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F-22P
Now there is definate confusion in my mind regarding these boats, are they the JiangwiaII or they a newer design. According to the picture on the Ideas 02 special on the main page (Pakdef) the picture for F-22P looks much too stealthy to be the JiangwiaII.
Calling all sailors and maritime experts to give their opinions.
Can we also open a discussion regarding the operational capabilities of these vessals and their pros and cons.
F22P is an modified version of JiangwiaII. I think sinodefence.com has its specs in the JiangwiaII section with pictures.
I think type 054 will be a better choice than JWII. Then again, we really don't know what P-22N look like until it is read, so rest are just rumors.
The Model of F-22P resembles type 054 quite a bit. Had same concerns as JW-II have no stealth features at all.
Aparently at this point no one is sure if its JW-II or type 054 except perhaps for navy top brass.
Apparently according to Janes Naval monthly the PN is planning to induct 8-10 F22Ps (according to Janes said to be the Type 053H3 and not the 054) and 5 Agosta 90Bs over the next 10 yrs. Dont have a link to the article but if anybody does subscribe to Janes Naval Monthly pls. can you confirm the above.
Also has anybody heard of the Agosta 90C (apparently modified version of the Agosta 90b to carry nuke tipped ballistic missiles) ???
Agosta's not big enough (i.e. wide/high) to carry Ballistic Missiles. Cruise may be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sultan
Sorry, my mistake it is intended to carry cruise missiles rather than ballistic (wonder what sort of cruise missiles we're talking about). I havent got hold of the article in Janes yet but the Agosta 90c (if it indeed does exist) could be the PN's solution for a sea based delivery system. We're the only ones that operate the Agosta 90bs and in line with recent statement by the PN chief about the need for equipping the service with nuke delivery platforms it could be a real possibility. Alternatively the 90c could be India's ATV programme.
Sultan,
Your task from today is to get the Jane's Naval Monthly.........
So Janes mentioned something about Agosta 90C? Especially that Agosta 90C really got me excited. I was wondering how much of AGosta 90B we can build right now? And will we ever get the 100% Transfer of Tech?
Hummmmm, NO. No one except Israel gets that privledge in this world, even then with conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by usam
Can some one explain to me the roles and responsibilities of PN Marines and the SSG-N units. What are their areas of resposibilities and what all are they trained for ?
Also an Airforce SSG group is being raised. What will be the responisibilities assigned to them ?
Marines are basically Naval infantry responsible for Naval asset & force protection. Their only offensive role would be to possibly conduct an amphibious assault however at this time the Marines are still in their infancy in terms of assets and HW available to undertake such missions. These guys are trained at the Sind Regimental Training Center and then are further trained for their trade at the respective Navy school.Quote:
Originally Posted by sargam
SSG/N is obvioulsy an elite special forces formation.. Suffice it to say their role would be what all typical naval special forces such as SEALS, SBS etc. etc. entail...
All special warfare taskings (such as assaults against enemy off-shore and shore-based facilities, recce and possibly target designation etc.) on and beyond the Pakistani sea coast is their domain. SSG/A is responsible for riverine operations inside of Pakistan.
lastly, very little is known about the PAF SSG. I have not seen much info on it besides the fact that they are what used to be PAF ground combateers (some trained by SSG/A) and now have their own specialized outfit.
Hth
Seems to me that PAF SSG have teh same role as "RAF Regiment" in UK which mainly protects the airbases.
The SSG of air force is called "SSW(special serviceswing)" .If you people are aware of the history,in 1965 the PAF paradropped SSG troops on Indian air bases and this was also repeated in the 1971 war specialy in the recapture of air strips in East Pakistan.But now this task will be repeated by the air force's own unit(SSW).But in peace time it has the role of protecting the chief of the air staff and they will also be responsible for protection of vital points of PAF.They were also responsible for the security of air force day celebrations.The security of PAF bases is curently done by a unit called DSG(defence sevices gaurd) and the PAF's own police called PAF Police.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafaqat
The same is the case with NSSG(naval special services group) they are job is just like the US SEALS .They will carry out coverte strikes on enemies naval establishments.They could also strike an enemies ship.They are also responsible for the protection of naval chief.
bilkul.
they will specialize in there type of operations instead of using same training to do it all. this will allow the men to be trained further iinto the area of experties.
