PAF dealings with zimbabwe

[pshamim]

H Khan
Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,643

Pakistani Air Chief Pledges Support To Air Force of Zimbabwe

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The Herald (Harare)

July 20, 2005
Posted to the web July 20, 2005

Harare

PAKISTAN Airforce (PAF) Commander, Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, who is in the country on a five-day exchange visit, has pledged continued support for the Air Force of Zimbabwe (AFZ) to enhance the bilateral relations between the two countries.

Addressing delegates on Monday evening at a dinner hosted for him by AFZ Commander Air Marshal Perence Shiri, Air Chief Marshal Saadat said the friendship between the two countries should be pursued to encompass wider areas of co-operation.

He said PAF would continue to provide training facilities and strengthen ties with the AFZ.

The AFZ, he said, had over the years proved its precision and expertise in flying in both military and humanitarian assistance operations both at home and abroad.

"I feel elated about the friendship that our two countries enjoy and we will continue to support Zimbabwe," he said.

Since independence Pakistan has helped to strengthen the AFZ in terms of training and provision of equipment.

The AFZ was soon after independence under the command of a Pakistan national, Air Marshal Daud Pota, for about three years.

The PAF commander, who toured A2 farms in Bindura in Mashonaland Central province, yesterday described his visit as an eye opener as he now understands the true situation prevailing in Zimbabwe.

At the farms, the Provincial Governor, Cde Ephraim Masawi, and AFZ Commander Air Marshal Perence Shiri accompanied him.

"We had a unique experience and the privilege to see the farms that we were shown by our hosts. The Governor and Air Marshal Shiri explained to us the background of the land reform programme and we now understand the rational and logic of the programme," said Chief Air Marshal Saadat.

The delegation visited Mr Remigious Matangira, Mr Reward Marufu and Mr Menard Muzariri's farms.

Air Marshal Shiri hailed the assistance rendered to Zimbabwe by PAF and said the country would continue receiving that assistance.

"The PAF played a pivotal role in the transformation of the Air Force of Zimbabwe from an institution serving the interests of the colonialists to an institution serving the interests of people," said Air Marshal Shiri.

"The whites were so entrenched in the Air Force that they tenaciously resisted every move to introduce blacks in the mainstream structure of the AFZ."

This resistance, he said, resulted in the sabotage of the AFZ aircraft at Thornhill Airbase in 1982.

He said having seen the slow pace of the integration of the blacks into AFZ, Government sought help from friendly nations such as Pakistan.

"PAF sent its officers and men to train AFZ pilots and technicians. Due to their efforts, pilots and technicians trained in the eastern countries in the later part of our liberation struggle and were speedily integrated into the AFZ."

Several AFZ officers have over the past years attended various courses in Pakistan and only last week five technicians left the country for training stints and courses with PAF.

Six more officers are scheduled to leave for Pakistan to take the same courses by the end of this year, said Air Marshal Shiri.


Air Chief Marshal Saadat, who is being accompanied by five other senior PAF officers, is in the country to strengthen ties with the AFZ.

The visit among other issues is aimed at strengthening the existing relationship between the two air forces and also further areas of co-operation.
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#80 07-22-2005, 02:53 AM
M.Ghaznavi
Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 330

Re: Pakistani Air Chief Pledges Support To Air Force of Zimbabwe

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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Khan




The Herald (Harare)

July 20, 2005
Posted to the web July 20, 2005

Harare

PAKISTAN Airforce (PAF) Commander, Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, who is in the country on a five-day exchange visit, has pledged continued support for the Air Force of Zimbabwe (AFZ) to enhance the bilateral relations between the two countries.

Addressing delegates on Monday evening at a dinner hosted for him by AFZ Commander Air Marshal Perence Shiri, Air Chief Marshal Saadat said the friendship between the two countries should be pursued to encompass wider areas of co-operation.

He said PAF would continue to provide training facilities and strengthen ties with the AFZ.

The AFZ, he said, had over the years proved its precision and expertise in flying in both military and humanitarian assistance operations both at home and abroad.

"I feel elated about the friendship that our two countries enjoy and we will continue to support Zimbabwe," he said.

Since independence Pakistan has helped to strengthen the AFZ in terms of training and provision of equipment.

