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[list=1][*]Does PA employ simulators to train its tank crews, anti-tank missile crews, SP howitzers?[*]How does PA & PAF alert their MANPAD (Stingers, Mistral, RBS-70 & Anza) crews about the position & direction of flight of enemy aircrafts? Are they alerted by air observers or do they get radar data processed by computer?[/list=1]
Hasib.
I am pretty sure that PA does not use simulators for crew training for any of the armor or SP component in its inventory. I am absolutely positive that there was nothing of this sort until the late 80's and 90's. Brig. Z. A Khan had written the training procedures for Armd Corp training in the PA in the 70's. I believe these were updated to some extent. There is no mention of any simulator training in those. (However I must be the first to admit that I am not privy to all of the current info. Maybe someone else can comment on the more recent state of affairs).
As far as the MANPADS question, I am pretty sure, the end-users are alerted by the air defence radars of the PAF and PA. Keep in mind that the Air defence command is pretty closely tied to the PAF's radar coverage. So the threat would be processed somewhat digitally rather than having an observer peek over the ADGE. I am sure others can further elaborate on it but that is what I know.
Cheers!
Any one know the details here?
Stingers, Mistral, Anza are basically used like bullets. You see enemy aircraft, you shoot enemy aircraft (if you see it fast enough, that is) they are not specifically tied into any Air Defence Net for target info.Quote:
Originally posted by Hasib
[list=1]
[*]How does PA & PAF alert their MANPAD (Stingers, Mistral, RBS-70 & Anza) crews about the position & direction of flight of enemy aircrafts? Are they alerted by air observers or do they get radar data processed by computer?[/list=1]
Hasib.
The RBS70 on the other hand is slaved to the Giraffe Radar, to which they are directly linked and get their targetting data, IFF and firing information.
The Simulators for Both T-84 and T-85 are placed in School of Armor and Mechinized Warfare, Nowshera, NWFP.
Cheers,
Every one thank you for the information.
How about if weather is bad or there is poor visibility or night time? What happens if they do not see the enemy aircraft? If they cannot see the aircraft than effectiveness of Manpads is reduced. That means over assets are in the mercy of enemy aircrafts.Quote:
Stingers, Mistral, Anza are basically used like bullets. You see enemy aircraft, you shoot enemy aircraft (if you see it fast enough, that is) they are not specifically tied into any Air Defence Net for target info.
The RBS70 on the other hand is slaved to the Giraffe Radar, to which they are directly linked and get their targetting data, IFF and firing information.
Hasib.
All the MANPADS in Pakistani inventory have devices for night-time use.Quote:
How about if weather is bad or there is poor visibility or night time?
KRL has also made a simulator for Baktar Shikan which was on display at IDEAS 2002.Quote:
Does PA employ simulators to train its tank crews, anti-tank missile crews, SP howitzers?
Hi, this is my first post on this excellent forum, ive been a member for two months and i regularly read the threads on this forum. I've noticed that the Oct news on the Pakdef website hasnt been posted.
Plus i am a member at the Pakistani defence forum as well and i wanted to ask if it is OK if i can post some pics of the ideas2002 expo. You guys have excellent pics of the expo and with ur permission i would like to post them there.
Thanks
Got this inventory from alphalink.com....... A bit dated but provides us with a rough idea of the numbers in PAF. Just wanted to know what some of the aviaition experts thought of the inventory numbers and if corrections can be made??
(Excluding the F6s/ Atlantics and Orions (operated by PN)).
Although, apart from the Mirage Rose upgrades (40 units??) and the 40 newly inducted F7MGs (?) the remaining aircraft to be replaced by the S7 is 262 aircrafts - according to the figs provided below (which excludes the already retd. F6 total). Now if we're going to replace 262 aircrafts with 150 S7 - the PAF will be short of 5/6 squadrons. Unless of course this deficit will be rectified with more F16 MLUs or a 4th/5th gen. aircraft. Any comments???
