Pak Navy related discussion: August - October 2009

[Sabre]

But not TOT

Nops. What PN should do is lease these 4 till the ToT for 3 subs takes place or buy these 4 and go for the deal of 3 subs with ToT at the same time. Former PN chief said PN needs at least 10 subs so by 2020:

U214 (4+3) = 7
Agosta-90B = 3
Total = 10 Subs

[Muhammad Hasan]

As for going for four plus three, PN cannot afford seven 214s.

Interesting thing that came to my mind is if PN gets Greek subs, it would not be first time that subs originally made for some other country eventually ended up in Pak colors. Agosta 70s were originally built for South African navy, but ended up with us due to US embargo on South Africa. Also, Daphne class sub Ghazi surved Portugese navy for eight years and than joined PN.

[Hasib]

Not withstanding the financial cost, it would be a great addition if PN can get 4+3 U214 submarines. This with the addition of 4 F-22 frigates and the speculation about 3 Nakhoda Ragam class OPV corvettes, on a short term basis it will greatly enhance PN operational and strike capabilities. F-22 & OPV could be used for littoral warfare. Where as U214 and Agosta 90 could be deployed to maintain an offensive posture in the event of armed hostilities.

[faisalqayyum72]

it would be more appropriate if we can get U214 submarines instead of F-22 frigates. Submarines are difficult to attack and probably survive during surprise air attacks. But Frigates are more prone to surprise air attacks. Similarly we don't have strong air defence against India and Nato forces.

[Rafi]

If arbitration on the Greek subs fails, I'm told there is a chance that these subs could enter Pak Navy's ORBAT - I'm told initial contacts have been made with the PN, and a couple of other potential clients, the possibility of these entering the German Navy is also a small possibility.

[mominkhan]

Holy wet dhotis, Batman! Germans would not be cancelling their contracts with the Greeks, if they did not have an alternative buyer.

[MSaadU]

If the 3+4U214's dream becomes true then we need some Submarine Resuce Vessels(Motherships) too right or SRV's are only necessary when operating SSN's or SSBN's. This additional 4 U214's procurement will certainly help strengthen our defences, I wish this could materialise into reality.

[FaisalK]

Holy wet dhotis, Batman! Germans would not be cancelling their contracts with the Greeks, if they did not have an alternative buyer.

Possibly, but I still think the 4 ex-Greek would be in addition to the 3 already planned.

The ex-Greek ones can meet our needs in a fairly short span of time, but they also give us more flexibility in terms of the later batch. For example, we can look into the possibility of cooperating with the Turks on an upgraded U-214 (similar to Agosta-90B to Agosta-70).

[Boota]

My view. Take the 4 if we can. Forget about the other 3. Use those resources and effort to get a hull from China or build our own and put in our own reactor. If France and Brazil can do it so can we. U-214 is a great sub but it is not a game changer. 30 years down the road all of them will be beached on Gaddani with a lot happy kids and grand kids of happily retired HDW dock workers.

[Mario]

My view. Take the 4 if we can. Forget about the other 3. Use those resources and effort to get a hull from China or build our own and put in our own reactor. If France and Brazil can do it so can we. U-214 is a great sub but it is not a game changer. 30 years down the road all of them will be beached on Gaddani with a lot happy kids and grand kids of happily retired HDW dock workers.

Approximately same words from me, if it is possible then it is extremely wise to get readymade subs, and start work on your nuclear powered subs.

[SyedA]

I say buy these 3 subs and place an order for 2 Merlins.... keep the french happy and get a discount on their radars and missiles for JF-17.

[mominkhan]

Technological challenges are aplenty. This requires a thorough assessment of our engineering capabilities. I frankly think that we should get some of these off the shelf and then have a joint program with the Turks for our next generation sub. This sub should have a nuclear propulsion option. With the Turks on our side, the job gets to be much easier. We should decide what will be in common between U-214 and our next generation sub and just get that TOT from HDW.

[SSAAD]

If we do not get at least 1-2 of these boats, the IN is always another option for HDW.

[Rafi]

If we do not get at least 1-2 of these boats, the IN is always another option for HDW.

I think you will find that HDW was blacklisted by the then congress govt, when it was proven that kickbacks were given as sweeteners in their 209 deal. Or are you referring to IDF Navy perhaps ? - Which is also unlikely as they would prefer their subs to be paid for - by the German taxpayers.

