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Thread: US clears sale of six C130 cargo planes to Pakistan

  1. #1
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    US clears sale of six C130 cargo planes to Pakistan

    WASHINGTON, July 16 (Reuters) - The U.S. Defense Department on Tuesday told lawmakers it had approved the sale to Pakistan, a key ally in the U.S. war on terrorism, of six C130E Hercules cargo aircraft valued at $75 million.

    Congress has 30 days to block the sale, although such a move is considered unlikely.

    The Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which oversees foreign arms sales, said the proposed weapons deal would contribute to U.S. national security by improving the security of "a friendly country which has been and continues to be an important force for economic progress in South Asia."

    Pakistan requested the six used cargo aircraft, as well as several engine and aircraft upgrades, spare parts and personnel training, to remedy a current and long-term airlift shortfall, and to better support the U.S. war in neighboring Afghanistan, the agency said.

    The planes are built by Bethesda, Maryland-based Lockheed Martin Corp.

    It said the sale would not affect the basic military balance in the region, which has been racked by escalating tensions sparked by a bloody Islamic separatist revolt in India's Muslim-majority Kashmir state.

    The United States and Britain have been engaged in shuttle diplomacy to defuse tensions between Pakistan and India, both nuclear powers, encouraging the two nations to engage in dialogue over Kashmir's future.

    The Pentagon has drawn a systematic plan to re-equip Pakistan's armed forces as a reward for Pakistan's support for war on terrorism. It plans to fulfill Pakistan's wish list which includes F-16 fighters, warships, artillery, missiles, helicopters and other military hardware.

    In April, the United States said it planned to sell India eight sophisticated radar systems worth up to $146 million if all options are exercised.






    07/16/02 19:43 ET
    H Khan

    Pakistanis (irrespective of their standing in society) exult gossip, paranoia, superstition, and conspiracy theories more than the science of history- H Khan

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    $75 million is it only for 6 C130Es or for the entire package of several engine and aircraft upgrades, spare parts and personnel training. If it is for aircraft only than it is a very steep price.

    If they want to reward Pakistan, than they should donate the above equipment for free of charge. Interesting to know that they want to fulfill Pakistan’s wish list.

    Hasib

  3. #3
    well these things will start to matter when we will get new F-16 if we will.

  4. #4
    Originally posted by fahadaz
    well these things will start to matter when we will get new F-16 if we will.
    That will most likely never happen.
    Pakistan Zindabad

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    US NOTIFIES INTENTION TO SELL SIX C-130S TO PAKISTAN T V PARASURAM.


    Washington, July 17 (PTI) The United States is planning to sell six C-130E Cargo aircraft and accessories worth 75 million dollars to Pakistan, saying the move will not upset the basic military balance in the region.
    The Defence Security Cooperation Agency has notified Congress of a possible sale of the aircraft, associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $75 million, the Pentagon said.
    Pakistan's acquirement of these aircraft and support will not affect the basic military balance in the region, it added.
    "Pakistan needs these aircraft to support a current and long-term airlift shortfall, both for Pakistan Air Force internal requirements, and as it seeks to support the US Government with Operation Enduring Freedom. These aircraft will be used for the purpose of providing airlift support."
    The proposed sale "will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country which has been and continues to be an important force for economic progress in South Asia," the Pentagon press release said.
    The Government of Pakistan, it said, had requested six used C-130E aircraft with engines, spare parts, training personnel, equipment, logistics support and assistance in upgradation of engines.
    The notice of a potential sale, the release said, is required by law; it does not mean that the sale has been concluded. PTI TVP TCK ask SKM PTI NNN.

    (c) 2002 OANA-Press Trust of India. All Rights Reserved.
    http://www.oananews.com.

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    Peanuts!

    Too little too late. The C-130E is the obsolete version already flown by PAF. The latest variant is the C-130J.

    Basically, these tantamount to nothing more than attrition replacements of the 9 C-130s which we have lost since 1966, two of them in 1998 in that silly and totally unnecessary collision at Chaklala.

    This does not substantially upgrade Pakistan's tactical airlift capabilities. The fact that they are second-hand will mean increased maintenance costs.
    Last edited by RMS Azam; 07-17-2002 at 11:07 AM.
    R.M.S. Azam

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    RMS
    That may be the very reason we requested it!
    Why pay mega bucks for 6 "J"s that have glass cockpitys and different engines (requiring an almost totally new logistics chain), when we can get 6 "E", spare engines, spare parts etc for just
    $75million!?
    These planes can be put to immidiate use as our pilots will not need training etc.

    $75 million would only buy 2 "J"s at the most!

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    What is the total no of C130s in PAF fleet at the moment? How many how been lost to attrition in the past? What are major differnces between the E and J models? Any chance that these new birds will be used as platforms for ECW?

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    I think we had about 15 (including one L-100) and are now down to about 12, these new birds should bring the fleet up to 18/19
    aircraft. Dont think we would use all 6 for EW, maybe convert just 2.

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    Cheers bro. Any major advantage for PAF buying 2 "Js" instead of 6 "Es"?

