplying them
to us for free *and* forcing the Kashmir issue on India.

We must be the only country in the world which allows US troops to based in its territory, and then we are threatened by a neighbour with America's connivance, and moreover, the Americans
not only sanction the sale of Israeli arms to this
neighbour but also talk of their own arms sales
to them, how dare they ? And have we no self respect that we let them get away with this ?

When India threatened us last month, we should have made clear to the USA that their two minions
of Israel and India would both be wiped out, if anyone attacked us. Instead we saw ourselves reduced to the spectacle of Musharaf shaking hands
with the unimpressive, devious slouch of Vajpayee.

I am afraid we haven't done a good job of negotiating terms with the USA for the basement
of their troops, we should be getting much much more than the peanuts that are dangled in front of
us. We have'nt learnt anything from history either
I am sure those of you who are old enough remember that when the US ambassador to Pakistan in the 60's was told how much we were getting for giving
the Badaber base to the US he said "You Pakistanis
are suckers".

God give us the courage to stand up to the arrogant and hypocrites even if means the deprivation of our life on this earth. Ameen.

khuda nigehdar

Farrukh

Quote: Originally posted by RMS Azam According to my sources, PAF is re-considering the Swedish Saab JAS-39 Gripen option. PAF is waiting for confirmation whether the US will or will not sell F-16s to Pakistan. If the answer is a final "NO", then it will opt either for the Mirage 2000-5 or the JAS-39 Gripen. US has now told Pakistan that it will now have no objection to the sale of the Gripen to Pakistan. However, PAF is asking Sweden to furnish some guarantees with regards to availablity of spares to PAF if it opts for the Gripen. The Gripen carries a US GE engine and US avionics. In a meeting with CENTCOM Chief Tommy Franks, PAF Air Chief Mushaf Mir asked Franks to confirm whether the US will or will not sell the F-16 to Pakistan so it can make a final decision.

[azeemchoudhary]

how much would a couple of squadrons of grippens cost?

[H Khan]

Well, again PAF is indulging in mind games. It is very clear that Pentagon is very much in dealing and selling Pakistan military hardware but it is the State dept. which is the bone of contention.

I am really not sure how much leaway that President Musharraf and his team is getting from Gen. Powell and his team but I hope that when President Musharraf meets President Bush, Congressmen, Senators, and Rumsfeld he would get a lot of leavrage from these people. On the whole, this whole trip of President Musharraf called "Official working visit" by the White House is a very positive sign and this visit is a step short of "State Visit." The last State visit by a President of Pakistan to White House was in Dec. 1982, while President Musharraf did meet President Bush in NY in November but this visit is different because the Bush Admin. invited him for a visit.

[H Khan]

Given the case that Azam sahib has put forward we can discuss the feasibility between Mirage 2000-05 and Saab JAS-39. Any technical, political and financial aspect of these two aircrafts can be discussed which will make on impact PAF.

Saab JAS 39A Gripen is a single-seat all-weathr fighter, attact and recc. aircrafts. While Mirage 2000-05 is single-seat multi-role fighter.

[SyedA]

I think we are in need of a multirole aircraft more than justa fighter. I am tired of the figure of 40 or 50 with every military purchase we do. We need to buy/lease larger number especially when our F-16s are getting old, F-6s are gone and F-7 and Mirages are mi-technology aircraft.

We need to have good 5 or 6 squadrons of new fighters along with one OCU squadron.

I hope with JAS-39 PAF would try to bring in some technology also. With Mirages atmost we can get assembly rights ike the Indians did but with the Agosta deal in mind it could be different.

I think with JAS-39 we can have a working relationship with South Africa again because they are also getting them.

What I need to know is what swedish weapons are available for JAS-39

[M Ahmed]

Salam,

Why not go for the Mirage 2000-9 rather than the 5?Plus how will the future purchase of high-tech aircraft affect the funding of the Super-7 project?
IMHO, a modern integrated SAM and EW network is a must and this should take into account the possible Indian acquistions of S-300Vs,ARROWs and PHALCONS.

Plus how well will the Gripen or the Mirage 2000-5 or 9 perform against the SU-30s?I totally agree Syed A's comment that we should go for a high-tech aircraft in atleast moderately large numbers and funds for this must be found so as to prevent the repetition of the F-16 saga.How about upgrading the existing F-16 fleet to MLU standard?This should not be a bone of contention if the state visit of Gen Musharraf goes well.

Regards.
mansoor.

[SyedA]

mansoor as far as F-16s MLU is concerned I believe Lockheed is working with PAF which Azam reported in the beginning when US forces were being frployed in Pakistan and Pakistan Military delegate came here for spare parts purchases.

