PAF Transport Aircraft fleet

[yasser]

OK, so all our 4 CN-235s will be delivered by the end of this month
we have another 6 C-130s bringing the fleet up to about 18 aircraft and we have 3 707s for VIP/Transport

Now that PIA is inducting 777, what is the chance for PAF to get the rest of PIAs 707s and convert them in to air refulers/transports!?

[Boota]

Quote: Originally Posted by yasser OK, so all our 4 CN-235s will be delivered by the end of this month we have another 6 C-130s bringing the fleet up to about 18 aircraft and we have 3 707s for VIP/Transport Now that PIA is inducting 777, what is the chance for PAF to get the rest of PIAs 707s and convert them in to air refulers/transports!?

I don't think PIA has any 707s left. It has Airbus A300 which are currently being replaced with leased A310s

[H Khan]

Most likely the 8 An-32 Cline + 4 CN-235 + 18 C-130, + 2 B-707 + 3 Y-12= 35. Starting to look good.

[Sultan]

What about the 4 Il 78s? Have they been confirmed? IMHO the Il 78s are pretty much in the same category as the C130s. As I see it (and Im may be wrong) the PAFs interest in the Il78 stems for the need for a heavy lift aircraft. If this is the case why not go Ukrainian and purchase 2-3 An124s?

H Khan,

Do you happen to know what the acquisition strategy for the PAF transport fleet is?

Because from the acquisitions revealed to us it seems that as far as aircraft in the medium lift category is concerned the PAF is looking at inducting surplus aircrafts due to iteing cost effective and relatively quick to put into operation i.e. surplus C130s

However as far as light- medium lift category is concerned the PAF has adopted a different strategy and are inducting new build aircraft Cn235, An32 and Y12s.

Is this strategy to be pursued in the long term or do you know of any PAF plans to invest in a new build medium lift aircraft to replace the C130s once funding becomes available?

Some options include the Chinese Y8X (?) (not the current one in PLAAF service but the one that they are allegedly working on with Antonov assistance) or the An70 (if we can secure a third party partnership and the funds to re kick start the project since the Russians have pretty much dropped out.

[Murad]

Quote: Originally Posted by H Khan Most likely the 8 An-32 Cline + 4 CN-235 + 18 C-130, + 2 B-707 + 3 Y-12= 35. Starting to look good.

It's great to see PAF augment its airlift/transport capacity but having 5 different types of aircraft in a fleet this size has got be a burden with regards to maintenance and training. There must be a big price difference between new build AN-32 vs, the CN-295, otherwise it probably would be much better to get the later given the impending induction of CN-235.

[yasser]

Quote: Originally Posted by Murad It's great to see PAF augment its airlift/transport capacity but having 5 different types of aircraft in a fleet this size has got be a burden with regards to maintenance and training. There must be a big price difference between new build AN-32 vs, the CN-295, otherwise it probably would be much better to get the later given the impending induction of CN-235.

Ideally we should standardize on 707 for VIP/long range transport, C-130 for medium lift and CN-235 for light duties, thats all we reallly need, Pakistan is a compact country, our army and air force really dont require more then 30 airplanes, its not a long train or road journey from say Islamabad to Lahore, or from Lahore to Indian border......

[nasim]

I would think a strong transport fleet is crucial given the fact that india's primary goal in any full scale war will be cutting off north south transport routes near the sindh-punjab border. Land routes are easy and cheaper to carry supplies and equipment across from built up areas out of karachi to other major cities in sindh or islamabad and other major cities in punjab. But the indian have a clear run from the international border to the indus facing nothing but desert in front of them. Pakistans major vulnerability in this area so having the capability to transport around that is vital in the likely case where that desert region becomes a battle field. The best scenario in my opinion would be for a transport fleet that could support PA even if north-south land routes east of indus are not secure.

I would agree that having too many types is not ideal but I dont think Pakistan has a choice since most acquisitions these days are based on affordibility and maintanence of what is already here.

[Sultan]

Well I suppose instead of acquiring the Cn235 and An32 we could have gone for the Cn295s if standardising the light-medium aircraft was a priority. But even though the Cn295 would fulfill the role of both the Cn235 and An32 its not an option.

IMO if the PAF does not commit to increasing the Cn235 fleet the platform most probably is intended for a specialised role ( Elint/Sigint?/AAR). One has aready been converted to a VIP config. and thats the one we know of.

