The BVR Cover

[Wadi]

Greetings,

A question on military jet tactics for those who know.

Firstly, a little disclaimer, my interest in military affairs is completely rudimentary. It’s limited to a game like fascination, and that also to just the airforce. Hey! atleast I admit playing the f-16 Vs mig 29 and F 7 v Mig 21 game!

So the Question.

If Pakistan has BVR missiles, lets say the Sparrow and Super R530 (?), they aren’t exactly cutting edge. Now will the PAF use the doctrine of using it’s F-16s, Mirages (?) for cover using these missiles and F 7s for WVR engagements? If so the AIM 7 was used in Vietnam, is it advanced enough to handle the intricacies of such a doctrine? E.G. The Friend or Foe system, does the bulk of it’s working depend on the Planes Radar APG 66, Griffo M (?), or the seeker in the missile is the actual make or breaker?

Gracias.

[H Khan]

The whole concept of BVR is bascially overblown. Even the AIM-120 the most advanced AMRAAM used in anger combat has less than 50% hit ratio. Uh, this not a scientific data. IDF/AF has very bleek BVR sccuess. Th Iranian used their AIM-54 as anti-ship missiles and the Iraqi used their Super-530 three times without any hits.

Our mindless neighbores towards the east think that half of PAF will be destroyed because of their BVR. Well, if three Mirage fly at 200 feet in the night at 600 knots in tight formation (15 feet apart) how will the BAF differeniate them as three or one aircraft?

Close range dog fight is the name of the game in South asia for another three years before PAF and BAF can claim that they have mastered this aspect of aerial combat.

My humble opionion.

[Wadi]

Originally posted by H Khan
The whole concept of BVR is bascially overblown. Even the AIM-120 the most advanced AMRAAM used in anger combat has less than 50% hit ratio. Uh, this not a scientific data. IDF/AF has very bleek BVR sccuess. Th Iranian used their AIM-54 as anti-ship missiles and the Iraqi used their Super-530 three times without any hits.

Agreed. However, this is my understanding (please correct me or direct me to a site where i can educate myself if i'm mistaken). You know your enemy has BVR..they get a lock on you..you get warning beeps, has to be unsettling, to say the least.
How would you differenciate between just a lock, as opposed to the missile being actually fired. Would you get proximity warnings as well?

Our mindless neighbores towards the east think that half of PAF will be destroyed because of their BVR. Well, if three Mirage fly at 200 feet in the night at 600 knots in tight formation (15 feet apart) how will the BAF differeniate them as three or one aircraft?

India doesn't seem to have a monopoly on these "mindlesses". I've heard my share of K-8, F-6 vs Mirage 200, SU-30 stories.

Interesting point about the tight formation. Any details on how Modern radars actually do discriminate?

Close range dog fight is the name of the game in South asia for another three years before PAF and BAF can claim that they have mastered this aspect of aerial combat.

My humble opionion.

any views on BVR-evasion tactics?

[H Khan]

Originally posted by Wadi

any views on BVR-evasion tactics?

Ooooh, you are 2 years late. Shamyl Effendi gave a very detailed post (graphs, notes, charts etc) on this, alas Shamyl Effendi has vanished into thin air like a fart

[Wadi]

Only if some1 can dig those archives and enlighten us.

Needless to say, i've done my google searches and AFM forums etc. Interesiting stuff there, but lazy me wants answers on the spot

An Interesting forum : (dunno the policy of posting links)

http://www.webruler.com/aircombat/

It seems like a number of pakdef jialay already reside there.

So back to the topic.

Courtesey Aircombat


What exactly does a computer in an aircraft do? (Radar Specific)


While the APG-77 radar sweeps the volumn of space of which it
is capable of, the F-22 also recieves data from AWACS as well
as other F-22s. Aircraft like the F-22, each radar pulse is of
a different frequency and transmitting power level! That make
the radar much harder to detect. It correlates all this infor-
mation into an easy to digest maner. The display shows the
approximate position of enemy aircraft and their range of
detection as well as ground radars and their areas of detection.
This allows the pilot of the F-22 to stay out of detection range
and place itself in a position where it can fire its missiles,
get away unseen and locate to another position where it could
ambush the same group of aircraft again and still remain
detected. This will cause havoc among the top cover during the
day and it night cause a lot of fear from enemy pilots.
When other aircraft become more stealthy, the APG-77 will get
modifications that will allow it to detect the other aircraft
before they detects the F-22! Staying ahead in the "overall"
aspect of tecnology is just part of the cost of the stealth
program.