I have dug up some stuff on JAS. and Mirage 2000. But before we get into technicalities we need to analyze South African purchase of JAS-39. I think the whole sales schematics needs to be conisdered cause every country works differently.

Also, if we do go for JAS then the Aiere system sale might be cheaper for us as part of the deal. One thing Pakistan can do is buy enough from Sweden that we can block any military sales to India which I believe in current economy is not possible. I doubt the country is ready for a major military purchase while the economy is in recovery phase.

I think afridi would be a good person to shed some light on this. But as we have seen the war hysteria on the indian side twice between 99 and 2002, this could be justified to the public.

Sweden has been marketing its military equipment for a while and they need a permamnent customer to support their economy.
We can slowly srift away from US market as they have been the only contender in this and let France and Swedes fight it out. France also tried to market its Mirage-2000SA (SA for south Africa) version but I guess the deal didn't go through.

Sweden also makes excellent land systems. We have seen Bofors, pretty good system not sure if it is for our needs. Anyway, the whole point is if we go for a major purchase we can get a permanent seller and good deal.

By the way can we dig up on South African deal?

[SyedA]

BILL 2 - ANTI-TANK GUIDED WEAPON, SWEDEN

CV90 TRACKED ARMOURED COMBAT VEHICLES, SWEDEN

BOFORS DEFENCE - SMART MORTAR AND ARTILLERY AMMUNITION

BOFORS DEFENCE - INTEGRATED LOGISTICS AND PRODUCT SUPPORT

BOFORS DEFENCE - DEMINING VEHICLES

BOFORS DEFENCE - COMBAT VEHICLE TURRET SYSTEMS

BOFORS DEFENCE - 40MM AIR DEFENCE GUN SYSTEMS

BOFORS DEFENCE - NAVAL GUNS AND PROGRAMMABLE AMMUNITION

[H Khan]

Most of the armaments on JAS 39 are american made.

Rb 74 copy of AIM-9L
Rb 99 copy of AIM-120
Rb 75 copy of AGM-65
Rbs 15F is SAABs AShM
From 2004 the IRIS-T would be employed

However, South African Gripens includes V-3E A-Darter agile dogfight and A-Darter active-radar BVR AAMs.

[SyedA]

we havent heard what is the status of South African sanctions, Most of the countres have removed it. Any stataus on this

[SyedA]

There is a good article in AFM of march 2000 edition. One of the key features that has been explained in details is its data-link system and information-superiority concept.

What it actually is, it transfers data from its radar, and fire control systems to other aircraft in the air such as other grippens in the air and also to the ground stations.

Another interesting feature is if a reconn grippen goes in and takes pictures and acquires target and relays this info to other grippens so the attacking grippens can go in with their radars switched off. this gives them a surprise element.

The only two other aircraft that have this feature are the super hornet and Typhoon. Sewdes have been doing since 80s.


By the way Grippen is a "Multirole" meaning roles can be switched on the ground by the ground crew by reprogramming the devices and by other means and it is also a "swingrole" meaning roles can be sitched during a mission.

[Sultan]

Quote: By the way Grippen is a "Multirole" meaning roles can be switched on the ground by the ground crew by reprogramming the devices and by other means and it is also a "swingrole" meaning roles can be sitched during a mission.

Yes thats what I thought as well....... was kind of baffled when I read that it was just a fighter. Anyway completely agree with the members when they state that Pakistan should go in for large numbers of any future hi-tech mulitrole fighter. Im sure Other members and yself have stated this numerous times before but Pakistans defence has to start movng away from being Indian centric to one that is geared to countering threats emanating from beyond the subontinent as well. For that we require the appropriate equipment in large numbers. The Gripen IMHO seems to be an ideal hi tech jet fighter for the PAF, with a price tag of approx. $26 million. Personally Id rather the PAF pursue the Gripen rather than the Mirage, IF the conditions are right.

PS. Forget the F16 and go for the gripen while we still can at favourable conditions. I cant belive the PAF still wants the F16 after the whole fiasco. If the US has not approved any sales yet than it is a no go and other options should be pursued and implemented.

[Gaf]

The Gripen is better suited to Pakistan's requirements than any F16 derivative in terms of core abilities.

It is small, lightweight and extremely sophisticated. The key factors for Pakistan would be it's low operating costs per hour, it's short-takeoff abilities, in addition to be able to operate from very confined spaces, eg roads etc...

The disadvatage i can see is it's limited payload capabilities, as it is limited to the same number of hardpoints compared with F16 C/D and the load it can carry. The F16s, have a clear advantage here....

The F16 is the natural choice given PAFs infrastructure was designed to support 130odd of these puppies and the familiarity of the aircraft to the pilots and ground crew.

