Our Own Last Military Organisation

[Mohammad Ilyas]

Two things are not revived in our country after the end of the British colonial suzarainty. One is the military layout and organisatoin system of our own that did die with the martyrdom of Sultan fateh Ali Shah Tipu. The last reasonable force possessing the eastern military system was that of Sultan Tipu . The ranks, their names and distribution was by then totally brought to an end with the introduction of British military system.
The other is the military band or drums that were also changed to the British Orchestra of trumpets and drums with the Scottish pipe and Brass band been brought up. These military music are not of inferior nature but are not of owr own. There used to be 'dammama' and 'surnai' more melodious and more irritating right from the beginning of Muslim era. There used to be pipes with one filling the air to a leather channel and that being swollen used to pass it to one or two big pipes putting out the sound from over the shoulders having much more sound than that of the group of Scottish pipe.

[IbnAbdullah]

Salaam

Is it even possible to revive the military structure that you have mentioned? Or more importantly, would be practical and worth the effort? I'm not saying it is or is not, rather want your reasons for doing so. What would we gain by doing so?

btw do you have some details on the ranks etc of the then military structure?

[Mohammad Ilyas]

Yes Sir I am putting before you some of the particulars that I keep in mind and the image of the pipe is in the book ' The story of a minor siege' of the British . The military terms of the last Muslim era were all alike all over the Muslim world and upto some extent are still in use in Turkey while only in some form were in Afghanistan before the Russian invasion. Some of the terms are as under;
No--English Term--------------Our Own------------------ Language
01---Light raiding party------Ur'an dasta---------------Urdu/Hindi
02---Scouts------------------------Qarauli dasta------------Turkish/Urdu
03---Vanguard-------------------Haraval--------------------Persian
04---Commando-----------------Khasa-----------------------Arabic
05---Military Police-------------Inzibat---------------------- //
06---Infantry----------------------Piyada--------------------Persian
07---Cavalry----------------------Savar------------------------- //
08---Artillary---------------------Topkhana------------------ //
09---Mortars----------------------Aawan---------------------- //
10--- Civil armed.F/militia ---Charik--------------------Turkish
11---patroling/patrol party---Gazma----------------------//
12---Ambush-----------------------G'hhaat---------------------Urdu
13---Sudden raids----------------C'hhaapa-------------------//
14---Guerillas----------------------C'hhaapamar-------------//
15---Vehicles(MT)section------Araba------------------------Persian
16---Tank/tank section---------Dabbaba--------------------Arabic
17---Armour------------------------Baktar-----------------------Persian
Ranks
01---Soldier-----------------------Piyada----------------------Persian
02---Lance Naik-----------------Sipahi-----------------------//
03---Naik/corporal------------Onbashi--------------------Turkish
04---Sargeant---------------------Chavush/havildar----Arabic
05---Captain----------------------Yuzbashi------------------Turkish
06---Colonal-----------------------Mingbashi----------------//
07---Brigadier---------------------Tughamir-----------------//
08---general------------------------Salaar-----------------------Persian
09---General ----------------------Sipah Salaar--------------//
10---Post Commander---------Qaladaar-------------------//
11---Commandant---------------Kumadan-----------------Turkish
12---Artillary Commander----Mir Atish------------------//
There was no rank of Subedar or Junior commissioned officers as this was adopted by British to have a control on the local troops more firmly.
The division of military in group order;
No--Formation------------------Number of troops---Names
01---section----------------------10-------------------------Qita
02---platoon---------------------50(if needed)----------Tabur
03---company-------------------100------------------------groh
04---battalion-------------------1000----------------------hazari
05---brigade---------------------5000----------------------panjhazari
06---division--------------------10,000--------------------das hazari
07---corps------------------------As desired.-------------foj/dal/Urdu
There was another system in Muslim armies that there were soldiers well known for their special skills and able in personal behaviour used to have the pay and privilege of even a higher commander and sometimes upto a general but served as an ordinary soldier.