TYPE NUMBER ROLE
F-16 A/B 26/11 Int/attack
F-7 M/P/MG 20/75 Int
Nanghang A-5 60 Attack
Shenyang F-6/FT-6 80/15 Int/FGA/trng
Mirage IIIEP/B 15/6 Int
Mirage III RP/DP 12/3 Recon/trng
Mirage IIIO/OD 45 Int
Mirage 5 PA/DPA 28/2 FGA/trng
Mirage 5 PA-2/DPA-2 30/2 FGA/trng
Mirage 5 EF/DF 10/34 FGA
Shenyang FT-5 30 Trng
Shenyang FT-2 6 Trng
T-33A/RT-33A 10 Trng
T-37B 44 Trng
MFI-17B Mushak 38 Trng
K-8 Karkoram 8 Trng
P-3C 2 MR/ASW
Atlantic 1 3 MR/ASW
Boeing 707-320 2 Trans/VIP
C-130 B/E/L-100-20 3/7/1 Trans
F-27 200 2 VIP
Falcon 20E/EW 1/2 VIP/EW
Baron/Travel Air 1/1 Liaison
Commander 680 1 Liaison
Twin Bonanza 1 Liaison
PA-34 Seneca II 2 Liaison/VIP
Cessna 172N 4 Liaison
Alouette III 12/6 Liaison/SAR
SA 315B Lama 12 Liaison/SAR
Actually as technology progresses, number of units required to maintain same vigilence is less. Thus 150 FC-1, if that FC-1 is as good as stated, then these numbers will off set 260 F-7s and Mirage III/V.
Reason PAF have large # of F-7s is to make sure a force of 60-70% is available at any given time. F-16 has availability lvl of 90%, while F-20 had 95%. F-16s in USAF replaced F-4s, F-7s, F-101, F-102, F-105, Thus 4k or so F-16s replaced 6-7k others. Now as F-22 comes into service it will replace thousands of F-15 with much fewer number.
Also 150 is the intial number ordered. It doesnt say what the total number PAF will receive once production stops. If wouldnt be surprised if much modified/upgraded version of FC-1 follows up in 3-5 years, same as with F-16 A/B followed up with C/D.
T T F N
actually a company in Karachi is developing simulators for PN, PA, and PAF. My ex-roommate works over there; he's currently making algorithms with PN men.....Quote:
Originally posted by syed saad
I am pretty sure that PA does not use simulators for crew
Folks,
Is Pakistan in the process of evaluating and eventually replacing the existing 7.62 calibre to 5.56 standards in the near future?
Does anyone know, in lieu of the above, if a replacement for the HK G-3 is in the works? Seems like lately, some numbers of Steyr Aug (5.56mm) have been introduced, however what is the long term plan in regards to this.
Does anyone have any insight on this, and lastly is there some project on hand at POF?
Thanks
Saad
An interesting insight on the Indian experience with INSAS. I wonder if Pakistan would go through the same ordeal just for the sake of calling its own 5.56 calibre rifle "indiginous".
It seems pretty interesting that Pakistan has inducted (in some numbers unknown to me) Steyr AUG, which Indian Army also short-listed.
I think, shortage of durable plastic in Pakistan may make ToT and serial production of AUG unlikely (as was the case with the US AR-15 back in the 60's). Otherwise PA would have moved onto 5.56mm calibre 40 years ago.
- Saad
INSAS 5.56 MM RIFLE –– For Fighting and Not Fun!
An IDC Analysis
New Delhi, 01 October 2002
We present below Mohan Guruswamy’s well-researched and analytical piece on the INSAS 5.56 mm rifle. As usual the DRDO has attempted to ‘reinvent the wheel’
instead of going in for licensed production of tried and proven automatic weapons which may have been manufactured at much cheaper costs. The so-called INSAS rifle (‘standing for a very grandiloquent Indian National Small Arms System’), is a little heavier than planned and we hear it jams at times and is still no match for the AK 47 and it costs double. We hope this is not true and the MOD statement that the rifle is well received by the Indian Army is valid and so export orders can also be sought easily. In Pakistan because of the Gun culture AK 47s are available at Rs 6000 in plenty.
For Fighting and Not Fun!
By Mohan Guruswamy
Uziel ‘Uzi’ Gal died last week at the age of 78 of cancer. It merited a small paragraph at best in several international newspapers and magazines, which is quite disproportionate to the impact his invention had on our times. For along with Mikhail Kalashnikov, Uzi Gal will be a name associated with the greatest mayhem since the end of the Second World War, a war in which almost 20 million died. In years after that almost a hundred million have died to bullets sprayed from Kalashnikov and Uzi automatic weapons. No other weapons have killed so many in so short a time in the history of man. It is much more than what AIDS or a major disease like Cholera or Typhoid has killed during the years since when the 7.62mm Kalashnikov assault rifle and the 9mm Uzi sub-machine gun made their debuts.