Ultimately, it comes down to money. If Pakistan was given a 'clear' signal that it could acquire F16s, then it would attempt to acquire 'used' F16s from those stocks held in storage at cheap prices, ie $4-5million each, and upgrade them to MLU standard.. eg 80-100 of them.. I don't see them buying new build F16s given the lead times involved and the unpredictable nature of the relationship between USA/Pakistan..

As for Mirages, nice planes.. but tooooooo damn expensive!

[omear]

Excellent Site with lots of good info on the gripen including future upgrades and nice pics of the cockpit!!!.

In my opinion the gripen is a better option because it was the first 4 gen plane in to service and it has all the bugs worked out by the swedish airforce and all the changes have been made so you can think of the gripen avalible today as like a f16 blk 50 instead of the gripen 6-7 yrs ago which were like f-16 blk 20's. (this comparison is just to show that the gripen has evolved)

we should seriously consider the gripen and try our best for some limited in house production of key components(very unlikely but still worth a shot). If we go for the gripen which will cost almost half compared to the m2k9. and we should get at least ~140 total in 4 lots. first being 2 sqd's for training ocu and tactic generation. then the main order with some desired improvements for the paf as by then they will have knowledge of the plane ~4 sqds 80 planes. and then an order of ~2 sqds for supplementing our exsisting fleet and to bolster numbers against the 150 su 30's in service with india by then. This should be spaced out over a period 8 yrs as not ot burden the country and financially.

if we do go for the gripen we should also try to buy the f404 volvo copy used in the gripen for our S7's THIS I Think is the Key Reason the Paf is considering the gripen as they want the f404 in our S7's which will make it a overwhelmingly efficent and cheaper plane to operate as the paf can have a common engine on almost the whole fleet, the second advantage to the paf will be the Awa&c deal which will surely become cheaper after a gripen order.
the thrid but not so obvios reason might be swedish help on the future versions of S7s in avionics and radars.


http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/gripen/ Lots of good info

[omear]

Future Swedish air force versions and upgrades
The JAS 39A/Bs were planned to be upgraded as follows, but as the new, smaller, organization does not need all ordered Gripens, the older ones will not be upgraded.

larger, 150 x 200 mm colour MFDs
enhanced warning and countermeasure systems
reduced radar signature
an imaging IR sensor, IR-OTIS, in a ball in front of the canopy which can be used to search for, track and imagine airborne targets as well as searching for and identifying ground targets, this in conjunction with the helmet mounted sight, it also will function as a FLIR navigation sensor
further developed PS-05/A radar
upgraded computers and databus
new data cartridge
a new IR AAM missile, IRIS-T
helmet mounted display, Guardian by Pilkington/Cumulus (Denel)
enhancements to the RM 12 engine consisting of a new turbine, improved flameholder and new FADEC by Lockheed Martin, General Electric and Volvo Aero Corporation
new navigation and landing system
The JAS 39C/Ds will in addition to this

get further signature management measures
get two new, dedicated Amraam missile stations under the fuselage, closely spaced, staggered, in place of the centreline external tank
get the rear seat position upgraded for mission commander and weapon system operator functions and not just be a pilot station
get stronger landing gear permitting increased take off weight
permit increased G limits with heavy loads
be prepared for, but not all fitted with, aerial refuelling equipment
The last 20 batch 2 aircraft will get the Ericsson Saab Avionics EP-17 Mk3 colour displays, EP-17 Mk4 with a digital mass memory (replacing analog video recorder) and other improvements which will be fitted to batch 3 and export Gripens.

As internationalisation measures, Swedish Gripens (at least some) will

be adapted to foreign ground support equipment
get international ILS and IFF (NATO Mode 4)
be prepared for international map data bases
have onboard oxygen generating equipment
be able to present speed in knot and altitude in feet (as opposed to km/h and m as is standard in the Swedish air force)
Possible future upgrades and technology demonstrator
Initial funding for a phased array radar has been approved.


Future Development(i can be developed into a 4.75 gen fighter easily if not a full 5 gen.

FMV, the Swedish Defence Materials administration and the formal customer on behalf of the air force, will fund the conversion of one of the prototypes into a flying technology demonstrator. It will be ready in 2000-2002 and be used to study new weapons, avionics and propulsion.

Regarding propulsion, a more powerful engine (F414 or EJ200) may be fitted and it will fly with thrust vectoring, which would allow for a future tailless version.

As for radar, Ericsson Microwave Systems is planning on flying demonstrator of its AESA radar, on its own or with partners. It's planned to scan +-60 deg electronically and 60 deg mechanically in azimut, permitting scanning over a 240 deg arc and electronically +-60 deg up and downwards.

The Swedish air force is planning on having precision guided munition capability such as laser guided bombs operational on Gripen by 2003. This is a result of studies regarding what capabilities are required for international peace keeping missions.