[Zain Abbass]

My question is why we try to erase the occupation period of the British. It is part of our history no matter how hard we try to erase it. I don’t really see the need to go back to a culture that just doesn’t exist anymore and change military tradition in Pakistan. It is time to move on and try to perserve what is left of OUR culture.

This is a very unpractical change...

[Mohammad Ilyas]

Did cling to the pale 'farangeez' and now to the red. Carry on with that.

[AjmalMahmood]

I would rather appreciate an Army who invent such a good new strategies and tactics to cope with ever changing national defense requirements that every army in world would use their terminologies rather than cut/paste terminology of ranks with middle ages name of ranks.
My Islam is not defined by hate for 'Farangeez'.

[IbnAbdullah]

Salaam

Thank you Mohammad Ilyas Sahib for the information. I like the idea as well, however; I think it shouldn't be just about replacing English names with persian/turkish/arabic ones. A whole new tradition and culture would need to be adopted to have substantial affect.

However, maybe names change may also have an effect on how things are precieved and may help in the creation of a seperate identity... Nothing substantial as such, but with a moral effect nonetheless.

Again thanks for the detailed reply, it was much appriciated.

[IbnAbdullah]

Salaam

I would rather appreciate an Army who invent such a good new strategies and tactics to cope with ever changing national defense requirements that every army in world would use their terminologies rather than cut/paste terminology of ranks with middle ages name of ranks.
My Islam is not defined by hate for 'Farangeez'.

You have made a good point, that at the end of the day a gun is worth nothing, even if it is made of gold and diamonds, if it wouldn’t shoot well.

However, sometimes names can change the way people perceive a certain thing, eventually. For instance, even though the difference between King & Khalifa isn’t much, in terms of roles, but the name can have a lot of significance.

It’s the difference between ‘collateral damage’ and unintended civilian deaths. Even though both are virtually the same, its what it is called that makes a big difference, psychologically. Or the difference between calling someone a terrorist and a freedom-fighter. I’m not saying that this is equal to that or isn’t, however; what I’m saying is that sometimes names can make a difference… It is like much of our family law, inheritance law etc is from Islam, but many people don’t think we have an ‘Islamic Legal system’ if we changed the title from Judges to Qadis etc then it would have a sufficient difference on how people view it.

Pakistan isn’t much different from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, but it makes a lot of difference for a lot of people.

Hope that made some sense.

[AjmalMahmood]

Salaam
It is like much of our family law, inheritance law etc is from Islam, but many people don’t think we have an ‘Islamic Legal system’ if we changed the title from Judges to Qadis etc then it would have a sufficient difference on how people view it.

Pakistan isn’t much different from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, but it makes a lot of difference for a lot of people.

Hope that made some sense.

I really don't agree with that. Our family laws and inheritance laws are not Islam, but rather work of some exceptionally learned Muslims who found Guiding principles in Quran and Ahadiths and worked hard to create Version 1 of Islamic jurisprudence based on needs of their day.
I disagree with any one who thinks this version 1 is final and we don’t need any further research, hard work, innovation in this field to come up with version 3, 4 and so forth.

The same is true with British vs. middle ages Muslim army names nomenclature. Muslims armies of past formalized Army command and structure and came up with nomenclature for it, British empire improved it with new tactics , strategies and weapons and now Pakistan Army, if they want their name in history have to bring new innovations.

Simply mixing everything with religion will not lead our nation nowhere and can be disaster for Army. I personally want my Islam stay away from these things as a Pakistani national I am much less successful in these worldly affairs thanks to our stuck up society and don’t want same thing for my ‘Aakira’

[Mohammad Ilyas]