The development of the light automatic rifle was the consequence to a well-known post WWII study of the pattern of usage of infantry weapons by US infantrymen in combat by Brig.Gen. SLA Marshall, the prominent American military analyst. Marshall’s study revealed that most infantrymen actually used their weapons very little, preferring to take cover for most of the time and firing occasionally. The study also revealed that the infantrymen most likely to fire their weapons were those closest to a soldier firing a Browning automatic rifle. This was because when the BAR man fired, he was able to literally hose down a wide arc in front of him. When he did this the opposing infantry lay low and infantrymen by his side were able to rise from behind their chosen cover and fire their weapons. Quite clearly this itself suggested a need for greater deployment of automatic weapons, if you had to get more fighting out of soldiers.
The Americans were first off the mark with their M-14 7.62mm automatic rifle and most others soon followed. But we in India missed this switch completely. While we were expending our defence rupees on Hunter, Mystery and Ouragon jet fighters and even on an aircraft carrier, the Chinese went in for better equipment and gear for its men on the ground. Thus when the 1962 war was upon us the poor foot soldier with .303 Lee Enfield single shot rifles and in flimsy clothing was left to deal with the Chinese juggernaut.
One would have thought that the Indian Army and our defence planners would have derived lessons from this. But it seems that little has been learnt and much forgotten, for even now we have not fully equipped our forces with the latest generation of automatic rifles. Way back in 1980 the Indian Army stipulated its qualitative requirements for a new basic combat rifle. This called for a 5.56 mm automatic rifle. It took the DRDO and the Indian Ordnance Factory at Ishapore over a decade and a half to commence any serious production. Even though the INSAS 5.56 mm rifle has been around for a few years now, but there doesn’t seem enough of them for most of our troops still carry the AK-47 or the old Ishapore 7.62 mm semi-automatic rifle. Only about 200,000 units have been produced which is very little considering that the Army alone has a million men to arm.
Given the pattern of recent defence spends it seems our strategists once again seem to have reverted to the old habit of spending all on the big and extravagant and least likely to be used, than on arms for the foot soldier who in the ultimate analysis, even today, still wins or loses battles for his country. Thus while debates have raged and money obviously made on purchases of SU-30 and more Mirage 2000 jets, 155mm self-propelled guns, nuclear submarines, and another aircraft carrier, little thought has been given to the foot soldier and his weapon. This reminds me of the lines of a ditty, in another context, from the Leon Uris war novel “Battle Cry” which went: “This is my rifle, this is my gun, this is for fighting, this is for fun!” The jets and big howitzers certainly look very sexy trundling down Rajpath on January 26 and are great fun to watch, but don’t forget it is the infantryman with rifle in hand that does most of the fighting.
The reader may be wondering why a smaller caliber weapon is better when it seems that for most things in life, bigger is better? This change in thinking, as far as rifles were concerned, was as a result of three observations. First was due to the fact that the larger 7.62 mm round needed a bigger explosive charge to propel it at the desired 900 meters per second. The recoil as a result of this explosive charge in the automatic fire mode made the weapon virtually uncontrollable. Not only was the soldier unable to aim properly, but also quite often the recoil caused serious injuries.
The second observation was that the infantryman did not need a marksman’s weapon firing accurately up to 800 meters. Statistical analysis by the US Army of rifle engagements in WW II, Korea and Vietnam revealed that 90 per cent of them were at ranges less than 300 meters and 70 per cent at 200 meters and less. Therefore, the emphasis on long-range accuracy of 300-800 meters was found somewhat redundant. Since most engagements were at close quarters it also suggested a weapon that could be fired from either shoulder or hip.
The third observation related to wound ballistics. Studies commissioned by the US Army revealed that a smaller round caused more damaging wounds. A bullet is stabilized to fly straight in air, but when it enters another medium, like water, its flight characteristics undergo changes. Instead of a stable flight the round develops a tendency to tumble. The human body is 80% water held up by bone and fiber and so what happens to the bullet in water happens in the body. While a heavier round because of its greater momentum often carries through the new medium leaving a clean exit, the smaller round tends to tumble more easily and thereby doing more damage to the body. The paradoxical consequence of this is that an enemy combatant hit by a smaller bullet risks suffering greater bodily harm and therefore to a higher probability of being incapacitated.
What followed from the increasing dependence on automatic weapons was that greater quantities of ammunition were now needed. The propensity to consume ammunition reached the astounding rate of 50,000 rounds per kill in the Vietnam War. This obviously means that the soldier now needs to carry greater quantities of ammunition. The smaller the caliber, the greater the number of bullets the soldier can carry into the battlefield. All these clearly pointed towards a lighter weapon firing a smaller round to increase lethality, reduced recoil and with new ergonomics. The result of this was changes in infantry combat philosophy and in conformity with it the introduction of a light small caliber weapon in most armies keen to win their wars.