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    Here is the record of the PAF C-130s that have been lost till date, a total of 9 aircraft (this isn't classified information for those who care to know):

    - 1 C-130B (S. No. 24142) was lost in July 1966 after crashing into a mountain in mist in Gilgit/Skardu?.

    - 1 L-100 (S. No. 64145) was lost on 30 April 1968 at PAFB Chaklala.

    - 1 C-130B (S. No. AP-HFQ/No. ?) was lost on 8 July 1968 after it caught fire while refuelling at PAFB Chaklala.

    - 1 C-130B (S. No. 23489) crashed on 4 March 1970.

    - 2 C-130Bs (S. Nos. 10687 & AP-HFP/23488) were destroyed when one collided with another on 1 February 1979 at PAFB Lahore (a feat unfortunately to be repeated almost 20 years later at Chaklala).

    - The most famous C-130 loss of all time, 1 C-130B (S. No. 23494) was lost when it crashed with President Zia-ul-Haq and the entire Pak Army high command on board on 17 August 1988 7km north of Bahawalpur, due to sabotage.

    - 2 C-130Bs (S. Nos. 23491 & 24143 ) were lost in a ground collision due to break failure on 10 September 1998 at PAFB Chaklala.
    Last edited by RMS Azam; 07-17-2002 at 10:58 AM.
    R.M.S. Azam

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    No real advantge in buying 2 "J"s!
    Its an almost completly new plane! Why operate just two , when we are already using "E"s!?

    On top of that the RAF (First customer to order the "J") is still waiting for teh rest of its planes, then the USAF, Italy and Australia are all in the que. It would be at least 2006 till PAF got its first "J"s. Who knows what the US attitude to Pakistan would be by then!? Right now we can have 6 "E"s ready to be delivered almost straight away! Very shrewd and wise decision by ACM Mir if you ask me!!!!!!

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    PS
    The CN-235's we have on order will probably be used for EW no use wasting something as big as a C-130.

  14. #14
    Personally Im more interested in the aircraft upgrades and the engines..... does anybody know what sort of upgrades we're talking about??

    Although I still do think that purchasing Antonovs from Ukraine will be the best possible solution to meet the PAF/PN airlift capabilities for the future..... However with the PAF going for second hand C130s and Cn235s I dont think that purchasing the An-70/72 and An32 is a high priority.
    “In times of conflict the soldier does not control the war, rather the war controls the soldier. Occasionally, in the midst of such chaos and insanity windows of opportunity appear open to exploitation. It is how the window of opportunity is exploited, by the soldier, that defines the battle.... a battle which upholds the fallacy of the soldier in control of the war” (Anonymous).

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    PAF has already upgraded the Allison engines on its entire fleet, effectively bringing them up to C-130H standard. I think the new US deal will provided us with the kit to upgrade the 6 "new" "E"s to H standard.

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    According to this Indian article PAF has 13 C130s.



    PAK AIR FORCE TO GET 4 INDONESIAN TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT.


    Islamabad, Mar 8 (PTI) Pakistan Air Force would add four Indonesian CASA CN235-220 light transport and surveillance aircraft to its inventory this year to offset the advantage Indian Air Force has over it.
    The deal for the aircraft was finalised in June 2001 at a cost of 49 million dollars with Indonesian Aerospace (PT Dirgantara Indonesia), which makes CASA CN235-220 under license from Spain, the Dawn newspaper reported quoting reliable sources.
    The officials have been given training on the aircraft in Indonesia and the delivery of the planes is expected soon, it said.
    In May 1998, the Nawaz Sharif government had dropped the plans of buying 10 Spanish-designed CN-235 light transport aircraft for the Air Force from Turkey due to financial constraints.
    Officials said the Indonesian deal was necessitated to offset the advantage in transport aircraft which the Indian Air Force had over the PAF.
    The four CASA CN-235-220 would add to PAF's transport fleet having C-130 aircraft (5-B and 7-B), L-100, Boeing 707s, Falcon 20s and F-27-200s, the sources said.
    (c) 2002 Asia Pulse Pte Limited.
    Asia Pulse gives no warranty or guarantee as to the accuracy of the information, Asia Pulse shall not be liable for errors or omissions in, or delays or interruptions to or cessation of delivery of, the data through its negligence or otherwise.

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    Thumbs up

    So, in just the last few months, Pakistan has purchased or obtained:

    4 CN235 Transport Aircraft
    6 C130E Transport Aircraft
    12 MI17 Helis
    5 UH-1H Helis
    3 Unknown Surveillance Aircraft

    Should make a significant difference to tactical airlift and border surveillance capabilities of Pakistan armed forces.

  18. #18
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    Originally posted by MohammedA
    So, in just the last few months, Pakistan has purchased or obtained:

    4 CN235 Transport Aircraft
    6 C130E Transport Aircraft
    12 MI17 Helis
    5 UH-1H Helis
    3 Unknown Surveillance Aircraft

    Should make a significant difference to tactical airlift and border surveillance capabilities of Pakistan armed forces.
    what is the delivery date for CN235 and is it a confirmed order?

    UA
    Last edited by uazim; 07-17-2002 at 12:16 PM.