Brothers we see that if a case is put up before a judge the system is such bound to its complications that the judge just says to give it some date and the clerk just writes on a lavishly piece of paper a date making the parties bound to arrive on the said time. Many minor and homely matter cases get continued life long and for the next generation also. Not a matter is considered of the miseries of the parties. A retired judge from a town near to me has said a historical saying that he has not judged a single quarrel in the whole of his service of at least 25 years.
What we lack is the sincerety and loyalty. You are right to say that with changing names nothing happens but you may admit looking at the military history that there have been armies being several times shorter defeating great opponents. What has been their pecularity is just the truth to their cause. The thing that is the biggest weakness is corruption. The same theme prevails that one says with pride how much money or privileges has he won from the government (Sarkar) just as has been before. One thinks of it because he sees his elders and seniors enjoying western manners remaining fully cautious of their selfish and classic needs. That makes the junior try his best to achieve by every possible means some part of all that.
The way of the government machinery was such organised that the title of the governors of provinces 'Subedars' were given to the juniors officers and mess bearers were made to wear the turbans like the Khans, Sardars, Rajas or T'hakurs of the area. All that must not prevail. That prevails as the enthroned are keen only to make the full benifit of their period of time of 5 years and consider it their full credit to have earned most favour to their personal lot.

[AjmalMahmood]

Brothers we see that if a case is put up before a judge the system is such bound to its complications that the judge just says to give it some date and the clerk just writes on a lavishly piece of paper a date making the parties bound to arrive on the said time. Many minor and homely matter cases get continued life long and for the next generation also. Not a matter is considered of the miseries of the parties. A retired judge from a town near to me has said a historical saying that he has not judged a single quarrel in the whole of his service of at least 25 years.
What we lack is the sincerety and loyalty. You are right to say that with changing names nothing happens but you may admit looking at the military history that there have been armies being several times shorter defeating great opponents. What has been their pecularity is just the truth to their cause. The thing that is the biggest weakness is corruption. The same theme prevails that one says with pride how much money or privileges has he won from the government (Sarkar) just as has been before. One thinks of it because he sees his elders and seniors enjoying western manners remaining fully cautious of their selfish and classic needs. That makes the junior try his best to achieve by every possible means some part of all that.
The way of the government machinery was such organised that the title of the governors of provinces 'Subedars' were given to the juniors officers and mess bearers were made to wear the turbans like the Khans, Sardars, Rajas or T'hakurs of the area. All that must not prevail. That prevails as the enthroned are keen only to make the full benifit of their period of time of 5 years and consider it their full credit to have earned most favour to their personal lot.

This is all due to so much hypocrisy in our society. It has absolutely nothing to do with British colonial era things. British commoners had to face same kind of discriminations from colonial era aristocrats and they got past it but hypocrisy of our society particularly favors these colonial era traits and that is why we see its manifestations in our society.

Majority of us believe our religion is some thing which should be imposed on society rather than on ourself personally. I have seen countless people in Pakistan who pray 5 times but steal taxes, state resources, take bribes, give bribes, ask for and provide unjust favors all on expense of all tax payers . Hardly there is any one who breaks laws and even slightest of fear of God crosses his mind as he might have done injustice to whole society.

Every one has excuses and says first every else have to stop hypocrisy before I do. .

The system of government might be bad but this can only be ascertained if people who are trying to run this system are good. Right now it is people who have problem with, once people problem is fixed than can we move on to fix system issues. We are far far away from being good human beings but never loose any chance to propagate that being leader of this world is our right.
Muslims of Pakistan don't consider themselves as 'Ibaad-ur-Rehman' but rather subcontractor of Almighty

[Mohammad Ilyas]

All that is not to criticise British. The British were very keen for their own. They used to break promises and did not keep their words while usurping lands and properties. The buildings they made, the roofs, cloves and well built bathrooms here are still in use and best in form for being upto a century in use. They were so true to their cause and country that they made their best to appoint on the possession of higher authority and biggest property the most meekly to them and the most cunning and rude to the community.
They did not left behind all their habits and good qualities like exploring, reading and love of development in the field of Science, art and technology. We fully consider the position of the historians and artists other than the known scientists. Even for reading the Islamic history we read British historians as our own historians have in some way or other induced even unconsciously some of own feelings in.