Ever since the US army introduced the Eugene Stoner designed M-16, a 5.56 mm caliber automatic rifle in the latter stages of the Vietnam War, the 5.56 weapon has been the NATO standard. The older Russian AK-47 assault rifle while a 7.62 mm caliber weapon fires a lighter round at a lower muzzle velocity of 710 meters per second. The consequent drawback is its limited range as over at 200 meters the AK 47 round begins to drop. Since the recoil is minimal it makes it an extremely manageable weapon with the wound ballistic characteristics and ergonomic advantages of the 5.56 mm rifle.
In India a decision was taken way back in 1980 to switch to the 5.56 mm assault rifle and steel core ammunition. It took the Army two years after that to ask for weapons for trials from all over the world. The Army tried out these weapons for three years. They then short-listed the Austrian Steyr AUG and the German Heckler and Koch G-41. Of these the Steyr AUG was considered the best suited as its modular design enables it to be converted from a carbine to an assault rifle to a light machine gun by merely inter-changing barrels. It has an effective range of 600 meters and fires 850 rounds per minute. It incorporates the innovative Bullpup design, which makes it the shortest weapon with the longest barrel, besides giving it the best ergonomics because it can be fired from either shoulder. It has a larger 42 round magazine and a telescopic sight fitted into the carrying bracket.
Both manufacturers offered us licensed production. However, we decided to develop an automatic rifle of our own, the INSAS 5.56, with INSAS standing for a very grandiloquent Indian National Small Arms System. The INSAS has not only been very late in coming and that too not in enough numbers, but is reported to have serious performance drawbacks, particularly in cold conditions. The Indian Army’s Performance Quality Requirements have typically been unrealistic and have hindered the development of an effective basic combat rifle. Among the PQR’s was a requirement that it should also be capable of being swung by its barrel like a club when ammunition runs out!
Consequently we have a weapon that looks more like the Ishapore ordnance factory’s 7.62 mm SLR rather than a modern infantryman’s combat rifle. In fact the official web site describes it as “gas operated selective fire weapon having an interesting blend of features culled from a variety of sources.” And it is! The receiver and pistol grip are that of the Russian Kalashnikov; the butt, gas regulator and flash hider from the Belgian FN FAL; fore-end from the US Armalite AR-15; and cocking handle from the German Heckler and Koch! Looks good on parade with a bayonet stuck on top. But is it more for fun than for fighting?
I watched a Pak-Armed-Forces-related programme on PTV in Dubai (I say that because I think PTV broadcasts different international versions to different geographical regions?) last week. It was presented by a lady, Ayesha Malik (BTW, this lady is one of the most photogenic and “natural” TV presenters in the world; She leaves the Fox and CNN lasses trailing in the dust !!!!).
The porgramme had about 4 reports from different parts of the country, including one from the Jelham Military College celebrating its 78th birthday this year.
There was a piece on passing-out ceremony at some PAF academy. The graduating batch included 6 female officers in their early 20s. One by one the cadets came and had their graduation-strip appended on their chest by some General. What caught my attention was that this chap did the same to the female officers too: pressing the strip on the left side of their chest and gently tapping it.
Something appears to have gone wrong here. I am not sure about protocol in other countries but I can imagine the type of headline that Brit tabloids would run with a picture of some old British General tapping the left breast of a female officer!!
Irrelevant of the Western tradition, surly there is something odd about a Pak male officer toughing a Muslim female officer in such a way?
Would it not be better if, in the case of female officer, any medal or decoration etc was either given to her by another female, or appended to her shoulder or lapel, or indeed just given to her in her hand?
Any learned members wish to comment?
How come soo many Pattons and Chaffe tanks where captured by the Indians?
Was haji Pirr pass lost?
How was Kargil lost? and if so why wasnt it given back when the cease fire toke place?
Why wasnt Pakistan prepared for the Indian attack on 6 September 1965?
Was that the second day of Eid? If so that would explain the Surprise. I read an article by a Submariner talking about war on the second day of Eid. Let see if I can dig is up
I was thinking of this article
****************************
We Sank the Khukri
By
Rear Admiral R Kadri, SJ (Retd)
November 20, 1971 was a holiday and so was 21 November – two whole days “free” during the difficult days of turmoil in East Pakistan. It was Eid-al-Azha, time for sacrificial offering of animals, of family get-togethers and of feasting and sharing of joys. However, 1971 was not to be a year for such celebrations for us. The Indians had decided that 1971 was their year of the “opportunity of the century” and they were not about to miss the opportunity.