I reckon the PAF is on the right track with its induction strategy although I still think that eventually the C130s need to go. God knows when we will be able to induct the next batch of surplus C130s.

[uazim]

And what safeguards and controls will be in place to stop the abuse of these transport aircrafts like ferrying Mehndi parties and fetching Pann from Karachi.

[Boota]

Quote: Originally Posted by uazim And what safeguards and controls will be in place to stop the abuse of these transport aircrafts like ferrying Mehndi parties and fetching Pann from Karachi.

What are the basis for your statement. Airforce rules allows that if there is a routine cross country cargo/ferry/navigation training flight and space is available officers and their families can be accomodated on a first serve first come basis. It is hard to imagine that a senior officer even the CAS can order a plane for exclusive personal use. All units work within a close ended budget and an unauthorised flight like the one you suggest can really really mess up the numbers which will be difficult to hide

[Rafaqat]

Uazim,

YOu have probably got it confused with an event in Indian air force reagrding the use of a transport plane. Allegedly, lobsters and cake were transported for some officers ?????
Could well have been a false rumour too !!!

[uazim]

Quote: Originally Posted by Boota Masih What are the basis for your statement. Airforce rules allows that if there is a routine cross country cargo/ferry/navigation training flight and space is available officers and their families can be accomodated on a first serve first come basis. It is hard to imagine that a senior officer even the CAS can order a plane for exclusive personal use. All units work within a close ended budget and an unauthorised flight like the one you suggest can really really mess up the numbers which will be difficult to hide

Then you guys are not aware of Mrs. Anwer Shamim

[uazim]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rafaqat Uazim, YOu have probably got it confused with an event in Indian air force reagrding the use of a transport plane. Allegedly, lobsters and cake were transported for some officers ????? Could well have been a false rumour too !!!

Rafaqat,

It is not a rumor and just like all official vehicle, PAF transport fleet is/was abused by higher ranking officials, of course on paper everything is legit. And now with more aircrafts available, there will be more abuse unless checked by stringent checks. And not everyone is angel in PAF.

[Gul Khan]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rafaqat Uazim, YOu have probably got it confused with an event in Indian air force reagrding the use of a transport plane. Allegedly, lobsters and cake were transported for some officers ????? Could well have been a false rumour too !!!

Ah yes and the Indian romeo who used Indian AirFart helicopter to drop gifts and flowers on his girlfriends house just to impress her... Very impressive indeed given that he did not crash the thing on her house.

[Boota]

Quote: Originally Posted by uazim Then you guys are not aware of Mrs. Anwer Shamim

I know of Anwar Shamim and his horses among other things. It was 20 years ago and the story still circulates how things should not be done. Shamim's period was the darkest period of the PAF. He was publically dishonored and even today he is not able to show his face in the public. Anybody trying to emulate him these days would be extremly stupid.

[uazim]

Quote: Originally Posted by Boota Masih I know of Anwar Shamim and his horses among other things. It was 20 years ago and the story still circulates how things should not be done. Shamim's period was the darkest period of the PAF. He was publically dishonored and even today he is not able to show his face in the public. Anybody trying to emulate him these days would be extremly stupid.

It may not be at the same scale but it is still going on, what I am suggesting is that we have very limited resources and we should use them very carefully.

[H Khan]

Uazim,

Everyone in any organization be it private or governmental they abuse the system. It happens in PA, PN, PAF, PIA, PR, SIA, Air Lanka, Emirates, British Rail, etc., it happens. People who work in any organization are ordinary people who have needs like ours and since they work there they know how procedures can be worked for their benefits.

I am not condoning this practice by any means but it happens.

[yasser]

Guys
Lets stick to the subject, I think its criminal that we have not converted some 707s or C-130s to air refuellers yet, the cost would be small compared to the capability it would give the PAF......

[nasim]

The need for these aircraft is obvious. One should not refuse to fill this need because of a fear they may be abused. It is up to the military to ensure they are not abused and up to your representatives who have a voice in the capital to complain when they see fraud. It would not be good to find your self in need of a capability that was refused on fears of not being able to monitor and have sufficient oversight of it.