The AFZ was soon after independence under the command of a Pakistan national, Air Marshal Daud Pota, for about three years.

The PAF commander, who toured A2 farms in Bindura in Mashonaland Central province, yesterday described his visit as an eye opener as he now understands the true situation prevailing in Zimbabwe.

At the farms, the Provincial Governor, Cde Ephraim Masawi, and AFZ Commander Air Marshal Perence Shiri accompanied him.

"We had a unique experience and the privilege to see the farms that we were shown by our hosts. The Governor and Air Marshal Shiri explained to us the background of the land reform programme and we now understand the rational and logic of the programme," said Chief Air Marshal Saadat.

The delegation visited Mr Remigious Matangira, Mr Reward Marufu and Mr Menard Muzariri's farms.

Air Marshal Shiri hailed the assistance rendered to Zimbabwe by PAF and said the country would continue receiving that assistance.

"The PAF played a pivotal role in the transformation of the Air Force of Zimbabwe from an institution serving the interests of the colonialists to an institution serving the interests of people," said Air Marshal Shiri.

"The whites were so entrenched in the Air Force that they tenaciously resisted every move to introduce blacks in the mainstream structure of the AFZ."

This resistance, he said, resulted in the sabotage of the AFZ aircraft at Thornhill Airbase in 1982.

He said having seen the slow pace of the integration of the blacks into AFZ, Government sought help from friendly nations such as Pakistan.

"PAF sent its officers and men to train AFZ pilots and technicians. Due to their efforts, pilots and technicians trained in the eastern countries in the later part of our liberation struggle and were speedily integrated into the AFZ."

Several AFZ officers have over the past years attended various courses in Pakistan and only last week five technicians left the country for training stints and courses with PAF.

Six more officers are scheduled to leave for Pakistan to take the same courses by the end of this year, said Air Marshal Shiri.


Air Chief Marshal Saadat, who is being accompanied by five other senior PAF officers, is in the country to strengthen ties with the AFZ.

The visit among other issues is aimed at strengthening the existing relationship between the two air forces and also further areas of co-operation.





I have a feeling that when AVM Shahid Latif said that PAF already has export orders for the JF-17, he was referring to Zimbabwe.

I also remember reading a newspiece about Zimbabwe being interested in JF-17.
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#81 07-22-2005, 03:22 AM
Abbas
Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 389

Re: Pakistani Air Chief Pledges Support To Air Force of Zimbabwe

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It's not a good idea for Pakistan to be linked to Zimbabwe in any way, least of all in a military context. Zimbabwe is in the diplomatic dog-house in international public opinion, and any links with this country will only tarnish Pakistan's image. There are amny other African countries that Pakistan can develop relations with, so there is no need to get desperate and associate with the likes of Zimbabwe.

NavBaby.
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It's not a good idea for Pakistan to be linked to Zimbabwe in any way, least of all in a military context. NavBaby.

Very true. I fully agree. This will be a bad move in the current environment.

[Abbas]

Thank you for seeing the point Mr. Shamim. For those who wonder why Pakistan has a poor public image, please refer to Mnier's comments - that should clue you in.

NavBaby.

[Munir]

It has a poor image thanks to people that are from Pakistan and love to degrade it even more. Besides that the passive reaction to Indian propaganda or allowing extremist to show only their side is part of the negative marketing.

It is extremely easy to join those that have the same idea. It is difficult to think different and show transparancy.

[H Khan]

Well, I think selling arms to any country which is sovereign and is internationally recognized is no problem. AFZ stood on its feet with the help of Pakistan, flies a lot equipment which Pakistan services and paid Pakistan in cash, I see no problem. Lets try being more independent in our thought process and cater to our needs and not that of these white supremest governments.

[A Khan]

It has a poor image thanks to people that are from Pakistan and love to degrade it even more. Besides that the passive reaction to Indian propaganda or allowing extremist to show only their side is part of the negative marketing.

It is extremely easy to join those that have the same idea. It is difficult to think different and show transparancy.

I agree..

Besides Zimbabwe is receiving help from South Africa and other African countries, and since AU hasn't done anything to ban Zimbabwe then i dont see why we should keep away from doing business with them. They dont pose any threat to their neighbours. With regards to their internal problems, well if we were to have relations with countries based on their internal situation, then there are many countries in the world whom we can cut diplomatic ties with, such as: Zimbabwe, sudan, cuba, Myanmar, Iran, Central Asians Republics, half of Africa. I dont think Pakistan has that luxury.

