Pakistan to acquire anti-ballistic missile from U.S.

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11-04-2002 02:10 PM
Junaid

Pakistan to acquire anti-ballistic missile from U.S.

ASAK,

Any credence to this news report?

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Pakistan to acquire anti-ballistic missile from U.S.

.c Kyodo News Service

ISLAMABAD, Nov. 4 (Kyodo) - (EDS: FIXING NAME IN LEAD PARA)

Pakistan's President Gen. Pervez Musharraf has approved the acquisition of an anti-ballistic missile system from the United States to be deployed at key sensitive installations and nuclear facilities, authoritative defense sources said Monday.

Speaking to Kyodo News on condition of anonymity, the sources said the Defense Ministry has narrowed down its choices to the Patriot Air Defense System, the Nike Hercules missiles and the Hawk missile system.

The deal is estimated to cost more than $1.5 billion and would be in addition to the military purchase that Pakistan has been negotiating with the U.S. under the aegis of the Pakistan-U.S. Defense Consultative Group, which met in Islamabad in September this year.

Washington has lifted a 1990 ban on supply of military equipment to Pakistan after Musharraf backed the U.S. in its war against terrorism following the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks in the U.S.

The sources said preliminary talks have been held with the U.S., which reportedly has expressed its willingness to supply an anti-missile system to Pakistan to discourage further missile proliferation in the region.

Pakistan and India have been engaged in a tit-for-tat race to develop nuclear weapon and missiles. Pakistan's decision to acquire an anti-ballistic missile system was an apparent reaction to an anti-ballistic missile successfully test-fired by India in October this year.

The defense sources said Pakistan was moved to acquire a U.S. anti-ballistic missile system following reliable reports that India was exploring the feasibility of acquiring an anti-ballistic missile system from Russia.

The three types of U.S. antimissile systems under consideration are readily available and delivery time is not expected to be long, the sources said.

The sources said the anti-ballistic missile system to be acquired from the U.S. would be deployed mainly at nuclear facilities, and sites where indigenously built-short and medium-range missiles are stored or deployed.

The Patriot is a long-range, all-altitude, all-weather air defense system to counter ballistic missiles. The Hawk missile system can be used against enemy aircraft and is capable of intercepting and destroying enemy missiles. The Nike Hercules missile is an anti-missile system in use by the U.S. and NATO forces.

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Wassalaam,
Junaid
11-04-2002 03:58 PM
nasim

At least this article is not claiming that pakistan somehow already has a high altitude SAM or somehow developed an anti ballistic missile shield by itself. So to that extent, this article is a relief since I thought it would be another headline from a small paper that, in pakistans case, ususally does not have the facts right.

I dont think this article is stretching the truth though. We all know pakistan has an enormous gap to fill when it comes to high altitude air defence and it is not surprise to me that pakistan is tossing a hat out in the market to see where the winds are blowing. The acquisition of a long range sam system is cruicial and I have been wondering for years now why a chinese system was not brought in as a stop gap if western systems were not available. There is no reason to doubt pakistan is discussing this sort of acquisition so I would believe the article. Whether it is approved is another matter though and that is something I am not sure of. You can be sure of one thing though. If pakistan is allowed to purchase the patriot, nike or hawk systems, you can bet the israelis will be allowed to send anything and everything the indians are willing to pay for without worrying about US veto's.
11-04-2002 07:33 PM
Murad

Just the fact that this report mentions Nike Hercules and Hawk along with Patriot as shortlisted choices makes it suspect. Since when did Nike Hercules and Hawk become anti ballistic missile systems? The US deactivated it's Nike batteries back in the late 70s and Hawk in late 90s.

It's very possible that Pakistan has discussed a need for such a system (Patriot) but it would be surprising that a huge sum of $1.5 billion has been allocated for this particular need when the very importnat issue of new aircraft for the PAF is still pending. These reports often make a casual discussion of possibilities into something more concrete (like when the Bengali officials raised the possibility of Pakistan buying their Mig-29s and frigates, it was reported as a done deal by some sources)

The reasons why we haven't bought a high altitude SAM are simple, VERY few options and NO Money. Until the chinese rolled out their version of the S-300 in 1998 (FT-2000), the only such SAM system with a fair degree of ABM capability were the Patriot and the S-300 family - purchase of either one wasn't possible.
11-04-2002 08:13 PM
H Khan

Buying "defensive weapons" these days is all good and dandy! If this type of deal is approved Congress will pass it because these are "defensive weapons."