[araf]

Assalam,
The reasoning behind the leasing idea is that we can operate a token number of gripens while we negoiate for a badass, jas 39x I mean the eurojet instead of the 404, active array radar,irst, the plane of our dreams, also we can see if it is really as good as we need it to be and see if if fits in with are doctrine (ie can it drop nukes ) and the numbers we would need for a large purchase the mix between 2 seaters and single, the governments behind the gripen (uk and sweden) should be able to offer us some finance arrangement to reduce the hit on the purse with long term repayments and here's the pipedream get together with malaysia and give dassualt or saab bae-systems an offer to die for (the malays are looking for a few more birds as well). I've got a pretty detailed article from flight about the plans for the Gripen and believe me very few planes are in the same league in terms of bang per buck

Kashif

[Gul Khan]

So after all this you guyz still trust America!!! Hmmmmm!! why.. last 20 years of American shafting was not enough asking for more. What makes you think America will not do it again.

[H Khan]

Personally, I feel this Gripen project is a wild card. At least with F-16 and Mirage 2000 PAF can move its resources around to get things moving but Sweden and the US and EU involment sounds very scary.

Next post I'll post more specs between Mirage 2000 and Gripen.

[Rauf]

Grip woul dbe a better cjoice for PAF then Mirage-5/9, however as a Joint operational aircraft for ME(KSA, etc) and PAF it is not. However 80+ million per copy of M2K-5/9 or 26 million per copy of GriP, well Grif is normally a better choice. Almost 1:3 ratio. Grip is designted as very short take off landing aircraft, operateable from highways.

Read in news about PA cost of operations between $100-350 million/month tab that US has to pick up. That tab comes upto $600-1500 total so far, consider that a big discussion during the upcomming summit. Issue for US is how to get that tab passed through congress/senate, with limited funds available to White House, things can get interesting, option for US could be (again word of caution could be) to release some F-16s to PAF.

PAF should rather opt for E-2, forget E-3s, a much better buy, and probably push for UAE to purchase few as well to guarentie spare parts(spare part would be same issue as if Grip is purchased.)

But the thing to watch is 600-1500 million tab that has accumulated so far . Very interesting. With US no objection for Israeli Phalcon system to baboons, there should not be much objection on E-2 defensive system.

T T F N

[Mohammed Ali]

Interesting debate guys, but there are a few more things that need to be said. The biggest hurdle with the Gripen is the US/UK policy towards Pakistan. I don't want to see PAF's next generation fighter sitting on ground due to lack of spares, and I think there is ample precident from both these countries in this regard. With half of our naval ASW helo fleet grounded just a few months ago due to lack of spares, I don't see how we can trust these people again. I have nothing against the Swedes, but the US and UK both have a strong influence in their defence industry, so I would consider Gripen (no matter how much I like the plane) a no go.
There are other things as well to consider, and that is the time frame. If Pakistan opts for the Gripen, how soon are we going to get the planes in Pakistan. Not any time soon. South Africa will start recieving its Gripens from 2007 onwards, if I remember correctly. That means we will have to wait till the end of the decade to get the numbers we want and a lot can happen during that period.
Also, the Gripen is not a cheap plane either, and $26 million unit cost is too optimistic. Plus its multirole capability does not help us if we wont have the weapons that make it so good (namely the AMRAAM and whatever cruise missile they use.

Mirage 2000-5 on the other hand offers a lot of similar capabilities, though its more costly. But I would rather pay more and still be able to use the machine when I need it the most. We already have a lot of experience flying Mirage 2000s and maintaining them wouldnt be a problem, and neither would the spares. When was the last time we heard of our Allouettes or Pumas or Atlantics being grounded because of spare shortages. Infact, we have a better chance of getting local production of components from France than from Sweden. Plus the weapon options are very good as well since 2000-5 does come with a BVR missile we can get. Ofcourse the 2000-5mkII version is even better but more pricier.

There is nothing wrong with pitting the Swedes against the French to bring the prices down, but we should still go for the Mirage 2000.

Oh, and we can forget about three digit numbers. We will be lucky if we can get ~60 high tech planes for now.

[H Khan]

Cost per aircraft between Mirage 2000-5 and Gripen is not significant. Gripen is going at close to $26 million on a "lease" aircraft. Meaning that all the maintenance and support system will be provided by the Saab. But if you buy a Gripen than it is a totally different story.


All things considered, I think PAF should buy Mirage 2000 given that long and reliable military relationship Pakistan has with France.

Lets see what happens with President Musharraf visit to the White House on Feb 13 if the US release F-16 to Pakistan. even though if the US sells more F-16s to Pakistan, PAF should also try to get Mirage 2000 as an excellent deterrence.

[Mohammed Ali]

also, the touted 80 million price tag of the mirage includes not just the plane but also its support equipment, weapons and training.