[Abbas]

It has a poor image thanks to people that are from Pakistan and love to degrade it even more. Besides that the passive reaction to Indian propaganda or allowing extremist to show only their side is part of the negative marketing.

It is extremely easy to join those that have the same idea. It is difficult to think different and show transparancy.

Wrong! A few Ahmed Rashids and Hussain Haqqanis cannot shape the image of Pakistan, and for every Rashid and Haqqani there are people like myself (and I am sure some others on this forum) who stand up for Pakistan. Bharti propaganda is more effective because it links Pakistan to what the world sees as undesireable. E.g. Pakistan's association with the Taliban. The UN is to set to release a damning report on Zimbabwe (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4708291.stm), can you imagine what a field day Bharat and its supporters will have pointing out Pakistan's links with Zimbabwe once this report is released?

If you think international public opinion is irrelevant, then just remeber obtaining F-16s, Gripens, Rafales, etc. will not happen if this opinion turns more anti-Pakistani than it already is. You can also forget about trade consessions and foreign investment, and expect greater international support for Bharati belligerence against Pakistan, and less acceptance of Pakistan's point of view on issues that are critical to its security and progress.

Why should Pakistan run this risk by associating with Zimbabwe, when it can develop relations with Ghana, for example? The only reason Zimbabwe considers Pakistan for its militry needs is because no one else will even look their way.

Being different for the sake of being different is pointless, and often self-destructive; difficulty and transparency have nothing to do with it. Don't have a knee jerk anti-western attitude, think the situation through.

Well, I think selling arms to any country which is sovereign and is internationally recognized is no problem. AFZ stood on its feet with the help of Pakistan, flies a lot equipment which Pakistan services and paid Pakistan in cash, I see no problem. Lets try being more independent in our thought process and cater to our needs and not that of these white supremest governments.

The Mugabe regime has little international recognition anymore, and whatever is left is evaporating fast. Why do you want Pakistan to board a sinking ship? Pakistan helped AFZ when Zimbabwe was newly independent. The Zimbabwe of today bears no resemblance to the Zimbabwe at the time of its independence. From being one of the most prosperous countries in Africa, it has gone to one of the most poorest. Even Kenya and Tanzania are in bettter shape than Zimbabwe.

Being independent does not mean ignoring the country's larger interests. What is our need? If it is to earn foreign exchange by selling defense equipment, then it does not matter where the money comes from. Dollars paid by Zimbabwe will be no different than dollars paid by anyone else. Why should Pakistan jeapordize its public standing and access to higher technologies for the sake of Zimbabwean market, when it can get the what it needs from other customers?

NavBaby.

[H Khan]

Abbas,

I would not agree with you on this one. You know better when these white western countries don't like any country they start a forum and from their they go to EU, UN, and embargo. This is their old strategy and these days it doesn't carry much credence.

Bharat hates to the core that when Rhodesia became Zimbabwe because they threw most of the Indian Hindus out, shipped them either to Bharat or England, because of their support to Ian Smith and befriended Pakistan, China, and few other countries. Air Zimbabwe had PIA's technical support and their armed from Pak military and China. When the time was good the Brit's pushed their Hawks aircrafts to replace Hunters. AFZ bought these aircrafts but as usual the Brit's delayed the delivery and later even told the AFZ to receive RAF used Hawks in place of newer one. Scams from the time get go. The Brit's hate them along with those Kangaroos and Kiwis because a lot white supremest Rhodesian were original from these countries and when they were overthrown they ran back to their occupied lands.

Not that I agree with Mugabe policies but there is more to it that what BBC is reporting. You mean to say that BBC will be saying any negative about English foreign policies

I support Pakistan consistent approach of friendship for the last 25 years with Zimbabwe. Bharat can a have a field day whenever they want but so far they these Bharati RSS have not found the field or that day.

Is this a Zimbabwe thread?

[pshamim]

Has anyone been to Zimbabwe or Rhodesia as it was formerly called. Rhodesia was once ruled by the White bigots and now by the Black bigots. Does any one know how the Hindu and Muslim from the sub-continent live. Even if you are a Pakistani, how you think the Mugabe's thugs treat you.

