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Gandhi died by the hands of an assassin; Jinnah died by his devotion to Pakistan. Lord Pethick Lawrence
Assalam oalaukum,
some old technical stuff about JF-17
RUSSIA PROMOTES KOPYO-F FOR FC1
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Phazotron Kopyo F with FC1 background. Kanwa via Phazotron
Phazotron Kapyo F A.Pinkov Photo
from www.kanwa.com
RUSSIA PROMOTES KOPYO-F FOR FC1
<Kanwa News Sept 16, 2003> Russian Phazotron Radar Design Bureau has been trying every effort to promote to China KOPYO-F upgraded phased array radar which is mainly used on FC1 currently under production. <Kanwa Digest news>
FC1 IS TO USE FBW SYSTEM
<Kanwa News July 30, 2001> A source from Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Group Co. LTD (CAIG) revealed to Kanwa reporter that there has been a breakthrough in FC1 research this year. Up till now, one full size mock-up has been manufactured. A first prototype is in the manufacturing process, which will be completed in early spring of 2003 according to the project schedule.
Consequence to this, a first test fly will commence after Chinese New Year 2003. The first prototype will be equipped with Israel IAI Elta Type 2032 radar for the purpose of airborne fire control system test only. Up till now, the CAIG has two sets of Type 2032 radar system. The prototype of FC1 will use RD93 turbofan engine.
So far CAIG has four RD93, which are enough for trial fly purpose. With RD 93, FC1 has a weapon load capacity of 3.8 tons. FC1 benefits from design consultation given by Mikoyan Design Bureau. Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Group has paid the Mikoyan design bureau the consultation fee up to 500,000 US dollars. The resource says that China's Air Force plans to have a replacement with 100 FC1, whose name for the export type is still Super 7. The final type of radar and fire control system has not yet been decided on. Massive production type FC1 apparently will not be equipped with Type 2032 radar. China has imported two sets of KOPYO radar system, which is possibly related to the development of FC1 used by its Air Force.
The open mode mission computer enables FC1 to adopt weapon systems from different countries, including China-made PL11 semi-active radar guided AAM and PL12 active radar guided AAM. Also produced in Chengdu is China-made new generation laser guided glider bomb. In order to improve FC1's fly-control performance, Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Group has developed a new generation dual redundant longitudinal FBW system. For the lateral control system, the traditional mechanic control is still in use.
The FC1 project has received an investment of 150 million US dollars, including 75 million dollars from Pakistan. Apparently, China's Air Force hopes to arrange Su27SK/Su30MKK, J10A and FC1 in high, medium and low combination so as to meet different needs of the air combat in the 21st century. <Kanwa Paris>
Is there any news about how far along the PAF is with picking an avionics suite for the FC-1, or any news about engine choices? After the deluge of news of the last 2 or 3 months, there's been no new information at all in the last few weeksNot even any new pictures have been released.
Omar check out CAC/PAC FC-1/JF-17 on PAF site - it has been updated with some new info, which isn't much but still a good start.
There is a special Providence in the fall of a sparrow, if it be now, "tis not to come, if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be now, yet it will come, the readiness is all. [Hamlet]
SD-10 could re-arm Pakistan's fighter force
JANE'S MISSILES AND ROCKETS - NOVEMBER 01, 2003
Pakistan could equip its fighter force with China's SD-10 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), says Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief of Staff Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Kaleem Saadat. In an interview with our sister title Jane's Defence Weekly, ACM Saadat says that the acquisition of BVRAAMs is a top near-term priority for the PAF.
Pakistan is interested in buying such a missile from US or European suppliers, but "that option is not yet open", he says. "I guess ultimately it will have to be Chinese." Pakistan has been working with China on developing the SD-l0 BVRAAM missile, which ACM Saadat says could be ready for operational use "in less than a year". Whichever missile Pakistan chooses, "money is [now] not a problem" as it had been previously.
The new BVRAAM would initially be integrated into the JF-17 Thunder lightweight fighter (previously known as the FC-l/Super-7). Pakistan plans to build at least 150 of these aircraft, which will be co-produced with China at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra. ACM Saadat says the plan is to ultimately retrofit the missile into all PAF fighter aircraft.
