RAF Tornados to take on SU-30s

[yasser]

Guys
HOT NEWS!
This will not be confirmed till next month, but I assume monkey media to the east may start reporting on it soon. Mate of mind in the RAF tells me that they are going to India to "fight" their SU-30MKIs. Also, the RAF Tornado F-3s took on IAF SU-30s in France using AMRAAM, and (his words) "crucified" the Indians. Apprently non of the Indian reporters wanted to talk to the Tornado crews when this happened.
Watch this space.....

On a side note he informed me that NATO nations including the US and UK have a much easier relationship with their Pakistani counter parts then they do with the Indians. Apprently he claims that the Indians attach a "minder" to the RAF crews when they are off duty and follow them everywhere,they are very paranoid about being spied on. PAF let them fly our F-16s....

Finally, his flight instructor at RAF Cranwell was a Pakistani exchange squadron leader who he described as the "living embodiment# of a fighter pilot! He also said that last year when he was do weapons training at RAF Valley on Hwaks, 2 of the instructors where Pakistani.....some of whom helped train Indians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[A.Usman]

brother this is sort of old news........but good to listen again.........

[yasser]

brother this is sort of old news........but good to listen again.........

"Old news"!? The RAF V IAF exercise in India is next month, how can this be old news!?

[Gaf]

This is "new" news to me. Interesting if they are really going to "rollout" the Su30MKI's and not just more Su30MK's. Also, would be interesting to know the rules of engagement, to determine the actual results of this rather than the stage managed affairs of previous encounters that IAF likes to endulge in, for PR "image" management purposes.

Are you sure about PAF pilots training IAF pilots? It seems odd, given that PAF doesnot fly the Hawk, I guess they could have picked up these skills and "passed" them on to the IAF pilots, but i must confess, it sounds very strange to my ears.

[yasser]

This is "new" news to me. Interesting if they are really going to "rollout" the Su30MKI's and not just more Su30MK's. Also, would be interesting to know the rules of engagement, to determine the actual results of this rather than the stage managed affairs of previous encounters that IAF likes to endulge in, for PR "image" management purposes.

Are you sure about PAF pilots training IAF pilots? It seems odd, given that PAF doesnot fly the Hawk, I guess they could have picked up these skills and "passed" them on to the IAF pilots, but i must confess, it sounds very strange to my ears.

Its true, we have am exhange programme with RAF, they have instructors in Pakistan who convert to T-37 on short course, then insteruct our cadets....

[ImranD]

yes he is right the last person to come back from RAF is Flt Lt Faisal Shaukat. he was there for 3 years.

[yasser]

Just so you all know. This news is now official. In this months Air Forces Monthly!

43 squadron "Fighting Cocks" will be going to Gwaloir in Oct with one E-3 and one VC-10 and 6 Tornado F3s.

Remember, you heard it here first two months ago!

[Usman S.]

Can not say much about how the BVR fight will go but in close air-to-air combat the Tornadoes will surely get their ass kicked. PAF had evaluated Tornado aircraft many years ago and one PAF pilot commented that 'it is as maneuverable as a brick’!

[yasser]

Can not say much about how the BVR fight will go but in close air-to-air combat the Tornadoes will surely get their ass kicked. PAF had evaluated Tornado aircraft many years ago and one PAF pilot commented that 'it is as maneuverable as a brick’!

True, but RAF are more interested in fighting MIG-29s and SU-30s.

F3 may face these in the future. For long term they are getting Eurofighter.

[zia ul haq]

Asalamo-a-laikum.

F.3 are ASRAAM AMRAAM equipeed aren't they? The ASRAAM are used in conjunction with HMS and there is a very potent data-link between the E.3 AWACS system.

In a gun fight I don't think anybody should be foolish enough to put cash on the F.3s no matter what the odds. A WVR fight would take a very good F.3 pilot to win it, but in the end it depends on what restrictions are placed on the visitors.

We do afterall have to remember what happened witht he USAF when they went over and the frankly fantastic kill rates the better IAF scored against the USN a couple of years ago purely because of the restrictions placed on USN planes.

It will be interesting to see nevertheless.

[JunaidNasir]

Guys


On a side note he informed me that NATO nations including the US and UK have a much easier relationship with their Pakistani counter parts then they do with the Indians. Apprently he claims that the Indians attach a "minder" to the RAF crews when they are off duty and follow them everywhere,they are very paranoid about being spied on. PAF let them fly our F-16s....

Finally, his flight instructor at RAF Cranwell was a Pakistani exchange squadron leader who he described as the "living embodiment# of a fighter pilot! He also said that last year when he was do weapons training at RAF Valley on Hwaks, 2 of the instructors where Pakistani.....some of whom helped train Indians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow mate, now thats news and aint that interesting, PAF instructures teaching indians, wonder how the indians felt.

good on yah mate for sharing it.