I think that we must help Zimbabwe but not Mugabe. As I said in my earlier post that we should not sell under the current circumastances-does not mean we can not do that in the future.

[Munir]

As if western nation care about image of Pakistan... They are just doing anything to prevent any non western nation to become economical or military power. Look at how pathetic western nation are stopping China. And how easy negative information is distributed about China. Pakistan will never get positive image and it will only be accepted if they are handy to kill opponents (OBL). Those posters that are so busy with the image are only restricting Pakistan. I showed some western nations and even India that push several rules aside. I don't here US Pakistani thinking about that but on the other sidfe they care about starting up military industry. As is military weapons are used to make flowers grow...

[A Khan]

Has anyone been to Zimbabwe or Rhodesia as it was formerly called. Rhodesia was once ruled by the White bigots and now by the Black bigots. Does any one know how the Hindu and Muslim from the sub-continent live. Even if you are a Pakistani, how you think the Mugabe's thugs treat you.

I think that we must help Zimbabwe but not Mugabe. As I said in my earlier post that we should not sell under the current circumastances-does not mean we can not do that in the future.

Yes We should help Zimbabwe, and i dont think the Air force will be something that Mugabe will use on his own people, therefore it should be safe to assist them in that field. Secondly, Mugabe is 80+ so most likely he wont be in power for long.

[Amir H]

Yes We should help Zimbabwe, and i dont think the Air force will be something that Mugabe will use on his own people, therefore it should be safe to assist them in that field. Secondly, Mugabe is 80+ so most likely he wont be in power for long.

And that is exactly the point! When Mugabe kicks the bucket and some form of opposition take control of the country, do you think they will be happy to deal with Pakistan. Who in their eyes legitimised Mugabe's thuggery and supplied him arms that might have been used against them? At best this is short termism.

Just because a state is willing to buy arms from us, does not mean we can turn a blind eye as to where there being used.

Anyway this thread has strayed seriously off topic, sorry for contributing to that!

[mastankhan]

Hello gentlemen,

Zimbabwe, used to be a beautiful nation with enough wealth, resources, agriculture and beef stock that it would have fed itself and quite a few of the neighbouring countries----but alas for the the 'black man' the nation is in ruins now. It is a rascist regime ruled by a tyrant----the story of black africa---repeated over and over from one corner to the other.

[Munir]

Mastakhan.... "whosoever owns the truth owns the game" is totally wrong... It is "who owns propaganda wins the world opinion..." off topic but you prefer white man ruling over black man? Democracy means that people there should rule. Not those old rulers from the west that axploited the nation that way that there is nothing left... What did the westeners bring my bro? MAybe you should open history books and read about how well the westeners behaved. And stop calling others so bad without looking at both sides. Looking to only US channels will not make your opinion more valuable. You do know why Latin America gets own CNN, don't you? Cause people are fed up with the one sided news you call reality... It must be hard to understand that in a society where America is above everything...

This article from Jang shows how the reality is when one looks at two sides...

Mind your own command, Musharraf tells India

‘Islamabad’s control regime predates Delhi’s’

By Shakil Shaikh

RAWALPINDI: President Pervez Musharraf on Saturday snubbed India for speculating about the effectiveness and reliability of Pakistan’s command and control structure and said the country’s nuclear deterrence was fully operational and continued to consolidate and strengthen with time.

President Musharraf was speaking at a review meeting of the National Command Authority (NCA) at the Strategic Plans Division here. Though the meeting had already been planned, the latest Pakistan-bashing by Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh came under discussion in the meeting, which termed it an anti-peace move aimed at domestic consumption.

Pakistan, Musharraf said, was fully alive to developments taking place in the region and would take all necessary safeguards to ensure that its deterrence capability was maintained.

The Indian premier made speculative remarks about Pakistan, though numerous cases have been reported in which 18/19 kilograms of nuclear fuel was stolen in India and remained untraced.

The latest outburst by Singh against Pakistan seems to be an effort to cover up these cases, as now the world focus is on the Indian command-and-control regime.