In 1991 the Aerospace Division of Pakistan's National Development Complex (NDC) revealed that it was conducting 'preliminary studies' for a new medium-range air-to-air missile. No full-scale hardware had been built at that time, but NDC engineers were said to be investigating several different approaches to the future missile's design.
The existence of the SD-10 programme was acknowledged by Chinese officials for the first time in early 2002. The missile's relationship with a reported Chinese national BVRAAM programme is unclear. SD-10 could be the export designation for a Chinese missile to be known as PL-12, but sources within the China National Aerotechnology Import-Export Corporation (CATIC) say the PL-12 and the earlier semi-active radar homing PL-11 have all been abandoned in favour of the SD-10.
SD-10 is a rocket-powered missile of conventional layout, with cruciform wings and tail surfaces. Early models and artist's impressions showed a weapon similar in general configuration to the US AIM-120 AMRAAM, but a recent full-sized model has tail-mounted control surfaces of novel form whose inner leading edge is swept sharply forward. Their planform may have been influenced by that of the cruciform trapezoidal 'butterfly' moving control surfaces on the Vympel R-27 (AA-10 'Alamo') family of air-to-air missiles. According to CATIC sources the missile has a range of 80km.
At the 1996 Air Show China in Zhuhai, the China Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute/No 607 Research Institute displayed a newly developed active-radar seeker.
Known as the AMR-1, this was thought to be for a new air-to-air missile derived from the LY-60 surface-to-air missile.
Russia is the source for the missile's inertial navigation system and datalink, and although CATIC is known to be developing X-band and Ku-band active-radar seekers, recent reports suggest that China has been co-operating closely with Russia's Moscow-based AGAT Research Institute, which may be providing the SD-10's active seeker. The Chinese weapon could use AGAT's 9B-1348 active-radar seeker developed for the Vympel R-77 (AA-12 'Adder'), or technology from the Institute's 9B-1103M seeker family.
The PAF has also named acquisition of new fighters with "F-16 and above capability" as another primary need, says ACM Saadat. The service is currently exploring a number of options, including F-16s repeatedly requested from Washington and the possibility of receiving used F-16s from Belgium or the Netherlands, both of which are planning to retire some of their fleet.
"What we were suggesting is that if the US government has objections to only [supplying] the new [F- l6s], acquiring used ones is one alternative option," ACM Sadaat says. He adds that "they [Washington] haven't said 'yes', they haven't said 'no'".
If more F-16s are not available, the Mirage 2000-9 and Gripen are seen as alternatives, and ACM Saadat notes that "the service is actively talking" to the manufacturers of both aircraft. The PAF prefers the F-l6 option because Pakistan already possesses the necessary logistical and training infrastructure to support the aircraft.
The PAF intends to take up the US offer to upgrade the country's existing F-l6s, the ACM says, with capabilities that would allow the service to add a BVRAAM as a top priority.
Improvements beeing considered would include digitised electronics, structural support changes and enhanced sensors such as improved radars.
If Islamabad fails to acquire additional sophisticated fighters, it would try to upgrade its ground-based air-defence systems, the ACM says. Pakistan has requested the Hawk surface-to-air missile system from the US, and is also exploring similar Ukrainian, Spanish, Italian and Chinese systems.
But, ACM Sadaat added, due to the systems' high costs any such purchases are likely to be deferred if the funds are spent on new hi-tech fighters.
India... Lay-off!
<Kanwa News Hasan Mahmood Sept 20th 2003> Kanwa's correspondent in Islamabad recently obtained Pakistan's official statement concerning the FC1 development project. This official statement revealed that the overall cost of the development project was about US$450 million.
The statement clearly stipulated that the technological standards of FC1 had to attain the following indexes: it can be fitted with anti-ship and anti-radiation missiles, short-range and beyond visual range AAM, LGB, runway penetration bombs and cluster bombs. In addition, it should also be capable of mixing conventional and FBW control systems. The official statement listed the production process of FC1 in details. The process includes the following steps: The draft of the memorandum on joint production of FC1 is going to be completed in September 2003. It provides that Pakistan will have the right to produce 50% of FC1 and reserves the right to produce the aircraft independently.
