JF-17 related News & Views: Mar - Apr 2007 [Archive]

FaisalK

03-06-2007, 08:08 PM

I think there is no end to Pakistan's quest to make the JF-17 a more potent platform. There are some reports that Pakistan is looking at the RBE2 radar and ways to reduce its RCS.

Does any one have more info on this development
Wait a second...isn't the RBE2 the Rafale's present radar?

The RBE2 is a PESA radar, it is able to track 40 targets and engage 8 of them! It is also capable of air-to-ground missions. An AESA version - RBE-2-AA - is also under development and will enter service a round 2012, but I doubt PAF would go that far. Man, the stuff I've been hearing...using the Gripen's ex-HMD - the Guardian - and now Rafale's ex-radar, RBE-2 on JF-17! The RBE-2-AA, Topsight-E and SPECTRA on PAF J-10 would make my day.
==============================

RBE2 radar

RBE2 is the first multi-function electronic scan radar in production for a combat aircraft. Using this technique, the RBE2 radar offers unique capabilities, unattainable by existing radars in air-to-air and air-to-surface functions. Especially in interception and combat, the two axes electronic scanning permits simultaneous designation of multiple targets to different air-to-air missiles, while the radar continues the search in directions totally independent of the tracked targets. At very low altitude, the RBE2 radar computes a wide area 3D map in order to combine simultaneously automatic terrain following with terrain avoidance. The RBE2 radar also uses high resolution air-to-ground mapping.

The architecture of RBE2 is fully adapted to integrate the active antenna AESA, which is now in development, in order to provide new capabilities and increase its performance, while reducing the maintenance cost by increasing its reliability. The RBE2 thus demonstrates a unique capitalisation on previous functional developments.The RBE2 radar, when compared to the previous generations of radars, is a real breakthrough, and is well ahead of its competitors which continue to use mechanical scanning antennas.

http://www.thalesgroup.com/aerospace/newsroom/focus/1_8315_606_11125.html

Hafeez

03-06-2007, 10:59 PM

IN's naval Mig-29s will be using topsight HMD from a report. I hope the HMD PAF goes for is the top of the line stuff.

I don't think PAF will go for PESA or for that matter rafale radar. PESA is not the future. It has to be AESA. I am sure our chinese firends are upto something in this regard. I was really hoping Italians will develop an AESA for JF-17 but now SELEX and Finmeccanica are equipping Mig-35 and have already invested in India for ECM/ESM stuff.

Best way to go is work with chinese and european companies for in house development.

Adnan Shaukat

03-06-2007, 11:06 PM

I think there is no end to Pakistan's quest to make the JF-17 a more potent platform. There are some reports that Pakistan is looking at the RBE2 radar and ways to reduce its RCS.

Does any one have more info on this development

Pshamim, from where are you hearing this? I haven't been able to find an article, on this latest development if it is occuring.

pshamim

03-06-2007, 11:21 PM

Pshamim, from where are you hearing this? I haven't been able to find an article, on this latest development if it is occuring.

You will not find it fron traditional sources. I hear I report.

Behjat

03-07-2007, 12:56 AM

pshamim

03-07-2007, 01:15 AM

Salaam,

Adnan, Mr. Shamim is an extremely experienced, senior Pakdef member. He himself is a resource. Many of his posts are provocations for us to explore. I'm quite sure he already knows a thing or two about what he's just posted. It will appear in due time.

Thank you Doctor Behjat for your kind words. I heard about this development few months ago but chose not to report it until last month when a Chinese publication reported it. Will provide the translated news in due course.

What I do ask that members give their opinion if RBE2 is a good option or an overkill?

FaisalK

03-07-2007, 06:58 AM

Thank you Doctor Behjat for your kind words. I heard about this development few months ago but chose not to report it until last month when a Chinese publication reported it. Will provide the translated news in due course.

What I do ask that members give their opinion if RBE2 is a good option or an overkill?
Well RBE2 is a very good radar but it is at a dead end and probably very expensive. Personally I would go for a less capable but cheaper AESA radar for JF-17. I assume RBE2 is simply one of the listed options at this point and the final radar would probably be chosen by PAF when they have a clear idea of where the IAF is going. Listing the RBE2 and seeking to reduce the Thunder's RCS suggests that the PAF is seriously anticipating the IN MiG-29K and MRCA.