As I have eluded in the past the last item which the US Congress will approve are three squardons of F-16s.

Wait and see............

Some of the reliable sources are eluding to the fact is that Super-7 will have SNECMA M88-2 or M53 engine.
11-04-2002 08:36 PM
Boota

Quote:

Originally posted by H Khan
Some of the reliable sources are eluding to the fact is that Super-7 will have SNECMA M88-2 or M53 engine.

Refer to my 9 month old posts on this. S7 airframe can take the M53 fairly easily.
11-04-2002 08:49 PM
H Khan

Quote:

Originally posted by Boota Masih

Refer to my 9 month old posts on this. S7 airframe can take the M53 fairly easily.

I clearly remember what you wrote "9 months";) ago!:)
11-04-2002 11:47 PM
H Khan

Pakistan to acquire anti-ballistic missile system

Aroosa Alam

ISLAMABAD—In order to correct the strategic balance that has been seriously altered by the Indian test-firing of Akash anti-ballistic missile system, Pakistan has decided to acquire a similar system to safeguard its vital sites and interests from any intruding missiles.

Defence sources told Pakistan Observer that the President and Chief of Army Staff General Pervez Musharraf has just approved the proposal forwarded by the Strategic Plans Division to acquire unspecified number of anti-ballistic missiles.

According to the details the Strategic Division has short listed three ATBM systems from USA with the hefty price tag of over 1.5 billion US $. Pakistan is looking into Patriot, Nike and Hawk anti-ballistic missile systems which can be delivered in a short time as they are already in service and available.

Sources said that Pakistan and USA are to resume nuclear talks in two weeks time in Islamabad and the deal for these missiles can be finalized during these deliberations which will be sharply focussed on Command and Control Systems of Pakistan’s nuclear arson. Sources said that USA has agreed to supply anti-ballistic missiles in order to discourage Islamabad from further proliferation of missiles to protect its nuclear installations. The main topic of revived nuclear talks between USA and Pakistan will be the safety of Pakistan’s nuclear installations and command and control systems.

The nuclear talks between the two countries broke down after May 1998 nuclear tests by Pakistan. It was during President General Musharraf’s visit to Washington that the two sides agreed to resume nuclear dialogue.

Pakistan has been yearning to acquire an anti-ballistic missile system ever since India started negotiations with Russia to acquire air defence system with ATBM capabilities, either the S-300PMU-1 or the S-300V. The Almaz design bureau’s S-300PMU-1 is a highly mobile SAM system that has been upgraded to give it an interception capability against tactical ballistic missiles with range over 300 kilometres. But the recent test-firing of Akash has sped up Islamabad’s quest to acquire ATBM to correct the strategic balance in the region. India has developed Akash with the secret transfer of US technology to India which is applicable to missile defence, particularly the Arrow ATBM, and Phalcon airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft.

Defence sources said that USA has fully realized that India’s acquisition and development of sophisticated air defence systems with anti-missile capabilities could erode Pakistan’s confidence in both of its main nuclear delivery system, the Shaheen, Hatf and Ghouri and US supplied F-16s, to such a degree that it would no longer believe its nuclear capability provided a credible deterrence against India. Under the previous balance of power India and Pakistan seem to have established a fragile but workable form of mutual “non-weaponised” deterrence but now Pakistan is deprived of an assured strike capability which can be dangerous. US planners have noted that, if unable to match India’s defensive systems, Pakistan’s initial response would probably be to increase the number of nuclear weapons and delivery systems available at short notice in order to restore its deterrent. Since Presseler sanction have been removed from Pakistan, USA feels free to sell ATBM to Pakistan.

Washington, however, has not offered Pakistan with the advanced versions of three anti-missile systems. For Pakistani security keepers Patriot remains to be the top priority but Pakistan Observer believes that USA will not offer the latest version of this anti-missile system.

Patriot is a long range, all altitude, all weather air defence system to counter tactical ballistic missiles, crusie missiles and advanced aircraft. Patriot ( MIM-104 ) is produced by Raytheon in Massachusetts and Lockheed Martin Missiles in Florida. As well as the USA , Patriot is in service with Germany, Greece, Israel, Japan, Kuwait, the Netherlands, Saudi-Arabia and Taiwan. It has been cleared for sale to Egypt. The range of the missile is 70km and maximum altitude is greater than 24km. The minimum flight time is the time to arm the missile, which is less than 9s, and the maximum flight time is less than three and half minutes. Patriot has two advanced versions of PAC -3 and PACM but Pakistan has been offered an old version of PAC-2.

