Yom-Kippur War - need info

[KumarM]

The following is an excerpt from a commentary on: http://www.tehelka.com/channels/comm...m052402nuc.htm

Please note that it is not the commentary that I am interested in analyzing. There's specific reference to events in the 1973 Yom-Kippur war. I have highlighted those references for which I need confirmation as well as any other information that might be around. I know of only the USS Liberty incident in which Israel actually attacked US interest directly but was not aware of its desire and attempt to shoot down the SR-71. Does anyone have any other info?

I have highlighted another part -- regarding the israeli losses which might be of interest to some forum members.

Quote: In the early days of the Yom Kippur war of 1973 and incident occurred which tells a great deal about how the game of nuclear diplomacy is played. The sudden and successful attack by Egyptian troops under the command of Gen. Saaduddin Shazli not only put the Egyptians back on the Sinai Peninsula but also unveiled a new generation of Soviet weapons and tactics to match. At the northern end of Israel a Syrian armored attack under Gen. Mustafa Tlas was threatening to push the surprised Israelis down the slopes of the Golan Heights. In just the first three days of the conflict the highly regarded Israeli Air Force lost over forty fighter aircraft and a huge number of tanks to the new generation of Soviet anti-aircraft and anti-tank missiles. The panicked Israelis turned to the USA for assistance but found them reluctant. Both, President Richard Nixon and his National Security Advisor, Henry Kissinger, till then were of the opinion that a degree of battlefield reversal was needed to get an increasingly intransigent Israel to the conference table. Caught, in a manner of speaking, between the devil and the deep sea, the Israelis then played their nuclear card. US surveillance satellites and high-flying reconnaissance aircraft suddenly began to pick up unusually heightened activity around the Israel's nuclear facility at Dimona in the Negev desert. The Israeli Defense Minister, Moshe Dayan, while imploring Kissinger to start the airlift of urgently needed weapons and military technical assistance told him about how desperate their situation actually was and had already hinted that Israel might have to resort to nuclear weapons to halt the Arab armies. The alarmed Americans sent a SR-71 Blackbird reconnaissance aircraft fitted with special sensors to detect nuclear material over Dimona. The SR-71 capable of sustained speeds in excess of Mach 3 and flying at altitudes of over 70,000 feet, was then and presumably still is invulnerable to any jet interceptor or anti-aircraft missile. This successor to the U-2 spy plane even regularly over flew the Soviet Union unscathed and to the great annoyance of the Russians. Yet when the SR-71 was beginning its run over Dimona, the Israelis scrambled a flight of F-4 Phantoms to intercept the Blackbird. Both, the SR-71 pilot and American sigint ships snooping nearby heard the Israeli flight commanders reporting to the ground controller that the US spy plane was sighted and heard him in turn urgently order the F-4's to shoot down the Blackbird. Even as the Israeli aircraft tried vainly to shoot it down the SR-71 made its run over Dimona airfield and its sensors picked up the signature of nuclear material on a bomb conveyor apparently loading an Israeli fighter-bomber. Whether the nuclear flare registered was from an actual nuclear weapon or radioactive material in a container to simulate a weapon will never be known. To the advantage of the Israelis, the Americans read this as preparations for an imminent nuclear attack. Would the Soviets sit quietly when their allies are subjected to a nuclear attack would have been the immediate thought? Was this going to be the beginning of WW III? Within minutes President Nixon was on the line to Golda Meir telling her that a massive US airlift bearing much needed weapons and military advisors was ordered and that supply would begin within hours. As it happened US military advisors were able to develop tactics and devise electronic jammers to fob off the Soviet SAM missiles. From the fifth day onwards Israeli aircraft losses were significantly down and the tide of the battle began to turn. By the thirteenth day an Israeli thrust under Maj. Gen. Ariel Sharon had crossed the Suez and had begun threatening to encircle Shazli's advancing army on the Sinai. Only a Soviet threat to the Americans that their troops would physically join the battle with all "available" weapons compelled the Americans to force the Israelis to accept a cease-fire. Thus, twice in two weeks the threat of nuclear escalation had the desired outcomes for the parties involved. .... end excerpt

[Ash]

Quote: Originally posted by KumarM The following is an excerpt from a commentary on: http://www.tehelka.com/channels/comm...m052402nuc.htm Please note that it is not the commentary that I am interested in analyzing. There's specific reference to events in the 1973 Yom-Kippur war. I have highlighted those references for which I need confirmation as well as any other information that might be around. I know of only the USS Liberty incident in which Israel actually attacked US interest directly but was not aware of its desire and attempt to shoot down the SR-71. Does anyone have any other info? I have highlighted another part -- regarding the israeli losses which might be of interest to some forum members.

The question is did Israelis have the electronic capabilities at that time of intercepting an SR-71 flight run? I doubt it, unless they were given pre warning via a spy that this run was about to take place.