By going for the Rafale's radar, it would seem to me that the JF-17's avionics and ECM/EW suites as well as HMS system would be up-scaled as well - overall increasing the unit cost. Either they plan to equip certain units - to maintain a 1:2 ratio of "up-scaled" JF-17 vs. MiG-35 or they plan procure a pretty large number of JF-17s and have all of them equipped. If RBE2 is an offical option, then it push Chinese and European firms to offer high performance AESA/PESA radars at a cheaper price.

M Abdullah

03-07-2007, 08:27 AM

overall increasing the unit cost. Either they plan to equip certain units - to maintain a 1:2 ratio of "up-scaled" JF-17 vs. MiG-35 or they plan procure a pretty large number of JF-17s and have all of them equipped.
According to the recent interview of the ACM that I've posted in this very thread, it seems likely that they're thinking about maintaining two different blocks of JF-17s. One med-tech (probably Chinese avionics+missiles etc) and the other up-scaled (Western avionics+armaments etc).

AjmalMahmood

03-07-2007, 10:46 AM

Adnan Shaukat

03-07-2007, 08:07 PM

Salaam,

Adnan, Mr. Shamim is an extremely experienced, senior Pakdef member. He himself is a resource. Many of his posts are provocations for us to explore. I'm quite sure he already knows a thing or two about what he's just posted. It will appear in due time.

I understand that I know he was involved with PAF in the F-16 and he himself is a Ex-PAF pilot, I meant no disrespect, just wanted to know cause I was anxiously looking for articles online. I trust Mr. Shamim 100%, if I said anything in a bad way forgive me.

Back to topic::

I believe the radar is good but as some said it's at a dead-end (PESA), we should be focused on the AA version that will come out in 2012, if they give it to us if we buy their current radar. The only problem I see with this radar is its range which I believe is 100Km we need something in the class of 150Km-200Km, we should pay extra for a radar if this news pushes China and other European firms to offer something better. The advantage I see is tracking up to 40 aircraft and to engage 8 of them, the radar can work in our favor cause of the western AWACS we are getting. So far this is all I see in the radar.

Alam

03-07-2007, 09:05 PM

Shamim sahib, I heard what you have conveyed a long, long time ago. Perhaps in summer of 03. However, that was in connection to the J-10(FC-20), whereas the RC400 was for the JF-17, which was confirmed by Usman's interview with the then CPD JF-17, AVM (now AM) Shahid Lateef.

Now, that is all I heard almost 4 years ago. Things have changed alot since then, but you could definitely be right.

pshamim

03-08-2007, 12:41 AM

Let me add a little background to the news of RBE2 for JF-17/FC-1 speculation.

While the current batch of aircrafts may not get the RBE2, it could happen in the future if Pakistan and China have their way.

Chinese think that the Pakistani order of J-10s has taken the shine away from the JF-17/FC-1. They believe that in order for this aircraft to be a success in the export market, its capabilities will need to be enhanced through a radar enhancement and RCS reduction. They feel that eventually European sanctions will be lifted or Pakistan could directly deal with France through its longstanding defense relationship in acquiring the RBE2. This will provide great enhancement to the aircraft's capabilities.

RCS could be reduced with not only the use of composite materials but also a plan to change the airframe which will help in embedding the weapons like F-35, thus reducing the RCS.

Thunder's price is expected to double from $15 to $30million but the Chinese feel that it will still be low for an advanced aircraft when comparing the price with the Western aircrafts.

That is well and good but I have a question. IS RBE2 with its capability to track 40 target and engaging eight of them is an overkill. We have only 7 hard points to hang only a small number MRAAM. Weapon load is not large enough to support the RBE2 which will cost an arm and leg and increase the price tremendously.

Fahad L

03-08-2007, 01:21 AM

Absolutely, Shamim sahab its an overkill!
The Jf-17 airframe doesnt have a growth potential due to its limited payload and range.
I would rather say that Paf should invest in the F-10,yes RBE2 withAesa anteena is gona be good for F-10 and it would be beneficial because F-10 has a lot of growth potential,it can carry multiple armaments at the same time,delta-canard combination, high manouverability,
larger airframe to house extra avionics ,it really sounds good for F-10,but its definitely an over kill for the Jf-17 in my opinion.
The only possibility is that once the things have gone into the F-10 a smaller version can go into Jf-17.We must remember that one of the reasons why we wanted to have Jf-17 was to have an aircraft which is cheaper so that we can buy it in large nos.