Similarly Nike is a very old system and was last upgraded in 1999. Hawk is yet a very old anti-missile system which has been upgraded recently but possesses two separate command and control systems for effective deterrence. The AN/TPS-59 radar system can detect incoming ballistic missiles, and Hawk missile system, used primarily against enemy’s aircraft, could intercept and destroy enemy missiles.

Two independent systems have to be created under a command and control interface between them
11-05-2002 08:25 AM
SyedA

Nike:

http://alpha.fdu.edu/~bender/nike.html

http://ed-thelen.org/

Hawk System:

THE HAWK III

The other currently deployed U.S. TMD system is the Improved Hawk III. This is an improved version of the Hawk antiaircraft Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM) system that has been deployed by U.S. and allied forces for over 20 years and has been successfully co-produced by the U.S. and a group of NATO-Europe allies. As Lt. Gen. O'Neill put it: "Near term TMD programmes also include a basic Marine Corps capability to defend amphibious operating areas (improvements to the TPS-59 Radar, Hawk Missile, and the development of the Air Defence Communications Platform [ADCP]). These improvements will provide the Marine Corps with an important, near-term operational capability in an area that represents a lucrative target for theatre ballistic missiles: amphibious points of debarkation.

Lt. Gen. O'Neill's point about the attractiveness of amphibious landing points as targets for TBM attacks is now chillingly underlined by Professor Murray's "question of might-have-beens.": "Except for the hit at the war's end that killed a large number of U.S. army reservists [at the Dhahran barracks] the Scuds achieved little damage and few deaths. Nevertheless, a Scud nearly hit the USS Tarawa, while that ship was tied up at the main dock at Dhahran - a dock piled high with ammunition. It does not take much imagination to visualise what an actual hit [killing and wounding hundreds of U.S. and allied personnel] might have achieved in political and psychological terms".

The Improved Hawk Ill has reportedly done well in its tests as an ATBM. In demonstration testing last year [1994], Hawks successfully shot down two Lance [U.S. TBM] missiles at White Sands. The U.S. Marine Corps, which does not operate Patriots, is planning to deploy Improved Hawk Ill in late 1996 and will rely on Hawk for defence against ballistic missiles until the Medium Extended Air Defence System (MEADS) is deployed after 2005 (MEADS is described below). Since the basic Hawk system is so widely deployed by U.S. allies, upgrades of this system to the Improved Hawk Ill may offer an effective, economical means for these allies to rapidly increase their defences against TBM in the near-term.

http://www.redstone.army.mil/history...hawk/hawk.html
11-05-2002 08:29 AM
SyedA

http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/npr/vol04/43/koblen43.pdf
11-05-2002 09:58 AM
Hasib

Pakistan does have a need for ABM. However I am cynical about acquiring Patriot system. My concern is how Pakistan will support & maintain the Patriots if USA decides to impose new embargoes after she looses her interests in Pakistan. Pakistan should not obtain the system unless it gets iron-clad guarantee of support and maintenance for the entire life cycle.

Quote:

Some of the reliable sources are eluding to the fact is that Super-7 will have SNECMA M88-2 or M53 engine.

Is this the same engine that Rafael has? French engines are more reliable in terms of fuel consumption and maintenance. It will simplify logistics if PAF does get Rafael.

Hasib.
11-05-2002 05:40 PM
Sultan

In terms of the possibility of acquiring the Patriot.......... personally I think we should demand the PAC-3. The PAC-3 is the only version that can provide the effective coverage required for strategic locations. Investing $1.5 billion in the PAC-2 would be a very, very bad move IMHO........

The Rafale is powered by two M88-2 engines from SNECMA, each providing a thrust of 75kN.
11-05-2002 07:32 PM
uazim

Quote:

Originally posted by Sultan
In terms of the possibility of acquiring the Patriot.......... personally I think we should demand the PAC-3. The PAC-3 is the only version that can provide the effective coverage required for strategic locations. Investing $1.5 billion in the PAC-2 would be a very, very bad move IMHO........

The Rafale is powered by two M88-2 engines from SNECMA, each providing a thrust of 75kN.

I really doubt that Pakistan will spend US$1.5 B on these, because it is a very big amount unless it is spread over a period of ten years or more, when was the last time Pakistan spent that much on any weapon system?
Even PAC-3 is not that capable and can be fooled and by putting these to our strategic sites we will telling the whole world where they are :rolleyes:

And use of Snecma engine in S7 is very welcome rumor and I hope it is true. How about Kunlan?