That is why HDW did not take part in the tender, which was won by the French for the Scorpene deal.

I have been told that Poland is possibly interested in 1 sub, the South Koreans in another 2 - with 1 possibly going to the German Navy, also the Chileans have an eye on 1 (if the price is right) but according to a very good source the Germans would prefer to offload all 4 subs as part of a single deal, the only country in the reckoning for that is yours truly.

* A note of warning *

There is also the potential for this to be stuck in the court of arbitration for years to come, as the Greeks and the Gerrys are deadly serious about this.

[H Khan]

I think nothing.....

[Mario]

I think nothing.....

Appreciated thinking

[Aziz]

Guys, arbitration of a multi million dollar international commercial dispute isn't dealt with quickly.

Let us be less optimistic and then anything that comes our way will be a bonus.

Aziz

[SSAAD]

I think you will find that HDW was blacklisted by the then congress govt, when it was proven that kickbacks were given as sweeteners in their 209 deal. Or are you referring to IDF Navy perhaps ? - Which is also unlikely as they would prefer their subs to be paid for - by the German taxpayers.

That is why HDW did not take part in the tender, which was won by the French for the Scorpene deal.

I have been told that Poland is possibly interested in 1 sub, the South Koreans in another 2 - with 1 possibly going to the German Navy, also the Chileans have an eye on 1 (if the price is right) but according to a very good source the Germans would prefer to offload all 4 subs as part of a single deal, the only country in the reckoning for that is yours truly.

* A note of warning *

There is also the potential for this to be stuck in the court of arbitration for years to come, as the Greeks and the Gerrys are deadly serious about this.

I was referring to the Indian Navy. The issue of black listing is all smoke and mirrors. Just recently they removed the ban on Bofors just because the IA wanted to buy from them. If the IN get a good offer, they definitely have the money to go after these boats which would put the PN in an ever tougher tight spot.

[Gaf]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8277526.stm

U214s deal getting closer ?

[zia ul haq]

Asalamo-a-laikum.

We hope so. That's been the general idea, that the deal would get the go ahead after the German elections.

The new government is likely to be pro-business and and anti-BS so are unlikely to heed any rubbish spouted against the deal by the Greens.

[Mario]

Greece
The Greece Papanikolis U214 class is equipped with a hoistable radar mast which does not penetrate the pressure hull of the submarine. In the top of the radar mast the radar transmitter is installed. This transmitter is part of the SPHINX Radar System supplied by Thales Defence Deutschland GmbH in Kiel. The radar sensor is a FMCW transceiver which can't be detected by ESM systems in medium terms. This technology is so called LPI radar, which means "Low probability of intercept". The transmitting power is lower than the power of a mobile phone but the resolution more precise compared to high power Pulse radar. Thales SPHINX radar is a tactical radar, designed for submarines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_214_submarine

go go go for it, before chiryaan chug jain khait

[asfanyarahmad]

Assalamoalaikum
Asper naval chief, we need 12-14 subs but when I posted the options for subs after signing the deal for three U-214s, usman bhai replied thattime was not important but the real matter was money and these deals are made for a long time strategy. So I want to ask a question, can PN afford to go for all these four subs instead of three? some of the members posted the wish for 4+3 but for me,I will take fantasy of the deal for even four subs instead of three.

[MSaadU]

Asfanyar Sahab, how can a TOT could happen if we bought subs off the shelf. These 4 Greek subs are ready to deliver while we want a TOT deal so that we have a new hull design knowledge and the 3 subs that we want to buy are to be build in Pakistani Shipyard and not on foreign soil. These 4 subs could just give a numerical advantage plus the stress on the hulls would be reduced when they are deployed in the international waters as we could used rotational policy of deploying them.

[ARMalik]

ToT can happen even with construction of one U-214 domestically after a few years. However, it is strategically imperative to get these Subs ASAP. Such golden opportunities which can tilt the balance of power are very rare commodities.

[Sabre]

A lease for 2 years shouldn't be bad idea. PN can should get 2 on lease still 1st U-214 is ready, which will take 5 years from the contract signing. Hand over the two as soon as 2nd U214 is ready. This should be relatively economical and Pakistan will also receive the TOT.