Mohammed Ali

03-08-2007, 01:35 AM

I think the radar will cost an arm and a leg but if inducted, will definitely increase the survivability and effectiveness of the JF-17. The ability to track multiple targets should be taken independently from the weapon load. The more fighters the radar can track or engage at a time, the better the over all picture given to the pilot and ground commanders thus increasing overall situational awareness. It will also give more options to the pilot as to which target to engage, will be more resistant to jamming or decoys, will have better look down/shoot down ability, ability to fly nap of the earth with little problem and other nifty things modern radars can do.
Most definite a plus if it were ever to happen

Munir

03-08-2007, 03:01 AM

amir razvi

03-08-2007, 04:29 AM

There are besides B2 (and little matter B1) zero planes that have stealth and a2g. So adding stealth capacity is making it superior compared to non stealth. The number of planes to be tracked can be used to guide other planes and their BVR weapons. So the relationship between the number of missiles and trackable planes is not linear.

I do think that JF17 will add lots potential if stealth is added. Whether thwy should add expensive radar on the plane is a matter of the budget. Not the limitations of the plane.

AsSalam oAlaikum.
Munir,
My only problem with the addition of this radar is its utility since we will be using AWACS along with these planes in the not too distant future to take care of the range deficiency. In its present shape and form JF17 has too few hardpoints for PAF to invest its hard earned cash into an expensive Radar. We must remember that PAF also wants to acquire F10 which with its 11 hardpoints may be a better candidate for an advanced Radar(preferably an AESA).
However, we have all commented on the possibility of adding more Hardpoints on JF17. If we are using multiple rails on a single hardpoint as has been shown on some pictures, with 9 hardpoints there may then be a case for a better radar. However, by that time probably the Chinese will be tempting us with their own AESA version.
I am no aviation expert but to me it seems like an overkill on the JF17 in its present shape and form. Please feel free to educate me.
Wa Salam
Amir Razvi

M Abdullah

03-08-2007, 05:17 AM

While commenting on the JF-17s, kindly keep in mind that PAF wants to operate two different blocks of this aircraft. They might have this radar in mind for the higher end JF-17s.

FaisalK

03-08-2007, 07:12 AM

That is well and good but I have a question. IS RBE2 with its capability to track 40 target and engaging eight of them is an overkill. We have only 7 hard points to hang only a small number MRAAM. Weapon load is not large enough to support the RBE2 which will cost an arm and leg and increase the price tremendously.
Well another possibility I can think of is that the JF-17 may have a scaled down RBE2. The RBE2 would need to be shortened down in order to fit onto the JF-17. For that reason I imagine they may also reduce the range, target track and engagement a bit in order to reduce acquisition costs. However given that RBE2 is an official option, then that may push Galileo Avionica to offer the Vixen 750 AESA radar for JF-17 - which IMO would be a much more suitable option.

About RCS reduction; are Pakistan and China considering going this route? (see picture)

jawad

03-08-2007, 01:47 PM

pshamim

03-08-2007, 05:05 PM

Some proposed changes to future JF-17. See the sketch.

Boota

03-08-2007, 05:23 PM

Some proposed changes to future JF-17. See the sketch.

Official or amateur? This is pretty much a new plane.

FaisalK

03-08-2007, 05:42 PM

Official or amateur? This is pretty much a new plane.
I agree! I think its amateur or an impression!

This thing can only be real if it's being envisioned as a new-gen low-cost aircraft concept - which I think would be GREAT.

Ahsan786

03-08-2007, 06:15 PM

Some proposed changes to future JF-17. See the sketch.

Poor comparison with the old designs.

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/5774/jf17cs9.jpg

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/7753/jf1bt8.jpg

It looks so beautiful.

Adnan Shaukat

03-08-2007, 06:19 PM

Probably a fake drawing similar to that Photo shopped picture we been seeing for awhile. Doing something like that would delay delivery of the air craft and have to re-go through wind tunnel test, etc.

The best option I see for the current plane is increase the hard point and probably extend the wing span to accommodate the change, while that change is taking place increase the size of the nose and use more composites to decrease the weight, also have 1-2 internal loaded weapons (AA or AG).