The memorandum will be formally signed by two sides in December 2003. Pakistan will start technological reform and upgrade in the enterprises that produce FC1 in the year 2004. (Kanwa Digets news, for full story, see Kanwa Issue 920)
Guys, we where having a discussion on the pakistanidefence forum, regarding the radar in the JF-17, as of yet none ahs been chosen yeah?
now, it was implied that ti'd be impossible to fit a radar with a 200-250km search range in the JF-17......what do you guys think?
I mean compare it to planes of similar size.....like the J-10 and the Eurofighter and the Rafale....all are roughly the same sort of size.....all ahve radars larger than 160Km.....the captor radar in the eurofighter is quite large.....i'm not sure of the exacty figure....
So what do you think?
Also Do you think it's possible for Pakistan to maybe modifiy a radar so that it can see to it;s sides as well maybe kinda behind it, unlike the forwards arc that normal radars have.
Maybe one big one in.....then to smaller ones, facing left and right, intergrate the data from these and present it to the pilot.....is that maybe something to research?
Faith, unity, disiplineFree Kashmir!!
FC1 PRODUCTION PLAN REVEALED
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FC1. Kanwa Photo
<Kanwa News Hasan Mahmood Sept 20th 2003> Kanwa's correspondent in Islamabad recently obtained Pakistan's official statement concerning the FC1 development project. This official statement revealed that the overall cost of the development project was about US$450 million.
The statement clearly stipulated that the technological standards of FC1 had to attain the following indexes: it can be fitted with anti-ship and anti-radiation missiles, short-range and beyond visual range AAM, LGB, runway penetration bombs and cluster bombs. In addition, it should also be capable of mixing conventional and FBW control systems. The official statement listed the production process of FC1 in details. The process includes the following steps: The draft of the memorandum on joint production of FC1 is going to be completed in September 2003. It provides that Pakistan will have the right to produce 50% of FC1 and reserves the right to produce the aircraft independently.
The memorandum will be formally signed by two sides in December 2003. Pakistan will start technological reform and upgrade in the enterprises that produce FC1 in the year 2004. (Kanwa Digets news, for full story, see Kanwa Issue 920)
the 4th FC1 fighter will be fitted with China-made KLJ10 fire control radar system. In addition, this 4th FC1 fighter has undergone some structural adjustment. FC1 put on display at Zhuhai Air Show 2004 was actually the mock-up of the 4th FC1 fighter finished a short time ago. Analysis of this mock-up fighter reveals that the connecting portion between the mainar, tailfin and the fuselage is reinforced with strip-shaped structure so as to control vortex flow of the aircraft. Meanwhile, the internal capacity of the air-intake channel is also larger. Through such improvements, FC1 has much better manoeuvrability as it still adopts longitudinal dualplex FBW system and conventional mechanical operation for transverse control. In addition, the problem of smoking due to the insufficient air intake will disappear after such improvements.
In terms of fire control radar, the competition between Russian PHAZOTRON and Italian GALILEO AVIONICA is becoming fierce and both companies are attempting to lower the offer price. An exclusive PHAZOTRON source tendering price of KAPYO-F phased array radar is only US$1.2 million, while Italy is offering a price of US$1.6 million for the tendering radar system for FC1.
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Gandhi died by the hands of an assassin; Jinnah died by his devotion to Pakistan. Lord Pethick Lawrence
Old thread is here: http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?t=5407
There is a special Providence in the fall of a sparrow, if it be now, "tis not to come, if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be now, yet it will come, the readiness is all. [Hamlet]
AlhamdulilAllah The Jf-17 is doin very well so far but a lot of the important things r still unclear..
1. Whats the finalcockpit layout? I believe the Sagem proposed a very nice cockpit n if its not the once to be used then wud the chineese version b as good as SAGEM's.