Osama,Quote:
Originally Posted by Osama Ishfaq
There was no SSG operation during the 1971 war entailing the recapture of any air strips in EP. There is a fictional picture of the SSG operators disembarking from C-130s that many have assumed to be a an actual event. Most of the SSG ops involving air support during the 1971 war were heli-operations.
Remember that Janes article(s) from IDEAS2004? There was something said about PN ordering 4 more frigates and 4 more submarines in addition to the 4 F-22Ps and 3 Agosta-90Bs planned?. Just scroll down on this link. http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpos...6&postcount=21
It worries me that we are transforming out navy (10 P-3s, more frigates, more subs, more phalanax), with still no 4th generation fighter in PAF colours yet.....
F-22 Frigate will modified these system (IDEAS-2004 Exibition report)
THALES naval group will provide its two or three radar system for F-22 frigates
1) SMART-S MK-2: Medium to longe range 3D surveillance radar
maximum ranger 250 km/ minimum 150 meters, tracking 3D capacity ait+surface 500 targets, detection accuracyfor small missile`50km, MPA `200km, E/Fband frequency band,it is capablefor surface surveillance, surface gun fire support, jammer surveillance , IFF interrogation support, detection ECCM techniques,
2)SCOUT MK2: I BAND radar( www.thales-naval.nl).
German company Atlas elekktronik(a BAE SYSTEM company) offer its ASO-94 hull mounted sonar system for PN F-22 frigates, ASO-94 is medium frequency sonar system,its designed for the surveillance of the underwater environment for detection, localisation, classification and tracking of targets. choice of defferent operational modes and parameter settings allow for optimal detection of targets in littoral (shallow) and deep water.the sonar efficiently can be use for the classical ASW tasks the ASO94 sonar is capable to detect: Submarine, Midget, mini submarines,AUVs and UUVs ,Torpedoes, Moored mines and underwater obstacles, surface vessels, speed boats etc.( see: www.atlas.de)
German company atlas elektronik will supply its new state of the art fiber optic wire guided SEAHAKE MOD-4 torpedo, it is passive and combine passive/active operating multi-frequency torpedo, high speed fully digitally,and i can't belive its rang up to 50km, yes its true,its hase 3 batteries, torpedo lenght 6600mm, this torpedo offer to pakistan navy's AGOSTA90B submarines, MBD.A's display SEASPIDER torpedo, it is a anti torpedo.
MBD.A missile system display its ASPIDE2000 sam system ,pakistan intrest in this missil system for its land based defence, ASPIDE/SPADA2000 semi active missil with a range in excess of 20 km ,its capable to defeat aircradft and PGM weapons.
MBD.A missile system also dispaly its ERYX man-portable anti tank multirole fire support weapon against all ground targets, 95% hit result, direct attack, wire guided, tendem warhead, 50 to 600 meters range,13 kg weight, this missile offer too.
MBD.A display its Exocet missile family AM-39, SM39 and MM-40 BLOCK-3, pakistan will get chinese F-22 frigates this company intrest showing to puchase MM-40 block3 long rang anti ship missile to PN,
MM40 block2 is 3rd generation 70 km range missile but block 3 is 4th generation 180km range, high subsonic speed, dvance seeker / GPS/ leser gyro nevigation guidence, this missile available in 2007
Asalaamo-a-laikum.
Are the F-22P Frigates and the China Shipbuilding Industry Co, (CSIC) F16U export frigate, the same design?
If so the F-22P design led on the Ma’anshan class (Type 054). No information really available though.
I think the nomenclature of F-22P follows from PN operating type-21 frigates already and hence the future frigates being "F-22" and P may be for Paksitan aswell. Just like JF-17 following from F-16 for PAF. I do not know if it is the same as F-16U or not but probably if the same ships as pakistan were to be exported to another country might carry another designation.