One of the reasons why the Israelis lost number of aircraft’s in a few days, if memory is correct they even shot down some of there own aircraft, this was all due to the electronics involved in the 73 war.

In Saying that the tactics that the IAF were taught by the American similar tactics they used to counter SAM missiles in the Vietnam war or the Korean war, if not both.

On the ground the Israelis commanders complained that one needed to be Einstein to use Israelis tanks in combat, they were that sophisticated to use. With out a question of doubt, they had superior tanks. The Israelis were not planned for an Arab country capable of using similar tactics or using flare or some kind of ingenuity in the combat field, which the Egyptian army managed to display to a degree.

Israelis new that a attack was imminent in 73, if one cares to go through that records, Israelis felt that they could hold off the Egyptian attack, as the Egyptian army had more a distance to cover before it threatened natural boarders. Therefore IDF stationed majority of their resources towards the Golan Heights, against the Syrians. That is they moved tanks and artillery units normally placed on the Egyptian front to the Syrian front.

The biggest mistake that IDF made was that they under estimated the capability of the Arab armed forces at that time. Now they over estimate by a very large margin



Salaam


Ash

[imran]

Back in 1988 when i had some months I studied the 1973 war. Something I still remember is that the Egyptian Army held many exercises where they took their army in an offensive positon near the Sinai. But allways retreated because it was only an exercise. So when they actually attacked the Israeli army was surprised as they thought it was just an another exercise.

The incidence of putting on the nuclear options can also be read in the book: "The samson option" (If i remember the title correct) and i thing the writer actually got the pulitzer price for it!!
The writer states that Israel actually wanted to show to the American that they were very serious of using their nuclear option. They wanted the americans to intervene -as they actually did. If this is correct then no need to try to shoot down the Blackbird.

[Lazarus]

I would not attach much credence to Tehelka’s “cloak & dagger” approach to Israel’s Nuclear option in 1973.

The US did not need the Balckbirds to find out that Israelis were about to use the nukes: Israeli PM Golda Mier had sent an explicit message to Nixon, “Save Israel or we’ll use nukes”; By this stage Americans knew that Israelis had close to a dozen nukes.

My source is Anwar Sadaat’s Auto-Bio that I read some years back; Sadaat discusses this point extensively (partly because he wanted to explain how the Egyptians almost managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory).


>>>>To the advantage of the Israelis, the Americans read this as preparations for an imminent nuclear attack.<<<<

I do not buy this bit: the Israeli PM had already EXPLICILTY told the US of Israel’s intention to go nuclear unless Israeli demands were met. Text book nuke black-mail !!!!!!

BTW, Nixon was the last US president to stand-up to the Jewish lobby. After him (probably because of what happened to him) no US President has dared to take the Jewish lobby on.

Were it not for the Israeli nuke-blackmail Nixon would definitely not have helped the Israeils to the extent to which he in the end did.

[Saad Hasan]

I think people give Israelis too much credit here and I doubt anybody remembers the fact the the great Hashmite, progressive and modern King of Jordan, personally flew in his helicopter just prior to the Arab attack and met with Golda Meir, the omnipresent mossad was snooping the meeting. And this great exponent of pan-arabism proceeded to warn the Israelis of the attack, and of course Meir did not believe Husein, but Mossad went ahead and issued the warning to the military command. So there was no surprise element involved here.

And now to the other exponent of pan-arabism and world peace, Sadat, after occupying and buffer in Sinai refused to thrust ahead, despite Syria's repeated request to do so, since Israelis were gaining an upper hand in the golan heights. Sadat refused because he did not want to move his forces out of the SAM umbrella. Therefore, ill conceived and short sighted and incompetent decision like these lead to the arab demise, not because of Israel's superior tacitcs or valour.

[Ash]

Quote: Originally posted by Saad Hasan I think people give Israelis too much credit here and I doubt anybody remembers the fact the the great Hashmite, progressive and modern King of Jordan, personally flew in his helicopter just prior to the Arab attack and met with Golda Meir, the omnipresent mossad was snooping the meeting. And this great exponent of pan-arabism proceeded to warn the Israelis of the attack, and of course Meir did not believe Husein, but Mossad went ahead and issued the warning to the military command. So there was no surprise element involved here. And now to the other exponent of pan-arabism and world peace, Sadat, after occupying and buffer in Sinai refused to thrust ahead, despite Syria's repeated request to do so, since Israelis were gaining an upper hand in the golan heights. Sadat refused because he did not want to move his forces out of the SAM umbrella. Therefore, ill conceived and short sighted and incompetent decision like these lead to the arab demise, not because of Israel's superior tacitcs or valour.