But I have a question how will we reduce RCS will we be using radar absorbent paint? How much of an effect could that possibly have in air to air combat? Also, is it proven I heard that Russia once tried it and didn't work so well.

pshamim

03-08-2007, 06:54 PM

mominkhan

03-08-2007, 08:38 PM

RCS could be reduced with not only the use of composite materials but also a plan to change the airframe which will help in embedding the weapons like F-35, thus reducing the RCS.

...

That is well and good but I have a question. IS RBE2 with its capability to track 40 target and engaging eight of them is an overkill. We have only 7 hard points to hang only a small number MRAAM. Weapon load is not large enough to support the RBE2 which will cost an arm and leg and increase the price tremendously.

It appears Pakistan and China are working on FC-2. Nothing could be better. We need to induct FC-1 ASAP and then go for these enhancements.

As Munir pointed out, RBE2 may not be an overkill, if datalinks pass the info on to other fighters--so-called "mini-AWACS."

The changes in RCS look good, but FC-1 probably needs further tweaking at the back to reduce IR signature. FC-1 is coming close to F-16 at present. Further enhancements must look to F-35.

sosolp

03-08-2007, 09:31 PM

friends~as i know,the biggest problem with fc1 is its engine,RD33's thrust weight ratio is too low,china own designed engine 'taishan' is NOT a copy of rd33,last year,its whole state test has begin.with this engine,i believe fc1 can win most dogfight with india fighter~

H Khan

03-08-2007, 09:52 PM

M Abdullah

03-08-2007, 10:10 PM

WS-13 is also known as Taishan.

FaisalK

03-08-2007, 10:21 PM

pshamim

You should read tphuang's comments on SDF. He said that the person who wrote about the RBE2 and RCS reduction, etc, is not known for his insider links.

pshamim

03-09-2007, 12:19 AM

pshamim

You should read tphuang's comments on SDF. He said that the person who wrote about the RBE2 and RCS reduction, etc, is not known for his insider links.

TPHuang is a very knowledgable person. He may be correct. But the first time I ever heard about this development was not from China but Pakistan. I never divulged the information until it shows up in Chinese press.

So, to say that what was reported in Chinese is not reliable because the reporter does not have insider links is absurd. Start to put two and two together. These ideas are being discussed on both sides of the border and I heard it first time on our side.

Personally, I think that Thunder will keep evolving. This is all we will have for some time and Pakistan will keep trying to improve on the current capabilities until we we have matured enough to design something new. I believe that Thunder produced 10 years later will be a totally new concept and design.

Regarding the RBE2, I have already said that it may be an overkill and not a very good idea in my opinion.

Saeed Khan

03-09-2007, 02:02 AM

Personally, I think that Thunder will keep evolving.

Like all things in life, those who plan to survive need to evolve. I love the new design with its twin vertical stabilizers and the slanted surfaces; to reduce RCS. Just use of RAM paint may not be enough; others can do the same.

We need to define basically two types of planes for PAF: Large number of cheap and low tech (relatively speaking) workhorses and few expensive high tech fighters. In other words, designs may have to keep evolving radically over time to meet the above two challenges. Marry a design and your plane may become an LCA!

Munir

03-09-2007, 03:31 AM

You need certain space to launch missiles. Hoe can the proposed plane have missiles that block the flaps on the main wing? And how would one launch 2 long range missiles if they have alomst zero space between eachother? Besides that... The engine should be changed into a much more powerful version otherwise it is unrealistic to begin with.

M Abdullah

03-09-2007, 03:58 AM

Coming back to current JF-17s, will the production models carry an IRST and HMS?

Boota

03-09-2007, 10:10 AM

No Drawing is from Military.China.com which is sponsered by PLAAF. Will that make you change your mind.

Also additions of composites will definitely increase weght.

The drawing seems to be a professional CAD job and not of type made by kids. Also it is similar to earlier concept drawing of JF17s. So it is possible that these drawing might be coming out of a design bureau or atleast from an engineer and maybe are very early conceptulzation of where the JF17 should go next. Only time will tell if this is the direction JF17 or its successor will actualy go.

Zahid Iftikhar

03-09-2007, 11:12 AM

Also additions of composites will definitely increase weght.

Sir, composites are used for weight reduction, how would inclusion of composite parts increase weight? Could it have something to do with increase in volume instead?

pshamim

03-09-2007, 02:30 PM

Sir, composites are used for weight reduction, how would inclusion of composite parts increase weight? Could it have something to do with increase in volume instead?