"No-one has a right to speculate about the effectiveness and reliability of Pakistan’s command and control structure, which predates those in its neighbourhood and are far more efficient, scientific and transparent," Musharraf said, adding that it was not Pakistan’s policy to engage in an arms race but it would not close its eyes to induction of advanced weaponry in its neighbourhood.

Musharraf said Pakistan stood for peace and harmony, which was essential for promotion of the government’s policy of economic growth and development, but all necessary defensive measures would be taken. It is internationally accepted that Pakistan’s command and control structure is much better and robust than that of India’s.

The NCA meeting took note of the recent Indo-US nuclear and defence framework and decided to take appropriate measures.

Some well-placed sources told The News that India would never miss any opportunity of Pakistan-bashing and the weak leadership of Indian PM Singh was reflected when he expressed his helpless on his return from his trip abroad. Many express their surprise that the leadership of the biggest democracy in the world is so helpless, it would not like to take difficult decisions.

"If Singh cannot take difficult decisions, who else can do so," a senior official asked, adding that the Indian leadership should break away from the past but all its needs courage.

Musharraf has already been saying that for resolving age-old problems it needs leaders with vision, courage and flexibility. He also spearheaded the peace process in South Asia and looks determined to achieve the objectives.

Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz informed the NCA meeting that Pakistan’s rapid economic growth in the coming years would generate large energy requirements, and his government had identified nuclear energy as one of the attractive and essential alternative sources.

In view of energy needs, he said, Pakistan would engage with the international community to enhance its peaceful civilian nuclear programme.

Foreign Minister Khurshid Mehmood Kasuri, Defence Minister Rao Sikandar Iqbal, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee General Ehsan ul Haq, services chiefs, secretary defence, senior scientists and military officials attended the NCA meeting.

[zia ul haq]

Asalaamo-a-laikum.

The PAF and all Pakistani entities that are involved in Zimbabwe should be building up relations that would survive the inevitable death of Mugabe. With that in mind they should stay but tread carefully. I admit in PR terms it doesn't look good but it is not like we are are sanction busting. If that was the case it would be a different matter. Unethical is not illegal.

I find it hard to believe that some people here seem to be defending Mugabe on the basis that what white people did was bad too. Excuse me but I don't think anybody here has ever been to Zimbabwe and from talking to black, Asian and white Zimbabweans the only thing you learn is that Mugabe is creating a personal fiefdom for himself and his cronies which began after he was nearly voted out of power. After that he cast around for ways to keep himself in power so began ethnically cleasning the White farmers off their land which they were in the process of giving to the Black farmers anyway. The farms were given to Mugabe's cronies (they threw off the Black farmers as well), who don't farm them but enjoy being owners of vast swathes of land, hence the food shortages in a country that was the bread basket of Southern Africa. After he had finished with the farmers the next fear was that he would turn tribe on tribe but what he has done is more clever, he's carried on cracking down on those that supported the opposition and now is trying to keep people from flooding into the cities from the countryside so they cannot add to the instability in the cities. He is mindful after al that there could be a mass uprising to get rid of him so wants to control the numbers of people in the areas that could do that. Hence the demolistion of the shanty towns and destruction of their means of livelihood such as the 'unregistered markets'.

To say this is all some kind of media conspiracy reflects badly on the level of intelligence that you would expect to find here too. What is happening in Zimbabwe is an accepted fact by all in Africa but not condemned for a variety of reasons. South Africa could do without Zimbabwe imploding so prefers to wait for Mugabe to die rather put any pressure on him. They don't want the steady trickle of refugees coming over the border to turn into a flood caused by a civil war. Other Africans are just as corrupt and despotic as Mugabe so wouldn't care less anyway.

Anyway, that was a slight 'aside' but despite this the PAF should stay but stay out of harms way. They are beaking no laws. After Mugabe is gone they should be in a position to help rebuild what he has destroyed. One contributing factor to this is taht the Chinese are investing heavily in Africa (and Zimbabwe as well I am led to believe), so there is no harm on riding on 'Chinese coat tails' so to speak.

[Gulstan]

Yet Israel gets everything funded from the US... And look how fast Blair was in India to sell Hawks... Or India that sells to Nepal... One sided posts about not good for Pakistan. Somehow people living in the US seem to think one sided positive about what is good or bad for others.