In my opinion, when there was large amounts of flooding within pakistan last year, I was surprised to see reports of areas that were called inaccesible to aid provisions given the fact that pakistan should be able to reach any point in sindh and punjab by air. Mountains in the north and and west are one thing, but the plains should be easy to fly in and out of. These sorts of tools signify and demonstrate the strength and forsight of a government best in times of need and emergency. In those desperate moments that pop up unexpected and the government finds itself helpless, that is when people start thinking of what they give to the government and in there time of need what their government is not giving them.

I am all for the strengthening of the transport arm because this has the most bearing on emergency civilian capabilities in those times you dont expect it.

[Noman]

Quote: Originally Posted by yasser Guys Lets stick to the subject, I think its criminal that we have not converted some 707s or C-130s to air refuellers yet, the cost would be small compared to the capability it would give the PAF......

How about the cost of converting all the fighters to support refuelling ? Providing they can be converted at all, that is!

[yasser]

Quote: Originally Posted by Noman How about the cost of converting all the fighters to support refuelling ? Providing they can be converted at all, that is!

F-17 will have this capability...

[uazim]

Quote: Originally Posted by H Khan Uazim, Everyone in any organization be it private or governmental they abuse the system. It happens in PA, PN, PAF, PIA, PR, SIA, Air Lanka, Emirates, British Rail, etc., it happens. People who work in any organization are ordinary people who have needs like ours and since they work there they know how procedures can be worked for their benefits. I am not condoning this practice by any means but it happens.

We should not accept it becuase it happens. And I totally agree with you that these ordinary people have needs like us and they take advantage of the system. But there is difference, for example some people take a fake sick day to save their vacation time and CEO will bribe the board and board grants him 4 extra week of vacation time. Coming back to our topic, it is very strange though that our junior officers and jawans' are less corrupt ( may be they dont get oppertunity) than the senior cadre.

[Usman S.]

Quote: Originally Posted by uazim It may not be at the same scale but it is still going on, what I am suggesting is that we have very limited resources and we should use them very carefully.

Please enlighten me (and the others) how this is ‘still going on’ by giving some examples. And since you said ‘still going on’ I am also interested to know if and when in the past it happened. For example I would like to know when Mrs. Shamim utilized the C-130 and for what reason and in what book and magazine this story was published (and if your source is some post in some other forum, point that out). If you can not find some hard source (book, magazine, newspaper etc.) about that story then feel free to point out any other incident from the days of AM Perry Keene to CAS PAF AM Saadat. If you are recommending tighter controls over PAF transport fleet then first please make a solid case by stating some examples why and how the current controls/rules are not effective and then give your suggestion on how to improve them? If you are breaking-away from the topic by bringing in some politics/unrelated stuff then at least by using some solid arguments make it nice, that is useful to read – what are two liners worth that everyone already knows?

[uazim]

Quote: Originally Posted by Usman Shabbir Please enlighten me (and the others) how this is ‘still going on’ by giving some examples. And since you said ‘still going on’ I am also interested to know if and when in the past it happened. For example I would like to know when Mrs. Shamim utilized the C-130 and for what reason and in what book and magazine this story was published (and if your source is some post in some other forum, point that out). If you can not find some hard source (book, magazine, newspaper etc.) about that story then feel free to point out any other incident from the days of AM Perry Keene to CAS PAF AM Saadat. If you are recommending tighter controls over PAF transport fleet then first please make a solid case by stating some examples why and how the current controls/rules are not effective and then give your suggestion on how to improve them? If you are breaking-away from the topic by bringing in some politics/unrelated stuff then at least by using some solid arguments make it nice, that is useful to read – what are two liners worth that everyone already knows?

A person like you who know PAF so well from inside, it is very easy to find it out. As a matter of fact you might know some stuff which many commoner like me wouldnot know
If you dont want to believe it is your choice but I know what I am saying and it is not without merit.

[Rafaqat]

Quote: Originally Posted by uazim A person like you who know PAF so well from inside, it is very easy to find it out. As a matter of fact you might know some stuff which many commoner like me wouldnot know If you dont want to believe it is your choice but I know what I am saying and it is not without merit.

Uazim,
I think the main point is : You have made a point but without a solid argument to go with it. Surely if you are aware of wrong doings i.e through media or otherwise, then you need to point everyone towards it. What you have effectively stated is "Surely xyz must be happening in PAF" ... which might well be true, but criticism cant be based on such assumptions alone.

Yasser :
Do you really feel that PAF has an urgent requirement for Air to air refuelling ? if so, on what basis ?

Regards,
Rafaqat