Asalaamo-a-laikum.
Rather stupidly that didn't actually occur to me. Ahem.
Anyway, we have two candidates as to what the F-22P actually is. The most likely candidate is the China Shipbuilding Industry Co, (CSIC), F16U 'Export Frigate'. This frigate was the inspiration for new PLAN Ma’anshan class (Type 054) Class frigate. It is unclear what differences if any exist between the two designs.
Or we might be going for local build of the Type 054. We don't even have a picture yet so we'll see what happens.
Here is some information that might be useful for some of you people. This info was given by Rashid bhai :
* The weapons and sensors will be mostly chinese with some of it western.
* Missiles are C-802 SSM & FM-90(N) SAM (HQ-7).
* The engines are 4 MTU (German) diesels.
* All communication equipment will be German.
* The radars, ESM, ECM and sonars will be of chinese origin mostly copied from the western systems.
* The main gun and the AA guns are also chinese. Link Y will be installed. (what is LINK Y ?)
* The helicopter is the Z-9C.
SUPER-7FC-1, did you see a model of F-22P at IDEAS-2004 ?
"Missiles are C-802 SSM"
I hope its got sharper teeth then that.
I was sure they would equip the F-22Ps with
C-803s, they might not be advertizing that
because I think the C-803 still hasnt been
revealed to the public.
As far as I remember, I heard the F--22P was
being fitted with long range radars. The Z-9C
is also most likely to have data-links to direct
OTH AShMs. That would explain why we are
going with "Chinese Sensors". Is the "Link Y" the
Chinese Data-Link?
You know we did have some discussion with Rashed saheb about that...I think we need to pull the archives out on this one as there was some mention of C-803s equipping these ships...
This is what my understanding was after speaking with Rashed saheb (his response was in his personal capacity...so nothing specific and obviously subject to change):
"Radar Western
ESM Chinese
SAM Chinese
SSM Chinese
Sonar Western
C3 Western
This is not the exact detail but it would be some what like this. The chinese missile systems have certainly matured enough to be used by the PN and we have been using them for some time now, their other electronic systems are also quite good now but we havent tried any of their new systems."
As you can see, there is very little difference of origin on some of the stuff from what Mohammed Hasan posted above.
Hth
M Ehsan, PN has conducted tests of C-802 from 120 KM, and it is very much satisfied with its performance. And PN has been using it for some times as said by Syed Saad. Regarding C-803, it may be installed, but on a later stage as it is still under going trails.
Rashid bhai told us the C3 system is a chinese copy of a French system, and so are many other sensors.
Anyways, complete specification of F-22P frigates will be out soon, when the deal will be signed. The most intresting thing regarding these frigates is there design, which has created a lot of confusion... :rolleyes:
Jinaab, if I am not mistaken, the PN already has the
C-802 in its service on other ships such as some of
our Fast Attack boats. But you are right sir, we probably
will induct the C803 later when it becomes available.
And I can understand why people would be hyping the
design of these ships, but from an operational point
of view, I doubt there is any stealth achieved through
that design at all. And the same can be said of the
new Indian Destroyer, even the new Chinese ships.
I was told once that just the hull having nice looking shapes doesnt do much.
Every exposed component has to have a low RCS, and
with all these ships, there are just too many things sticking
out from every position which will make the "stealth"
negligible. The only true Stealth ship I have seen so far has
to be the Swedish Visby. I heard they are also testing a new
countermeasure to incoming radar guided missiles, and its
very ingenious.
Its basically a system which clouds the ship with a spray
of sea water. This completely blinds the sensors of the incoming
missile and/or any guiding entity. And since this is such a
simple concept, we should think about installing our own ships
with something similar.
This is what my understanding was after speaking with Rashed saheb (his response was in his personal capacity...so nothing specific and obviously subject to change):
"Radar Western
ESM Chinese
SAM Chinese
SSM Chinese
Sonar Western
C3 Western
Pak Army also operate HHQ 7, thus the support requirement is a none issue.