Smart catch. I meant costs and not weight.
Thanks Zahid Saheb.

Osama Zulfiqar

03-09-2007, 02:50 PM

I remember, one of the respected member hinted on another project development..I think its very logical and natural that it could be the evolution of JF-17.

Alam

03-09-2007, 03:10 PM

Interesting development. In my humble opinion, and with all due respect to everyone, this is just another masterpiece of an ameteur's imagination, the likes of which we have seen many times before.

But before I continue to pass my humble judgement on the case, I'd like to make this clear that the JF-17 will undergo consistent evolution throughout its lifetime. Let there be no doubt about this. However, these upgrades will be more or less restrained to the production prototype (PT-04 or 06), quite like what has happened to an aircraft such as the F-16 (operational ones and not research aircraft such as the XL). Therefore, there will be minor and major upgrades such as addition of new weapon systems, probable re-wiring of aircraft and minor structural changes for addition of new hardpoints.

The aircraft proposed in the drawing - as has already been pointed out by Boota sahib - is fundamentally different from the current JF-17. Such a change in design configuation - combined with what has already been talked about regarding composites, etc - would require considerable investment in both time and money. Significant changes would need to be made to the structure of the aircraft (if applying composites). Yes, this could be done over the next 10-15 years, undoubtedly. But the financial costs associated with such a radical change in design, especially from Pakistan's PoV, do not not justify pursuing such an option.

As far as it being a CAD design is concerned, then that is not a factor which would render any credulence to the design. I know of atleast one person on this forum who could use his imagination to make a 'wicked' model in CATIA V5 and you'd believe that its true? Absolutely not.

alamgir

03-10-2007, 08:33 AM

Some proposed changes to future JF-17. See the sketch.

normaly AC of this shape use two engines,can some one confirm that futur vesion of jf-17 have two engines

Sabre

03-10-2007, 09:29 AM

They're supposed to be handed over to the PAF by the 10th of March.

The 10th March is about to end in few hrs & I dont c no JF-17. & the PAF people in my university dont have any idea either of its delivery date. They say they herd it would either last week of Feb or 1st week of March & we have crossed both of them.

Munir

03-10-2007, 01:52 PM

I don't expect huge noise either. The planes are probably sent to Pakistan and being assembled and tested. I bet the politicians/military were not happy that some pictures were leaked prior delivery. No problemo. We waited years for picturs. I remember the first photoshopped F7... I can wait till the end...

mominkhan

03-11-2007, 12:22 AM

But before I continue to pass my humble judgement on the case, I'd like to make this clear that the JF-17 will undergo consistent evolution throughout its lifetime. Let there be no doubt about this. However, these upgrades will be more or less restrained to the production prototype (PT-04 or 06), quite like what has happened to an aircraft such as the F-16 (operational ones and not research aircraft such as the XL). Therefore, there will be minor and major upgrades such as addition of new weapon systems, probable re-wiring of aircraft and minor structural changes for addition of new hardpoints.

The way things are done in the US aerospace industry is different from how JF-17 has been designed. US Airforce puts out a specification and companies compete with their designs and prototypes. If LM had changed F-16 substantially, it would have been left without a customer!

PAF had a significant say in the design of JF-17. Al-Khalid II is in progress. JF-17 will similarly be enhanced. I think the changes would be much more substantial than those for F-16. Composites, thrust vectoring, RAM and AESA radar are definitely on the cards. Internal weapons storage has now been mentioned. Let's see what the future brings. It should be quite exciting.

Shakeel Ahmed

03-12-2007, 08:43 PM

I don't think we'll see such a drastic alteration to the curent airframe but do not be suprised to see Paksitani engineering working on stealth tecnologies and developments for this version and probably i feel invovled with developed with a 5th generation fighter with China.

pshamim

03-12-2007, 08:49 PM

Well brothers, Indians are stunned. There has not been a single response on Bharat Rakshak afetr the news was posted there by one member. They have no words to respond-Sanp soongh gaya hai.

Shakeel Ahmed

03-12-2007, 08:52 PM

I have more explicit terms for what has happened for them, but this forum doesn't strike me as one where my terms would b aprpecaited to thier fullest by the audience....lol

Btw, didn't you meant his post in the next topic?

pshamim

03-12-2007, 09:23 PM

FaisalK

03-12-2007, 09:27 PM

I am really intrigued by the absence of any comments by the Russians. These two aircrafts with RD-93 were inducted/comissioned into PAF. Is India loosing Russians or their presumed powers to blackmail everyone is waning.