UA
11-05-2002 11:22 PM
Sultan

Quote:

I really doubt that Pakistan will spend US$1.5 B on these, because it is a very big amount unless it is spread over a period of ten years or more, when was the last time Pakistan spent that much on any weapon system?

Well $1.5 billion is the fig. being touted by the media..............

Yes it is a large sum of money but as far as the payment method is concerned it obviously will be spread over a period of time - 10-20 yrs. You'd have to be a fool to pay upfront in cash!!!

I do believe the PN spent close to the above mentioned fig. on the Agosta 90b deal.

Quote:

Even PAC-3 is not that capable and can be fooled and by putting these to our strategic sites we will telling the whole world where they are

The PAC3 maybe not be 100% effective but which ABM system is??? The PAC3 is arguably the best piece of tech. currently out there in terms of ABM systems. The PAC3 has to be integrated into an overall air defence network to form a multi layered defence against airborne threats. Its not going to intercept the threats 100% of the time but it will provide a tactical advantage and it will help to re-address the strategic imbalance.

In regards to your second point well our strategic assests do require round the clock protection from airborne threats (the one tactic to be employed capable of neutralising our strategic assests).

Even if we do deploy an ABM to protect these assests we're hardly going to stick it right next to the assest with a big neon sign telling the world of the location of our assests :rolleyes: It will be deployed in a designated area 4900 squared Kms~ in size. Thus providing the required coverage and at the same time not revealing the exact location of that assest!!
11-06-2002 05:49 AM
MohammedA

US Army shoots down artillery shell with laser
WASHINGTON (November 06 2002) : Using a high-energy laser weapon developed by TRW Inc, the US Army said it shot down an artillery shell in flight on Tuesday for the first time ever in a test over New Mexico.

The Army and TRW said in a joint announcement that the laser tracked, locked onto and fired a burst of concentrated light energy photons at the artillery projectile in flight at the service's White Sands, New Mexico, test range.

"Seconds later, at a point well short of its intended destination, the projectile was destroyed," the Army's Space and Missile Defence Command said in a news release.

The Mobile Tactical High Energy Laser (MTHEL) is being developed by TRW for the Army and the Israeli Defence Ministry and has been used in past tests to shoot down slower Katyusha Rockets similar to those fired at Israel by Palestinian resistance groups.-Reuters

Copyright 2002 Reuters (Published under arrangements with Reuters)
11-06-2002 07:09 AM
Sheikh

I thought Russian S-900 or something was the most advanced Anti-Ballistic Missle.

Cause I have heard Patriot had a horrible record during the Gulf war. Has the Patriot been modified since then or what?
11-06-2002 08:12 AM
uazim

Quote:

Originally posted by Sultan

Well $1.5 billion is the fig. being touted by the media..............

Yes it is a large sum of money but as far as the payment method is concerned it obviously will be spread over a period of time - 10-20 yrs. You'd have to be a fool to pay upfront in cash!!!

Yeap it is media reported and the deal for Agosta was some 900 mil.

I do believe the PN spent close to the above mentioned fig. on the Agosta 90b deal.

The PAC3 maybe not be 100% effective but which ABM system is??? The PAC3 is arguably the best piece of tech. currently out there in terms of ABM systems. The PAC3 has to be integrated into an overall air defence network to form a multi layered defence against airborne threats. Its not going to intercept the threats 100% of the time but it will provide a tactical advantage and it will help to re-address the strategic imbalance.

In regards to your second point well our strategic assests do require round the clock protection from airborne threats (the one tactic to be employed capable of neutralising our strategic assests).

Even if we do deploy an ABM to protect these assests we're hardly going to stick it right next to the assest with a big neon sign telling the world of the location of our assests :rolleyes: It will be deployed in a designated area 4900 squared Kms~ in size. Thus providing the required coverage and at the same time not revealing the exact location of that assest!!

4900 SqKM is only 50 by 100 km, not much when the whole idea is to hide it, yes of course we put the ABM in an area and not put our strategic assets there.

Once again if the figure is anywhere close to what it is being reported, it is one very expensive purchase and that is also from US of A, we can live and survive without it and spend that money to have second strike capability. We do need long range and high altitude SAM and more pressing need is to get new fighter aircrafts and AEW systems.

UA