2. As I recall THUNDER was supposed to be a BVR platform along with other requirements. I WONDER WHAT WEAPON?
There is no news abt SD-10 since long now n even though i've been watchin it closely I still am guessin on its status. Then there was a romour abt South African DARTERS (T/R) ,, Cud they be the PICK for PAF? Right now SD-10s r not ready then wht te 6 ACs wud b equiped with?
3. What is going to be the SRAAM of JF-17s? Again! rumours were pakistan actively participating in the development of A-Darters and is also sharing the developing cost.Is it true?
4. Whats the status of PL series of SRAAMs., Any new version proposed for THUNDERS?
5. What is the final weapon pick for JF-17s planned to be inducted for evaluation n training next year.?
Usman/A.Khan
SyedA, Any update on the engine issue? The engine remains my biggest concern for this project. Recent Russian statements about not allowing re-export of the engine to Pakistan are the cause of my concern. Radars, avionics etc are all obviously very important and of great interest but with the RD-93 sword hanging over the projects head - I'm keen for clarification of that issue before anything else.
For answers to some of your questions check this link: http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/a...interview.htmlOriginally Posted by EagleHannan
Regarding the SD-10, it is already in Chinese service and will of course also equip the PAF JF-17’s. The SRAAM will most likely be PL-9C (pure guess on my part).
PS. Didn’t I PM you regarding your username?
There is a special Providence in the fall of a sparrow, if it be now, "tis not to come, if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be now, yet it will come, the readiness is all. [Hamlet]
AFAIK, the stated radar detection range for the Kopyo-F for a standard fighter sized
target is just 75-85 km. Isnt that the same range for the SD-10? We should have a radar
with a range of at least 120km+ to make full use of the BVR capability.
Either that or we will need to have a very good data-lnk system which will
make our AWACS the main controller of missiles at long ranges.
Seems like we are going for the italian radars with french cocppit avionics suite.
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Gandhi died by the hands of an assassin; Jinnah died by his devotion to Pakistan. Lord Pethick Lawrence
I had 4 months ago a tip that PAF officials were negotiating in France for avionics for both Fc1 and J10. No idea what came out of that.
So does JF 17 have full FBW systems with Hydraulic systems as back up only? Or JF 17 controls are mix of FBW systems and Hydraulic systems?
Full FBW. The mix system was only on the first Prototype and later upgraded to full-FBW.
There is a special Providence in the fall of a sparrow, if it be now, "tis not to come, if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be now, yet it will come, the readiness is all. [Hamlet]
Actually the FLCS is full FBW. The hydraulics are there for backup in case 3 of the 4 FBW computers fail[remember JF-17 uses a QUADRUPLEX FBW system]. An analogy can be drawn with the FLCS of the Grippen where in case of FLCS computer failiure, some control surfaces are jammed in peculiar positions to render the plane stable and thus alow it to be flown via conventional hydraulic manual controls.
With today's technology, most BVR engagements would take place within 15-40 Km zone, and considering pak-ind geography this zone could be even lower. Max ranges for missiles are normally those obtained under 'ideal' conditions, something that does not normally happen in 'real' air combat. Having said this, an increased radar range no doubt offers other advantages.AFAIK, the stated radar detection range for the Kopyo-F for a standard fighter sized
target is just 75-85 km. Isnt that the same range for the SD-10? We should have a radar
with a range of at least 120km+ to make full use of the BVR capability.
U can find some good info on BVR/WVR at
http://www.janes.com/aerospace/milit...0529_1_n.shtml
Im not sure if this is possible with current generation of BVRAAMs.Either that or we will need to have a very good data-lnk system which will
make our AWACS the main controller of missiles at long ranges.
June 2004;
The competition for the airborne radar system used on FC1/JF17 FC1 has entered a very critical stage.” Last summer, the company fitted a GRIFO-S7 multi-purpose radar on Sabliner aircraft for testing and invited Pakistani representatives to observe the testing process. Galileo Avionica indicated that if China wants to obtain this type of radar system for further testing, the company would be willing to provide the radar to China.