Win Win for Pakistan
pshamim

Any word on the helmet-mounted-sight/display system for JF-17? Will it be South African - like the Guardian or Archer. What about WVR-AAM? Are we looking at A-Darter or IRIS-T?

SyedA

03-12-2007, 10:19 PM

I am really intrigued by the absence of any comments by the Russians. These two aircrafts with RD-93 were inducted/comissioned into PAF. Is India loosing Russians or their presumed powers to blackmail everyone is waning.

Win Win for Pakistan

According to one of the posts related to this topic/news on CMF, Russians have said we do not care about the engine anymore which is pretty interesting since we have not seen any news from the Russian side.

syed_yusuf

03-12-2007, 11:04 PM

From these aircrafts we are missing IRST/FLIR that was expected as it was visible in model presented by ACM to (I believe) President.

pshamim

03-15-2007, 01:52 PM

Here is an article in the Chinese press making a case for FC-1 to be used as a carrier aircraft by Chinese Navy. It does give out a lot of interesting informatio.

China is a developing Xiaolong FC-based attack aircraft carrier battle?
：2007-03-15][Date : 2007-03-15] Source : China Net
FC—1 will be the use of domestic attack aircraft carrier battle engine, improving and upgrading the technology used F10, maiden flight is expected in 2012 and the development of carrier-coach. 。Su-33 will be formed with the FTC-1 level of match, the Chinese carrier equipment.

——Why not say, the F10 is a game --

　　Xiaolong aircraft is outstanding mobility, greater range, and combat radius of empty time, Short landing good character and a strong ability to carry weapons, and medium - and low-altitude high subsonic outstanding mobile combat capability. a better interception and ground attack capability on the all-weather, single, single, a new generation of light fighter. Middle aspect ratio wing of the plane while the normal distribution, a total of seven wings the whole plane, hoisting a variety of air-to-air, air weapons can store three drop tank, the ability to store more than 3,600 kilograms. The aircraft's aerodynamic shape and use of advanced high-thrust. The turbofan engine with low fuel consumption and telex advanced digital flight control system, integrated avionics and weapons systems. from the missile firing is, the ability to attack multiple targets over the horizon, with a variety of advanced precision navigation. battlefield situation awareness, target detection and identification, electronic warfare and attack operations functions.

　　As a result of the contemporary advanced design and manufacturing technology, Xiaolong third-generation fighter aircraft and overall operational efficiency, with today's advanced fighters contend, Light is also small, low-cost characteristics, and meet the requirements of modern warfare requirements and the needs of the market for military aircraft.

　　枭Xiaolong FC is to meet the demands of modern warfare and military aircraft market demand, It features a host of advanced modern technologies and the development of new advanced fighter planes. Can be used to gradually replace the current UM in 1976, F-5, MIRAGE- IIIs F-7. The series-5 and F-16 aircraft to meet the needs of developing countries to update the middle and lower ends of fighters. using a modern aircraft design philosophy is :

　　 Advanced configuration

　　Middle normal aspect ratio wing aircraft type configuration of the border, both sides "oblique" inlet. aircraft will be able to maintain good at high angle of attack into the air. Can accommodate large-caliber nose radar antenna. Wing, horizontal tail, front-sweep Yields were 42 ° composite wing bending and torsion, sweep angle of 75 ° edge of the large extended to the tail of the fuselage. LEADING-wide wingspan and a wing edge flap; Moving differential horizontal tail axis, single-Yields, the two pelvic fins. Airframe modification using supersonic legal area, a mixed beam with a half-nut body structure. Advanced aerodynamic characteristics of the layout of the aircraft has better lift, the lift-to-drag ratio and the greater good of HAOA.

　　· High-performance engine system

　　Thrust RD-93 equipped with a large, low fuel consumption of high thrust-weight ratio turbofan engines. Engine thrust Biomass Afterburner kilograms combat thrust 5O4O kilograms, and effectively raise the aircraft's rate of climb, mobility and endurance time.

　　 Excellent short take-off and landing characteristics of the flight and combat radius larger

　　Former three-point landing gear, the overall structure of tanks, aircraft fuel 227O kg. 。Can be decorated with three drop tank.