That may be so, but we have more to lose than gain from dealing with Zimbabwe. They have hardly little fianance to buy every day commodoties like fuel flour etc, where will they get the dosh to buy miliatry hardware. Is it worth the risk to alientae "civilised world" for a third world tinpot regime

[Munir]

Compared to what the west did to the world and in particular Africa and Asia there is no chance that Pakistan could make it worser. Africa is done. The natural habitat is destroyed and even Shell, a firm that is busy with showing their soft nature side, did nothing else that exploiting to the maximum and dumping waste when no longer handy. Look at the major drug firms that dump outtdated drugs in the African market. Or look at even at the European community that destroyed local economies in africa cause they protected European farmers. One can blaim the local corruption or "elected" governments but the environmentis spoiled by external factors. Pakistan can deliver the parts and add control how the use them. They can improve local industries. They can improve roads etc... I think it is a must to do and not anything else...

[iqbal's]

That may be so, but we have more to lose than gain from dealing with Zimbabwe. They have hardly little fianance to buy every day commodoties like fuel flour etc, where will they get the dosh to buy miliatry hardware. Is it worth the risk to alientae "civilised world" for a third world tinpot regime

The PAF should look to the future and keep its foot in Zimbabwe.There is no harm in giving them the material if they can pay for it ortherwise keep the discussion going untill the regime cahanges and them make quick offers before others come back.It is too good an oppertunity to miss.But do we have the staying power? We missed so many chances in the past, we really nead to think this trough.As the white man/ lack man arguement it the most infantile argument going.The fact of the matter is that this is used to justify the loot by the newer elites and nothing else.How has the average Zimbabwean benifited from getting "liberated"? Still looking to the white man to help him out, thats what.
Iqbal

[Abbas]

Pakistan needs to get smart and learn from its past mistakes. Pakistan's association with the Taliban did nothing for Pakistan, and yet it got tarnished by their ignorant interpretation and application of Islam. The result of such blemish is easy to see: just pick up any major international periodical and read the Pakistan bashing that goes on. I have already outlined the impact of such negative reporting on Pakistani interests. The bottom line is this: Will Pakistan learn from its past mistakes and chart a course that brings it progress and prosperity, or will it cling to pointless bravdo that will only ensure an impotent future?

NavBaby.

[Munir]

The Taleban was created by the US to stop Russian invasion. After that it was dumped and thanks to OBL it was destroyed. Pakistan did not sell sophisticated weapons to them. Zimbabwe will by a small market and it can be transformed into more stable nation. Either they will buy Hawks (oops they did and were boycotted) or will buy something like Su25. I think selling them medium tech planes and trying to make them stable is much better then leaving them to rot. The weapons are less dangerous compared to many illegal small weapon deliveries by westeners that only fuel civil wars. It is not a sign that Pakistan supports any crazy government but just a way to make a path to improvement. Somehow US Americans seem to have different opinion. They are allowed to have but they need to remember that in their young and democratic nation the blacks had no civil rights only a few decades ago. They need to know that original native Indians were eradicated just like their food chain. So trying to paint others as underdeveloped is not the way to make this world better. Kyoto was pushed away cause it might hurt US economy. Well. The US economy seems to be more important then the world so this subject about Mugabe is pretty simplistic if we look at the big picture.

[ZafarRKhan]

The Taleban was created by the US to stop Russian invasion. After that it was dumped and thanks to OBL it was destroyed. Pakistan did not sell sophisticated weapons to them. Zimbabwe will by a small market and it can be transformed into more stable nation. Either they will buy Hawks (oops they did and were boycotted) or will buy something like Su25. I think selling them medium tech planes and trying to make them stable is much better then leaving them to rot. The weapons are less dangerous compared to many illegal small weapon deliveries by westeners that only fuel civil wars. It is not a sign that Pakistan supports any crazy government but just a way to make a path to improvement. Somehow US Americans seem to have different opinion. They are allowed to have but they need to remember that in their young and democratic nation the blacks had no civil rights only a few decades ago. They need to know that original native Indians were eradicated just like their food chain. So trying to paint others as underdeveloped is not the way to make this world better. Kyoto was pushed away cause it might hurt US economy. Well. The US economy seems to be more important then the world so this subject about Mugabe is pretty simplistic if we look at the big picture.