I am glad that many on this forum do not fall for the myth that Israeli did not know that attack was eminent in 73. It was very obvious by just observing form the Golan Heights that Syrian were up to something, it was very obvious from the very departure of Russian Military advisers particularly from Egypt that something was indeed happening. The only question was when. It is also obvious the leave was cancelled for many IDF military units’ days before Yom Kipper. What the Israelis did not expect was that the Arab armies were capable of achieving what they managed to achieve.

The Nuclear option is more than feasible blackmail to get the American to help Israel, considering that the Israelis are willing to go to any lengths to achieve there aims., one has to just look at the history of Dir Yassin.


Salaam


Ash

[Saladin]

Random thoughts on the Ramadan/Yom Kippur war,

Suprise

Many of the arab preparations were masked by deceptive and purposefully contradictory moves.Some examples of these moves,
1)Army officers in Egypt were allowed to go on leave and pilgrimage.
2)Al Ahram , the egyptian newspaper reported that the Egyptian defence minister was preparing for a visit by the Romanian minister of defence.(the israelis read and scrutinised Al Ahram, each day which they got in Cyprus for any useful info)
3)Someone mentioned the Golan, well the syrian tanks there were in a defensive posture until the last 24 hours before the attack on 6th October so that did come as a suprise of sorts.
4)On the canal mines were layed in some sectors which led the israelis to conclude that the egyptains were actually in a defensive mode.(but mines were being removed from other sectors)

Dayan himself mentions in his autobiography that he got the final word that war was breaking out from his top spy in Egypt only the day before and that too indicated the wrong timing for the attack, at 1800 hours instead of 1400 hours at which it occured.

On whether there was suprise or not and the jewish state's lack of preparedness were scrutinised in detail by the Agranat Report(by Justice Moshe Agranat).That report is something akin to the Hamoodur Rahman report on the 71 war in Pakistan.Its got a lot of credibility and what it says is that while the raw data indicating war may have been available, there was'nt competent analysis to link up all the dots to say that war was inevitable.The Agranat report recommended the sacking of the Military Intelligence chief Avraham Zeira and that was done.

Nuclear weapons
What i recall reading is that the israeli movement of missiles and nukes was spotted by satellites and no SR71 was involved.It was anyway just a scare tactic to get more weapons via the americans
rather than any intention of real use.Golda Meir had sent a top general by the name of Chaim Bar Lev to the front and his report was that while the situation was bad it was not irreversible and Israel would still be able to hold its own in the end.

The main danger for Israel anyway in that early stage of the war was not on the Egyptain front as there the Sinai desert provided a buffer of several hundred miles but on the Golan where Syrian plans were actually to thrust into a part of Israel proper and the buffer was very small.The danger however passed by the third day as the syrian armoured force was halted and forced to retreat mainly by air attacks.

Sorry for the long post but the 73 war is pet topic of mine.More when i have the time(and if some one is interested )

[Ash]

Quote: Originally posted by Saladin Random thoughts on the Ramadan/Yom Kippur war, Suprise Many of the arab preparations were masked by deceptive and purposefully contradictory moves.Some examples of these moves, 1)Army officers in Egypt were allowed to go on leave and pilgrimage. 2)Al Ahram , the egyptian newspaper reported that the Egyptian defence minister was preparing for a visit by the Romanian minister of defence.(the israelis read and scrutinised Al Ahram, each day which they got in Cyprus for any useful info) 3)Someone mentioned the Golan, well the syrian tanks there were in a defensive posture until the last 24 hours before the attack on 6th October so that did come as a suprise of sorts. 4)On the canal mines were layed in some sectors which led the israelis to conclude that the egyptains were actually in a defensive mode.(but mines were being removed from other sectors) Dayan himself mentions in his autobiography that he got the final word that war was breaking out from his top spy in Egypt only the day before and that too indicated the wrong timing for the attack, at 1800 hours instead of 1400 hours at which it occured. On whether there was suprise or not and the jewish state's lack of preparedness were scrutinised in detail by the Agranat Report(by Justice Moshe Agranat).That report is something akin to the Hamoodur Rahman report on the 71 war in Pakistan.Its got a lot of credibility and what it says is that while the raw data indicating war may have been available, there was'nt competent analysis to link up all the dots to say that war was inevitable.The Agranat report recommended the sacking of the Military Intelligence chief Avraham Zeira and that was done. Nuclear weapons What i recall reading is that the israeli movement of missiles and nukes was spotted by satellites and no SR71 was involved.It was anyway just a scare tactic to get more weapons via the americans rather than any intention of real use.Golda Meir had sent a top general by the name of Chaim Bar Lev to the front and his report was that while the situation was bad it was not irreversible and Israel would still be able to hold its own in the end. The main danger for Israel anyway in that early stage of the war was not on the Egyptain front as there the Sinai desert provided a buffer of several hundred miles but on the Golan where Syrian plans were actually to thrust into a part of Israel proper and the buffer was very small.The danger however passed by the third day as the syrian armoured force was halted and forced to retreat mainly by air attacks. Sorry for the long post but the 73 war is pet topic of mine.More when i have the time(and if some one is interested )

Its well put, please continue.