[Tipu]

Wow mate, now thats news and aint that interesting, PAF instructures teaching indians, wonder how the indians felt.

good on yah mate for sharing it.

As i know indians they are very pregmatic, they would not have problem learning from Pakistanis, at other hand, I am wondering who our instructors feeling training Indian???

[SSAAD]

The same goes for the PAF. In a professional setting, there is no bar in learning from each other.

[yasser]

HOT NEWS!

RAF 43sqd, and I qoute "set the task on their Mirages, MIGs and Sukhois" at long range with a blow torch and a pair of pliers"

IAF pilots had major communication problems, AWACS not only helped in BVR ambushes but also disrputed comminications between IAF planes

At close range RAF were not allowed to use ASRAAM, sidewinders were used. RAF roughly equalled them at closed range, in long range engagements, it was a neart turkey shoot.

One RAF Flight Lt "shot down" two SU-30s, Both flown by Wing Commanders.
F3 got behind them abd the both broke away IN THE SAME DIRECTION. both kills were by sidewinder.


RAF personel not happy with accommodation or lack of freedom on base.

[JunaidNasir]

HOT NEWS!

RAF 43sqd, and I qoute "set the task on their Mirages, MIGs and Sukhois" at long range with a blow torch and a pair of pliers"

IAF pilots had major communication problems, AWACS not only helped in BVR ambushes but also disrputed comminications between IAF planes

At close range RAF were not allowed to use ASRAAM, sidewinders were used. RAF roughly equalled them at closed range, in long range engagements, it was a neart turkey shoot.

One RAF Flight Lt "shot down" two SU-30s, Both flown by Wing Commanders.
F3 got behind them abd the both broke away IN THE SAME DIRECTION. both kills were by sidewinder.


RAF personel not happy with accommodation or lack of freedom on base.

Good news mate, .

Watch now for banya spin.

[ROMMEL]

Dear ImranD,

Faisal Shaukat was a Sq/Ldr. when he went to York.

Cheers,

[Gaf]

HOT NEWS!

RAF 43sqd, and I qoute "set the task on their Mirages, MIGs and Sukhois" at long range with a blow torch and a pair of pliers"

IAF pilots had major communication problems, AWACS not only helped in BVR ambushes but also disrputed comminications between IAF planes

At close range RAF were not allowed to use ASRAAM, sidewinders were used. RAF roughly equalled them at closed range, in long range engagements, it was a neart turkey shoot.

One RAF Flight Lt "shot down" two SU-30s, Both flown by Wing Commanders.
F3 got behind them abd the both broke away IN THE SAME DIRECTION. both kills were by sidewinder.


RAF personel not happy with accommodation or lack of freedom on base.

Excellent.... Can't wait for the "offical" news.... *** BUT *** it does highlight the VALUE of an AWACS, big time.... "So much" for the WVR performance of the Su30 series..... versus the "Flying Brick".. ie the Tornado...... ;-)

[yasser]

If anything, from what my friend tells me, it came down to the man in the plane.

Whats all the more, he was trained by a PAF flight instructor!

[zia ul haq]

Asalamo-a-laikum.

Well, there you go fellas! If true it just vindicates what I have said all along, the F3 is underrated just because it is not anF-15/F-16.

If you know how to use one properly then you can seriously do some damage.

Now just imagine what would have happened if the IAF were up against Typhoons!!!

I don't think the IAF could have spun that one!!!

[yasser]

This report seems to vindicate what my friend said. E3 gave RAF the edge!

India, Britain conclude joint air exercises with promise of more

Gwalior (Madhya Pradesh), Oct 13 (IANS) Combat jets that were once ranged against each other during the Cold War flew in tandem as the Indian Air Force (IAF) Friday concluded its first joint exercise with its British counterpart with honours even and the promise of many such more exercises.

The IAF's Russian-built SU-30 MKI might have been technologically superior to the British Tornado but the US-built E3D Sentry Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) the Royal Air Force (RAF) fielded ensured its aircraft had that extra edge - and thus there were no winners or losers in Exercise Indradhanush that began here Oct 2 at this sprawling airbase in central India.

"This was a marvellous opportunity to learn each other's procedures, very educative and I hope the start of a burgeoning friendship," Air Vice Marshal Christopher N. Harper, Chief Of Staff (Operations), Strategic Forces of the RAF said at a media interaction here.

"Some would judge this exercise by the number of kills each side achieved but that's not the way to judge this exercise. We flew combined missions because the intention was to test our interoperability," he explained.

"The idea was to familiarise and learn from each other in the air on the ground. It was a great learning experience for both sides, added Air Marshal K.D. Singh, senior air staff officer of the IAF central command that hosted the exercise.