It was already apparent to any thinking person keeping track of the unfolding events that with each passing day, he day of decision was drawing nearer. The Indians had to intervene in East Pakistan during that winter or miss the “opportunity of the century” forever.
PN Submarine Ghazi had been dispatched only a few days earlier to the Bay of Bengal for operations in that distant area, should the need arise. The mission assigned was difficult and dangerous but the submarine had sailed out in a blaze of glory with the battle cries of Allah-Ho-Akbar little knowing that this was to be its last mission.
I was at that time the Electrical Officer of PN submarine Hangor and therefore before going home for two days Eid holidays had made sure, as is the practice, that everything was ready in case the submarine was required to proceed to sea at short notice. Except for attending the congregational Eid prayers, I had decided to stay at home. There was no visiting relatives or friends, only a quiet day at home, knowing that the Indians always preferred days or events of National or religious importance to launch their attacks.
Eid day passed off quietly, but on the evening of second day of Eid my front gate bell rang. Thinking it might be a visitor, I went to open the front gate, but on seeing a naval police patrolman standing there, realization at once dawned that the time of waiting and uncertainty was over and that time had finally come for the submarine Hangor to put to sea.
******************************************
Sorry I was wrong on the Date and the War.
oh ok...
PA uses simulator to train Green Arrow ATGM operators.
and about that ISPR programme on PTV world ....
well .... if u look carefully ... the backgorund has an image of SU-27 pictured on it !! (SU-27 is the basic version of SU-30 which india has!!)
i wrote an email to ISPR objecting this but no one replied nor removed that image ............ looks like same pakistani "no one cares" attitude at ISPR as well ........:mad:
Not completely sure but will give a try(someone correct me if i am wrong)Quote:
Originally posted by hamza durrani
How come soo many Pattons and Chaffe tanks where captured by the Indians?
Was haji Pirr pass lost?
How was Kargil lost? and if so why wasnt it given back when the cease fire toke place?
Why wasnt Pakistan prepared for the Indian attack on 6 September 1965?
1)Most were captured after the ambush at Assal Uttar(True North)
2)Yes, after ferocious fighting.(The IA paracommandos IIRC called it hell on earth)The loss may have been one of the triggers for "Grand Slam".
3)Lost because because of IA numerical superiority.Was returned in 1965 IIRC.Lost again in 1971 but not returned.
4)Miscalculation that the war will be limited to Kashmir perhaps.
Corrections welcome...
Thanx, i was also wondering that Did India capture more area or was it Pakistan?
Looking for neutral sources Hamza, but there seem to be few around.My answer would be pakistan gained more territory but not by a large margin.
Anybody knows where to get General Harbakash(sp?) Singh's book on 1965 war?Understand that it is pretty honest about both sides gains and losses(He says at one stage nearly half of the Indian punjab was in danger of being overrun IIRC).
1). Are all the Cessna O-1 Brid Dogs (L-19) serving with Pakistan Army Aviation been retired?
2). Are there any Mil Mi-8s still serving with the Pakistan Army Aviation? The first 12 Mil Mi-8s were acquired during 1969 but latter were grounded due to spare shortages. We started operating them again in the late 80's after China started providing spares.
The Mi-8 are retired, there was info in the AFM when they wrote about the Qasim Army Aviation base,
go to: http://www.depo.org.pk/surplus.htm#Miscellaneous
and check out Miscellaneous Equipment, and notice "Helicopter M1-8" wrote a 1 instead of i, anyway stats its retired.
You can buy General Singh's book from Amazon. Gen Singh was correct because at one point the Army Commander ordered Singh to pull his forces eastwards across river Beas because he thought that the Pakistani Army was going to stage a breakthrough.Quote:
Originally posted by Saladin
Anybody knows where to get General Harbakash(sp?) Singh's book on 1965 war?Understand that it is pretty honest about both sides gains and losses(He says at one stage nearly half of the Indian punjab was in danger of being overrun IIRC).
Gen Singh choose to "dis-obey" his Army Commander and kept his nerve and his forces on the west bank of the beas. Just as well really because if he had fallen back a huge chunk of land would have fallen into Pakistani hands.
You can get further details at www.orbat.com