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    Originally posted by yasser
    No real advantge in buying 2 "J"s!
    Its an almost completly new plane! Why operate just two , when we are already using "E"s!?

    On top of that the RAF (First customer to order the "J") is still waiting for teh rest of its planes, then the USAF, Italy and Australia are all in the que. It would be at least 2006 till PAF got its first "J"s. Who knows what the US attitude to Pakistan would be by then!? Right now we can have 6 "E"s ready to be delivered almost straight away! Very shrewd and wise decision by ACM Mir if you ask me!!!!!!
    Some of us like to get the most recent toy regardless the need and other issues involved with induction,

    UA

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    Originally posted by yasser
    No real advantge in buying 2 "J"s!
    Its an almost completly new plane! Why operate just two , when we are already using "E"s!?
    Who says buy two C-130Js? Start investing in Antonov An-70s. US is going to screw us in a few years anyway. Ukraine is offering local assembly of Antonov An-70 if PAF buys at least 10. In any case, we can buy fewer off the shelf from Ukraine. Antonov-70 has superior airlift capabilities than the C-130J. In any case, PAF had selected An-70 as a possible future replacement for its ageing C-130s.

    C-130J:

    Accomodation: 2 pilots, 1 flight engineer, 1 navigator, 92 troops OR 64 paratroops OR 74 stretchers
    Max Speed: 374 mph or 602 km/h
    Thrust: 18,032shp (13,448 kW)
    Range: 4,250 nm or 7,876 km
    Length: 97 feet 9 inches
    Wingspan: 132 feet 7 inches
    Height: 38 feet 3 inches

    An-70:

    Accomodation: 2 pilots, 1 flight engineer, 170 troops
    Max Speed: 497 mph or 800 km/h
    Thrust: 55,200shp (41,160 kW)
    Range: 3,910 nm or 7,250 km
    Length: 132 feet
    Wingspan: 144 feet 6 inches
    Height: 52 feet

    The only factor in which the C-130 is superior to the An-70 is in range. Also, the An-70 has the lowest running costs for a aircraft of its size. An-70 was offered to the RAF for replacement of C-130s. It was shortlisted and lost out to the C-130J.
    Last edited by RMS Azam; 07-17-2002 at 01:19 PM.
    R.M.S. Azam

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    Posted by RMS Azam
    "Too little too late. The C-130E is the obsolete version already flown by PAF. The latest variant is the C-130J."

    You suggested it......

    AN-70 is a waste of time, no else has ordered it, we would be the Guinea pigs for this aircraft!

    We would have to cover development costs too!

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    Originally posted by yasser
    Posted by RMS Azam
    "Too little too late. The C-130E is the obsolete version already flown by PAF. The latest variant is the C-130J."

    You suggested it......

    AN-70 is a waste of time, no else has ordered it, we would be the Guinea pigs for this aircraft!

    We would have to cover development costs too!
    Besides there is no aircraft in the world which is better than C-130 in its class, the difference between the C-130 and nearest challenger is so big that given the chance nobody will buy anything besides C-130.
    Even Ukranian might go for it

    UA

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    Originally posted by uazim


    Besides there is no aircraft in the world which is better than C-130 in its class, the difference between the C-130 and nearest challenger is so big that given the chance nobody will buy anything besides C-130.
    Even Ukranian might go for it

    UA
    Your statement is not based on facts, it is based on sentiment. Look at the stats I've given you.

    "The great are only great because we are on our knees".

    Ever heard of "old wives' tales"? Well, the capability of the C-130 is one of the biggest old wives tales in the military aviation community. The C-130 is king of the mountain because for 3 decades there was no competitor. This was the only tactical transport aircraft of its size available to NATO in the post-WWII period. So almost every NATO country got some, as did some CENTO and SEATO countries like Pakistan.

    One of the most important factors in judging airlift capabilities of a tactical transport is maximum take-off weight (MTOW). This determines the payload capability of the aircraft. Bear in mind that An-70 and C-130J fall in the same category of medium-lift tactical transports. The following will give you more food for thought in judging which aircraft is superior:

    C-130J MTOW: 155,000 lbs. (70,310 kg)

    An-70 MTOW: 286,600 lbs. (130,000 kg)

    This is for two aircraft of the same category. The source of all my statistics is Jane's.
    Last edited by RMS Azam; 07-17-2002 at 01:53 PM.
    R.M.S. Azam

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    As long as the airframe has life in it, the E is the correct choice. Commonality with other C130's will reduce operations cost a lot.

    Didn't the PAF order Chinese transport too some time back, the Y-12 or something. Was it ever ordered or was it just a rumour ?
    The light that optimistic George Bush sees at the end of the Iraq tunnel is probably an onrushing truck, loaded with explosives.
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    Originally posted by Noman
    As long as the airframe has life in it, the E is the correct choice. Commonality with other C130's will reduce operations cost a lot.

    Didn't the PAF order Chinese transport too some time back, the Y-12 or something. Was it ever ordered or was it just a rumour ?
    PAF has long taken delivery of 2 HAMC Y-12 (II) from China. Y-12 is not a tactical transport aircraft. It is a light utility/liason aircraft smaller than the Fokker F-27.
    R.M.S. Azam

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