The effort was unique in more ways than one. Not only were mid-air refuelling tankers deployed by both sides for the first time to enable the exercise envelop to a huge 120 km by 60 km, but it was only the second time that an AWACS was seen in operation in Indian airspace.

This was significant as the IAF will begin receiving the first of its three AWACS - an Israeli Phalcon radar mounted on a Russian IL-78 platform - from next year. To this end, the RAF AWACS carried four observers every day of the exercise to familiarise them with the highly sophisticated system.

A total of 24 aircraft participated in the exercise. The IAF fielded four each Sukhoi SU-30 MKIs, Mirage-2000s, MiG-27s and MiG-21 Bisons, and the IL-78 refueller. Six Tornados, the AWACS and a VC-10 refueller represented the IAF.

Asked why the IAF had not fielded its frontline Typhoon jet, Air Commodore Julian Shilton, said this was because it was just being inducted into squadron service.

"It's at a very early stage. We have one formed squadron that is to be declared operational next year. The next time around, it would be useful to operate it along the SU-30," he added.

On his part, Harper was lavish in his praise for the Su-30.

"It's far superior to the Tornado and those of my pilots who flew it came back with rather silly smiles," he stated amid much mirth.

The exercises were divided into two parts, with the combat jets operating from here and the AWACS and refullers from the Taj Mahal city of Agra. This was because the runway here was not catered to operating the heavy aircraft.

"Both the forces flew with each other in various missions involving up to four aircraft. The missions were planned keeping in view a building block approach," explained Air Marshal Singh.

"Less complex missions were conducted in the first week, with the more difficult ones coming up in the second week, which saw a large force engagement being flown and the number of aircraft increasing to 12," he added.

Operation Indradhanush grew out of an initiative between Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his British counterpart Tony Blair, to improve defence cooperation between the two countries.

As part of this, the two armies and navies conducted exercises last year and early this year respectively. The next IAF-RAF joint exercise is scheduled for 2007 in Britain.

--By Vishnu Makhijani

http://www.teluguportal.net/modules/...?storyid=17514

[adeem]

Good news mate, .

Watch now for banya spin.

IAF fighter pilots win acclaim from Royal Air Force


AK DHAR, GWALIOR, OCT 13 (PTI)
A year after proving their mettle against the US Air Force, Indian fighter pilots have now won acclaim from the Royal Air Force after 10 days of intense joint air combat exercises over central India.

"Your fighter pilots are extremely skilled and quick on the button. They can be rated among the best in the world," visiting Air Vice Marshal Christopher N Harper, chief of RAF's strike operations, told reporters here at the conclusion of the first Indo-British air force exercise held after a gap of 43 years.

Not only the men, but their flying machines too came in for awe from pilots and commanders of the RAF.

"It's a super fighter and a mean machine," was how one RAF pilot labelled the IAF's frontline Sukhoi-30MKI combat jet, which along with Mirage 2000s, MiG-27s and upgraded MiG-21 Bisons participated in the exercise with the RAF's mainstay Tornado F-3 air defence aircraft over the skies here.

Forseeing the contours of the emerging cooperation between armed forces of not only Britain and India, but other NATO allies, Harper said, "We live in an uncertain world where the antagonist is not known. A coordinated operation by like thinking nations is a must."

Following fighter exercise with the US Air Force last year, reports had suggested that IAF pilots had out-performed their American counterparts despite flying ageing jets like the MiG-21.

"We don't know where the next conflict will erupt and we are looking for allies all over the world," Harper said, adding that the focus in cooperation among major countries was on evolving "ways and means" to combat the meance of terrorism.

He said during the joint exercise, the RAF had been keen on learning from the IAF's experience in the Kargil conflict of 1999, particulary the use of air power in combating armed militants holed up in mountain hideouts.

"We also shared our experiences of the ongoing fighting in Afghanistan and in Iraq," Harper said.

Avoiding giving out information on the kill and miss ratio during the air combat manoeuvres, both RAF and IAF officers said the aim of the exercise was to get familar with each other's operating procedures and to indentify areas of commonality.

Though the RAF brought its upgraded Tornados for the joint exercise, Harper said that during the next exercise planned to be held in Britain in September next year, his force might field the new generation Typhoon Eurofighters.

But the machine that had the RAF in awe was the Su-30, with Air Commodore Julian Stinton saying the jet was "absolutely masterful in dog fights".

Four RAF pilots flew the Su-30s while Indian pilots flew the RAF's Tornados.

The high point for the IAF was when the British allowed four fighter controllers to witness operations in the E3D Sentry Air Warning and Control System aircraft during a combat operational flight.

The RAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Glenn Torpy, currently on a visit to India, took an opportunity to fly a Su-30.

The RAF also fielded a VC-10 mid-air refuelling aircraft during the exercise.

After a hectic two-day ground training schedule, air combat exercises began on October 3 with less complex manoeuvres involving four fighters. The second week saw both sides undertaking complex missions involving large aircraft engagements.