On August 25, 2003, FC1/JF17 had the first trial flight. Currently, Galileo Avionica is using GRIFO-S7 to compete with the Russian Phazotron Company’s KOPYO F radar. Galileo Avionica demonstrated to Kanwa more details of GRIFO-S7. The radar’s transmitter output power has been increased to 500W, and it uses two types of antenna, with diameters of 600mm and 800mm respectively. The 600mm antennae’s detect range is 80km, while the search range of the 800mm antennae is more than 100km. What is being promoted to Pakistan is the 600mm antenna whose weight is 110kg. Galileo Avionica has conducted a very in-depth study of FC1. Galileo Avionica claims that they can provide 800mm GRIFO-S7 radar for FC1, but this may mean the location of the radar on board will have to be moved 400mm backward. And as a consequence, the whole electronic system will also have to be moved 400mm backwards. Galileo Avionica is capable of conducting such upgrading, and yet the total cost will increase. The GRIFO-S7 fitted with these two types of antenna is capable of tracking 16 targets in the air and attack 6 of them simultaneously. It adopts two-channel receiver data processing system. The MTBF for GRIFO-S7 is 220 hours. Galileo Avionica stresses that GRIFO-S7 is compatible with the SD10 active radar guided AAM weapon control software. GRIFO-S7 has 25 different air-to-air and air-to-surface operation modes.
Kanwa was informed that the French THALES had stepped up their effort to bid for the radar system used on FC1. THALES introduced RC400 to the parties involved and had also invited Pakistan to conduct air test of the system on Falcon 20 this year. RC400 has a weight of 120kg, output power 400W. It adopts mechanical scanning. THALES says the radar is capable of tracking as many as 32 targets in the air simultaneously.
the third prototype of FC1 (JF17) fighter would have flying test in March 2004. The prototype FC1 is expected to conduct flying control experiments.
The fourth FC1 prototype will be fitted with domestic making KLJ10 fire control radar. Thus, whether the Chinese Air Force is going to order FC1 or not will very likely be determined after the flying tests of the fourth FC1 fighter are completed. It is not yet known the history of KLJ10 development. In 1999, China imported four sets of Kapyo radar systems from Russian Phazptron. Pakistan plans to have flying tests of the first batch 12 JF17 fighters from 2006. According to the memorandum signed by the two sides, Pakistan is expected to start the production of FC1 in January 2006. However, Kanwa has doubt about this production schedule, which will very likely be put off till later.
All technological tests of SD10 active radar guidance air-to-air missile have been completed. Small batch production of the missile can start in the middle of this year, the source said. SD10 was first tested on J8II fighters, with all five firing tests hitting the expected targets. A source says the missile will be installed on the fourth FC1 for some further and decisive testing. The source adds China hopes to export FC1 bundled with SD10. Thus, the combat performance of SD10 on FC1 is critical.
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Gandhi died by the hands of an assassin; Jinnah died by his devotion to Pakistan. Lord Pethick Lawrence
Well I think the RC400 version destined for JF-17 was with O/P power of 500Watts meaning more range.The specifications of RC400 are good especially the above quoted 32 multitrackings show the emense DSP power in the modules.The choice of RC400 will be attractive in a way as PAF also uses the Sagem Avionics, resulting in cheaper overall costs.
Does any one know if there are options with Thales for further development to AESA radar.
Not sure if I agree that the cost will be cheaper...afaik, Sagem and Thales are separate companies and ventures. The only thing in common is that they both involve Frecnh/Western technology so not sure how the cost can be brought down...although I admit that I am no expert in eval. of radars, but on paper, the Grifo S7 does look to be the best option. Tracking of 32 vs. engagement of how many is the question in my mind about the RC400? At least at this point we know that S7 can track 16 and engage 6.
Some one posted an article couple of weeks ago which said that Pakistan has stepped down from its requirement for the number of FC-1s from the original 150 in the light of potential acquisition of more F-16s. Is this correct ? Would it be wise for PAF to make that decision ?
Building less? The Pakistani military avaition is depending on it and the aircraft has a lot of potential left. The f16 are just stop gap. They will go on with jf17. Remember they have stopped K8 line just to get better Jf17 line.
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