I am sorry but the Taleban had nothing to do with repelling the soviets. It was created after the withdrawl of the soviets from afghanistan.

The Taleban was created by the ISI and not by the CIA! We had lost control of Hekmatyar and we needed a replacement and with the blessing of the then Bhutto government and Mr Naseerullah Baber, the ISI launched its suicidal creation.

The sooner we accept the self inflicting blunders that our agencies have made, the sooner we can mend them and the less likely we are to repeat them.

[mastankhan]

Mnier,

You are a good man brother--------history of africa is full of incompetence of the black african. The whites left in zimbabwe were as much africans as were any others. They had as much right to stay and be a part of the nation-----at least they were producing enough meat and grain to feed the nation---------. Let us not get involved in the rhetoric of being opinionated by the american news media alone.

[pshamim]

I am sorry but the Taleban had nothing to do with repelling the soviets. It was created after the withdrawl of the soviets from afghanistan..

Zafar Saheb, Both yours and Mnier's statements are partially correct. Taliban are the product of the Madrassah system that US created and funded for the children of Afghan refugees. Since their childhood, the kids were indoctrinated through books provided by none other than University of Nebraska at Lincoln. US set up the "Afghan Center" at the university.

These books taught these refugee children that Russians were Godless people and Satans. Even the first book that taught numbers contained material that created hate against the Soviets e.g. 1 Soviet soldier, 2 guns, 3 missiles, and so on and so forth.

During the Afghan war, I had been heavily involved in many things related to this particular war. I have seen materials materials to these children who later became Talibans. Yes the ISI was supporting and helping the American effort.

Mnier is correct in pointing out that OBL was introduced to Afghanistan by Americans to organize an Arab force to fight the Soviets.

But once the Soviets left Afghanistan, Bush Senior withdrew without helping the Afghans who helped them in becoming the sole super power. US has created lot of hatred because of its actions after the end of war. These Talibans were then supported by Pakistan to create the strategic depth for itself and prevent the Indians from having a negative influence against it.

Regards.

MODS. we need to open a separate thread for this discussion. We have veered off from actual topic.

[Munir]

Mnier,

You are a good man brother--------history of africa is full of incompetence of the black african. The whites left in zimbabwe were as much africans as were any others. They had as much right to stay and be a part of the nation-----at least they were producing enough meat and grain to feed the nation---------. Let us not get involved in the rhetoric of being opinionated by the american news media alone.

It is not only the media but the hidden intentions of parties. Let us focus now on India-Pakistan-Iran pipeline. India needs energy. Pakistan needs energy. Iran needs export. The US wants to corner Iran. Making it a paria. Surely they oppose any export relationship of that nation. Now they suddenly offered Indians (Singhs visit to US) nuclear energy. They oppesed that for decades by calling it dual use technology but now suddenly they talk abbout more then a few high tec nuclear reactors. Why? Cause India is desperate to get energy cause it needs to fuel the growing Indian economy. The US wants that to block China. They can do that by helping India. By offering India nuclear power they make India stronger and at the same time they stop Iran making friends. They don't care about fees that Pakistan will miss... How can the process followed? The political outcome was that both Mr Singh and his oil minister started talking about the pipe line as unlimited risks and no one intrested to pay such project. They were the same that were running to get it done even with US pressure... Now with some logic one can see through the reality of politics.

[Abbas Naqvi]

For myself it is perfectly legal to sell arms to zimbabwe, there are no permanent friends or enemies, just interests. United states can sell weaponary to india defying all proctective mecahnism installed to prevent arms race in the region, russia can sell weapons to syria, iran and militants in iraq, then we can do it in a region which is quite peaceful and stable and with whom which should have long term committments. These regions are unexplored markets and there is no harm in providing protection to markets in exchange for relatively open access. besides relatively large muslim communities live in the nearby regions and as always these areas are potentials sources of minerals, oil and gas and metals.

[MohammedA]

Does anybody in the world from the major powers have an "ethical" arms policy??
Even EU wants to sell arms to China now! So long as Pakistan is careful to factor in eventual demise of Mugabe regime, I don't see how any country can be against it. The UK won't like it, but it doesn't stop selling arms to both India & Pakistan.