　　·Ejection advanced sound system and the cockpit vision
　　Ejection System detonating cord to wear micro covered by the canopy broken cable systems and micro-explosion "zero-zero" Ejection Seat components. Greatly improved the survival rate in the low negative attitude of the rescue. Domestic cabin equipped with the most advanced TY5B which allocated rocket ejection seat. Loading can MK-16K British company Martin Baker ejection seat, to provide users with a variety of options.

　　The overall shape of stalls, blister-covered cabin, in front of more than 13 ° angle under the level reached 330 ° field of vision. 。Provided a good vision for pilots.

　　· Advanced flight control and integrated avionics and weapons systems

　　Low-cost, advanced more than 40 degrees vertically full authority digital analogue backup redundancy plus two-wire control system, two horizontal mechanically controlled and limited authority digital control stability augmentation system redundancy. Aircraft with low cost and high performance, excellent quality and variety of flying automatic driving function, adaptability, scalability strong.

　　Two management tasks to computers and MIL-STD-1553B aircraft weapons and STD Bus Bus -1760C weapons and weapons for the integrated navigation system with target search, detection and tracking. Store management, and put in weapons, navigation, communications and IFF, data link communications, missile approach warning. integrated electronic warfare, mission planning and record parameters such as functional, modern cockpit layout. Cabin contain a wide field of view HUD, and three multi-function color LCD display, hands shift control system with a good man-machine interface. Cockpit lighting to meet the requirements of night flights.

　　Multifunction Fire Control Radar with pulsed Doppler velocity search, while track-while-scan while searching edges range, single-target tracking, multi-target tracking and aerial combat capabilities such as air-to-air mode, and has real beam mapping and expanded beam sharpening, ranging space. surface target detection and tracking of air-to-ground mode.

　　·Powerful weapons distribution, precision weapons and put ground attack capability.

　　Equipped with a 23 mm guns. Winglet whole plane, including a total of seven bombs wings, flags multiple air-to-air, air-to-ground weapons. Store total capacity of 3,600 kg. According to different tasks can be carried out missile wings close grapple over the horizon of medium-range missiles, anti-ship missiles, anti-radiation missiles. 250 kg, 500 kg, 100 kg conventional bombs and laser-guided bombs; rockets of various calibers; electronic warfare device; laser device and infrared night vision device so.

　　·。Excellent operational performance, all-weather, over-the-horizon capability.

　　Prominent low-altitude aircraft, high subsonic mobile combat capability. good interception and ground attack, as well as over-the-horizon capability. 。Air-to-air combat based, with a strong air-to-ground combat capability. Have the range, and combat radius of empty time. Able to weather the implementation of air operations, air intercept and escort combatants, battlefield interdiction and close support. to the sea to support and precision attack missions. Also for reconnaissance, jamming, coaches and other special aircraft.

Source:war-china

affendi

03-16-2007, 07:42 PM

FYI: a poster over at PDF who attended the recent passing out parade at risalpur has claimed that the JF-17s will be getting a new camo and are currently in the paint shop for the march 23rd parade. get ready to rock and roll boys.

SyedA

03-19-2007, 01:41 PM

Air Marshal Khalid Choudhry, Chairman of the Pakistan aeronautical Complex Board (PACB), accepted KDR’s exclusive interview. He disclosed that 8 JF17 fighters are now on the production line in Chengdu, and some of them will be delivered to Pakistan on March 23, 2007, the Independence Day of the country. These two JF17 fighters are expected to give demonstrative flights on the Independence Day, and the remaining JF17 fighters will all be delivered to Pakistan within 2007. In January 2008, Pakistan will start producing JF17 fighter.

Air Marshal Choudhry told KDR that the first batch of JF17 fighters would be fitted with Chinese-made radar systems, and currently two research institutes in Nanjing and Wuxi (KDR note: No.14 Institute and No.607 Institute) are bidding for the radar systems. Pakistan will make a decision upon completing all tests. Meanwhile, since the Pakistani Air Force has chosen the Grifo-7 radar system designed by Italian Galileo Avionica Company for F7PG fighter, Galileo Avionica hopes that eventually it will win the bid for JF17 radar system. “Pakistan is very clever. They will allow two Chinese companies to compete with each other first, and then get the Chinese compete with Western companies. If Pakistan requests, Galileo Avionica will provide Pakistan with the radar system for testing on JF17,” a source from Galileo Avionica said. KDR learned that the testing JF17 uses Chinese KLJ10 radar.