- even the Sapheer-25 (the radar mounted on upgraded versions, like MiG-25PD and PDS) can detect and track only one target; all the contemporary western radars could track between 10 and 24 targets, and guide up to six missiles (F-14) simultaneously at six of them. Radars like APG-70, APG-71 and more modern ones can not only do the same, but also recognize the identity of the target on the basis of the radar return.

BVR TACTICS

http://pub36.ezboard.com/fskyzersair...picID=90.topic

[Wadi]

I Found this on aircombat. Pretty much speaks for itself.

At $ 500,000 a missile, the AMRAAM solution has a cost 10 times higher than a Sidewinder. It is so expensive that the services have been forced to stop buying the Sidewinder because they can no longer afford both radar-guided and heat-seeking missiles.

In the AMRAAM project office, Air Force Col. James Burton had been handed the job of collecting hard information on the effectiveness of missiles in air-to-air combat. Burton studied all 407 known missile kills made in the air since 1958 (except for the 1967 Middle East war and Pakistan's 1971 clash with India), focusing hard on the 2,014 missile firings made during the Vietnam War and the 1973 and 1982 Middle East skirmishes.

Burton fast became one of the most unpopular men in the Pentagon. He titled the briefing he gave on his findings "Letting Combat Results Shape the Next Air-to-Air Missile." His findings? Of more than 260 Arab aircraft knocked down by Israel in 1973, only five fell to Sparrows in 12 firings. Of the 632 Sparrows fired in all the wars Burton studied, only 73 destroyed the airplane they were fired at, for a kill rating of 11%. The ancient Sidewinder did almost three times better: of some 1,000 Sidewinder firings, 308 kills resulted in a kill rating of 30%

"The most dominant aspect of missile air combat to date has been the requirement to positively identify the target." And the only sure way to do that has been by eye.


Pretty much underlines what H Khan was saying. To Sum up.

1) Conditions necessary for BVR firings rarely exist in real life situations.

2) Simple manouvers (Beam, Burn and run etc) have long been proven effective against PD radars, and thus against BVR missiles.

3) The huge cost associated with these missiles render them beyond mass usability in the South-Asia theatre.

4) Short distances involved in Indo-Pak Scenarios <=-=- Speaks for itself.

5) Inability to effectively discriminate between F O Foe and tight formations.

On the pro side..

1) The major advantage of "deciding the ultimate engagement".

2) The "scare" involved.

3) Waste of precious time and resources in evading BVR missiles.


So what do you guys say ?

So far it's Morale vs Economics/Effectiveness.

[Wadi]

Comeon buddies!

I think there are technical people here. I don't believe the scope is just political/strategic and at best tactical.

Go for it.

My last attempt to revive this thread.

[Aamir M]

BVR has already been discussed to death before Pakdef's last host wiped all the records.

So most people have already been through the whole BVR-issue before!

Sorry!!!

[Wadi]

Actually babu, I was a lurker for a longwhile on the old threads too. I don't think the details of what I am asking were ever fully discussed.
And let me know, how long do I have to live with the NEWBIE ragging?
LETS DISCUSS IT AGAIN!
TYPE ON MY MAN!

[KaleemM]

wadi,

while going through your last 17 posts I surely missed an introduction from you?

Also can you please tell us which part of Pakistan are you from?

[M Ahmed]

Salam,

Needless to say, the PAF has been training intensively for the BVR threat posed by the IAF.

The BVR missile is after all another air-to-air missile,it has limited fuel and is not running on solar power or nuclear energy that it will chase the aircraft to its death over the length and breadth of the country.So tactics of the PAF pilots have improvised devices and situations whereby they would be able to dodge the incoming missile.The IAF does not have hundreds of BVR missiles.
It will be hypothetical to comment on how the actual battle will look,so let's keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best.Inshallah PAF will keep the flag flying high.

Regards.

[FarazA]

Originally posted by mansoor ahmed
Salam,

Needless to say, the PAF has been training intensively for the BVR threat posed by the IAF.

The BVR missile is after all another air-to-air missile,it has limited fuel and is not running on solar power or nuclear energy that it will chase the aircraft to its death over the length and breadth of the country.So tactics of the PAF pilots have improvised devices and situations whereby they would be able to dodge the incoming missile.The IAF does not have hundreds of BVR missiles.
It will be hypothetical to comment on how the actual battle will look,so let's keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best.Inshallah PAF will keep the flag flying high.

Regards.

I agree with you. One way that I dodge them in my Flight sim is when I know they had fire the missile I wait and then try to run away from it and eventually it dies automaticaly. But I lose my gas and then I have to do it untill they run out of them and then I take them down. So it is little hard but can be done.
May Allah Help our Boys.