If memory is correct was the line, which was to hold of the Egyptian attack, called the "Bar Lev Line" The idea behind this line was to explode oil or something like that. To over come this the Egyptian put cement on top, to prevent this from happening?

Saying all this, what I have read was also that the Syrian managed to penetrate or have security details of the Golan Heights via a Jewish Spy, with communist tendency, the Israelis say they managed to change much of the details before the attack on the Golan Heights.

I have also read, but this is Jewish sources, saying that Israelis did have advance information, particularly in regards to the Golan Heights, thereby moving the relevant artillery and tank units from the Sinai to the Golan front day if not days before.


Salaam


Ash

[Saladin]

[quote]Originally posted by Ash
[b]

[

If memory is correct was the line, which was to hold of the Egyptian attack, called the "Bar Lev Line" The idea behind this line was to explode oil or something like that. To over come this the Egyptian put cement on top, to prevent this from happening?

The israelis had a pumping station and a pipeline which was to flood the canal with napalm/petrol if there was any egyptian moves at crossing the canal. A day before the crossing the egyptians put no less than 15 commando patrols into the Sinai for various recce and sabotage operations, one of the commando patrols sabotaged the pumping station and on the next day egyptian troops capyured the engineer and his crew at the pumping station.

Saying all this, what I have read was also that the Syrian managed to penetrate or have security details of the Golan Heights via a Jewish Spy, with communist tendency, the Israelis say they managed to change much of the details before the attack on the Golan Heights.

The Syrians had got details not of the entire Golan but of a certain defensive strongpoint on Mount Hermon.The spy who had given them was a israeli jew (a sabra as they are called).The spy was caught and it caused great consternation in Israel.

Mount Hermon was captured on the first day of the war by heli borne syrian commandos who captured one of the war's most valuable loot; cutting edge electronic surveillance equipment which was given to the russians.

I have also read, but this is Jewish sources, saying that Israelis did have advance information, particularly in regards to the Golan Heights, thereby moving the relevant artillery and tank units from the Sinai to the Golan front day if not days before.

If all the israeli artillery and armour had been in place according to plan in the Golan it would have been a massive ambush/slaughter at the opening day of the war.The israelis were not completely convinced of war so they had moved some units to the Golan expecting perhaps a small syrian incursion.what happened of course was a huge armoured assault which they had not forseen.

A bit of interesting trivia, there are some portions of the Agranat Report which are still classified.There is some speculation that one of those classified portions deal with a visit by King Hussein and the info he gave.

A lot of this is from memory so guys , go easy if there are factual errors.

Regards

[Ash]

[quote]Originally posted by Saladin
[b]

Quote: Originally posted by Ash [ If memory is correct was the line, which was to hold of the Egyptian attack, called the "Bar Lev Line" The idea behind this line was to explode oil or something like that. To over come this the Egyptian put cement on top, to prevent this from happening? The israelis had a pumping station and a pipeline which was to flood the canal with napalm/petrol if there was any egyptian moves at crossing the canal. A day before the crossing the egyptians put no less than 15 commando patrols into the Sinai for various recce and sabotage operations, one of the commando patrols sabotaged the pumping station and on the next day egyptian troops capyured the engineer and his crew at the pumping station. Saying all this, what I have read was also that the Syrian managed to penetrate or have security details of the Golan Heights via a Jewish Spy, with communist tendency, the Israelis say they managed to change much of the details before the attack on the Golan Heights. The Syrians had got details not of the entire Golan but of a certain defensive strongpoint on Mount Hermon.The spy who had given them was a israeli jew (a sabra as they are called).The spy was caught and it caused great consternation in Israel. Mount Hermon was captured on the first day of the war by heli borne syrian commandos who captured one of the war's most valuable loot; cutting edge electronic surveillance equipment which was given to the russians. I have also read, but this is Jewish sources, saying that Israelis did have advance information, particularly in regards to the Golan Heights, thereby moving the relevant artillery and tank units from the Sinai to the Golan front day if not days before. If all the israeli artillery and armour had been in place according to plan in the Golan it would have been a massive ambush/slaughter at the opening day of the war.The israelis were not completely convinced of war so they had moved some units to the Golan expecting perhaps a small syrian incursion.what happened of course was a huge armoured assault which they had not forseen. A bit of interesting trivia, there are some portions of the Agranat Report which are still classified.There is some speculation that one of those classified portions deal with a visit by King Hussein and the info he gave. A lot of this is from memory so guys , go easy if there are factual errors. Regards

Thanks you have a cleared up a few cob webs, have not looked at the 73 conflict for more than 15 years.


Salaam



Ash