This was the ninth bilateral exercises in which the IAF has participated in the past three years.



© Copyright PTI. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of any PTI content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without their prior written consent.

[Munir]

I hardly see Tornado as a dangerous plane when fighting Erieye/JF17 combo. If they did fight Tornado in WVR with AIM9 and still got nice shots then I wish the Indians a good chute cause the big RCS will definately not be help and neither will be the TVC.

[mHussain]

I hardly see Tornado as a dangerous plane when fighting Erieye/JF17 combo. If they did fight Tornado in WVR with AIM9 and still got nice shots then I wish the Indians a good chute cause the big RCS will definately not be help and neither will be the TVC.

However, the higher speed helps in sweep and related manoeuvres.

[Munir]

Indian dreamworld...

Sukhois 'splash' UK Tornados over Gwalior

GWALIOR: IAF pilots flying their 'top-gun' Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets are developing a habit of simply outgunning their rivals. After 'splashing' F-15Cs and F-16s, they have now blown the British Tornados out of the clear blue skies.

Though neither IAF nor Royal Air Force were scrambling to thrash the other in Indra-Dhanush air combat exercise, fighter boys will remain fighter boys, eager to notch up 'kills' even if they are achieved in mock battles.

"The British should have brought their new Euro-fighter Typhoons. The Tornado-F3 air defence fighters were no match for our Sukhoi-30MKIs, which performed exceptionally well in BVR (beyond-visual range) combat," said an IAF pilot.

With a comprehensive package of super-manoeuvrability and firepower, the two-seater Sukhoi-30MKIs were a cut above the rest in the just-concluded 10-day joint exercise, the first such held between India and UK in 43 years.

"Sukhoi-30MKI is our golden goose. We don't want to expose all its eggs to even friendly forces. We did not exploit its spectrum of capabilities. For instance, we did not open all operating modes of its radars," said a senior IAF officer.

But what was shown was enough to dazzle the visitors. "All our pilots who flew in Sukhoi-30MKIs came out with silly smiles on their faces.

But the Typhoon, is an absolutely superb plane and we would like to operate it against Sukhoi-
30MKI, probably next year," said RAF strike command's chief of operations, Air Vice-Marshal Christopher N Harper.

IAF pilots, got some hard lessons from RAF about how to operate in an AWACS (airborne warning and control systems) environment. Indian Mirage-2000s, MiG-27s and MiG-21 'Bisons' found the Tornados, aided by real-time information about approaching targets from E3D Sentry AWACS to be more than a handful.

This, emphasised AVM Harper, was necessary if the need arises in the future for joint operations against a common enemy in these "uncertain times". "Today, we don't know where the next conflict will crop up. Airpower has many roles to play, even in counter-terrorism," he said.

IAF Central Command deputy-chief Air Marshal K D Singh, in turn, said: "The biggest learning experience for us were the AWACS. Our fighter controllers flew in them. We have to learn how to exploit them since we will get three of our own next year."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...142,curpg-2.cms

[mubeeeen]

Su-30MKIs have flown over to the UK to to take on EF-2000s in a bilateral air excercise with the RAF.

Best of India, UK fly in Indradhanush

The Indian Air Force and the Royal Air Force have commenced their second bilateral air exercise Indradhanush-2007 with their personnel getting into the act at the RAF base Waddington, in the UK.

The inaugural day Monday -- primarily for familiarisation of the participating IAF's Su-30 MKI aircrew with the flying environment in UK -- saw the IAF Air Warriors flying alongside RAF F3 Tornadoes of the Leeming-based 25 Squadron -- operating from Waddington for the duration of the exercise, according to reports received in New Delhi.

Also airborne were a Eurofighter Typhoon from the No 17 Squadron from RAF Conningsby, and a Hawk aircraft.

"It will be a mutual learning experience for both," said Wing Commander AK Bharti, talking of the learning values in terms of inter-operability between the two Air Forces after returning from a sortie of a four-aircraft formation comprising the Su-30 MKI, F3 Tornado, Typhoon and a Hawk.

The 'airborne warning and control' system experience -- a veritable electronic 'eye-in-the-sky' platform -- was also observed by a few IAF personnel onboard an E3-D Sentry AWAC aircraft belonging to RAF's No 8 Fighter Squadron, based in Waddington.

The E3-D Sentry and the F3 Tornadoes had also participated in Indradhanush-2006, held at Gwalior.

The exercise between two simulated air elements, the 'Red Air' (aggressors) and the 'Blue Air' (defenders) forces will have the training element for the latter. Missions comprising multiple aircraft will form some of the intrinsic training missions, some of them highly advanced and complex.

Mediating between the two will be the 'White' force, who remain neutral and whose decisions will be the last word, to mitigate differences, if any.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/jul/04iaf1.htm