As for the weapon systems on JF17, China offered a number of choices, including LT-2 laser guided bombs, LS-6 GPS guided bombs and SD10 active radar guided AAMs. Nonetheless, Air Marshal Choudhry said that they are still assessing these offers and no final decisions have been made. JF17 can be fitted with either Chinese weapon systems or Western weapons.

As regard the application of RD93 engines, Air Marshal confirmed that “it is not an issue at all.” He said that Pakistan would formally begin manufacturing JF17fighters in January 2008. With technological assistance from China, installation of the production facility is now under way, and some of the equipments are imported from Western countries. The production output of JF17 after 2008 will be very much depending on the demand of the Pakistani Air Force, probably 15-20 annually. Air Marshal said that the eventual production plan would be more than 150, because the Pakistani Air Force needs to fully replace the existing hundreds of Mirage and J7 fighters.

Air Commodore Muhammad Kamal Alam, Managing Director of PACB, told KDR that the current plan is that RD93 will be serviced by China, but Pakistan has confidence that it would eventually maintain and repair the engines on its own, as Pakistan had the experience of repairing the American and French aviation engines simultaneously under extremely difficult conditions. He said that Pakistan planned to manufacture 15 JF17 fighters in 2008and another 20 in 2009.

According to the terms in the original JF17 production contract, eventually 50% of the production activity will be in Pakistan, and the final assembling will also be in Pakistan. There is also a plan to promote JF17 to the Sri Lanka Air Force.
_
KDR has confirmed that JF17 uses longitudinal quadroplex fly-by-wire (FBW) system, and the lateral flight control system is still mechanical. The FC1 designed in 2001 was planned to use longitudinal duplex FBW system while Air Marshal Choudhry said that the upgraded JF17 fighter would use all directional FBW system.

Br. General Raja Hafeez, Managing Director for aircraft manufacturing at PACB, told KDR that the unit price of JF17 would be under US$20 million.

At the same time of receiving JF17 fighters, Pakistan also plans to purchase 18 F16 Block 52 fighters during the first phase, and it also reserves the option of purchasing another 18 fighters of the same model. In addition, Pakistan will upgrade the F16 fighters currently in service. The F16 Block 52 fighter currently being promoted to Pakistan is fitted with external fuel tanks similar to the F16 Block 52 fighters of the Singaporean Air Force. A source from the Pakistani Air Force says that the weapon systems to be fitted on F16 Block 52 are still under final assessment.

Group Captain Arif Mahmood TI (M), Director of Human Resources Department of the Pakistani Air Force Headquarters, disclosed to KDR that Pakistan is now tired of the constant sanctions and technological restrictions of other countries, and thus earnestly hopes that it can manufacture fighters independently. Nonetheless, he frankly acknowledged that the pilots of the Air Force like the US-made F16 better, and annual training time of these pilots is 100-200 hours. The requirements for F16 pilots are different from those for other types of fighters, and they are often assigned with a variety of tasks.

KDR assumes that the Pakistani Air Force has already put the JF17 plan on the top of its priorities.

With JF17 fighters entering the Pakistani Air Force soon, the Chinese military enterprises have started to bid for the weapon systems to be fitted on JF17. The laser guided bombs currently fitted on JF17 is extremely similar to the LT-2 LGB developed by Luoyang Optical-Electro Technology Development Center. In addition, China also put on display at the 2006 Zhuhai Air Show another type of laser targeting pod specifically designed for JF17.

At the IDEAS 2006 in Karachi, NORINCO displayed a 500kg laser guided called GB1,
which uses a laser seeker similar to that of the Russian 155mm Krashnopol gun launched projectile. This GB1 LGB is semi-active guided, and along with it on the display platform are a laser target designation device and a laser targeting pod. _

KDR reported earlier that Xi’an Sicong Group has obtained one set of the Russian Krasnopol LGB laser seeker, and Russia has also transferred the technology of this laser seeker to China. Technical experts from Xi’an Sicong Group claim that before the technological transfer from Russia, they had developed a laser seeker similar to that of Krasnopol. This laser seeker can be used not only on guided projectiles, but also on other aviation bombs.

Sicong Group displayed the Chinese edition Krasnopol laser seeker at the 2006 Zhuhai Air Show for less than one day before removing it from the exhibition platform, indicating that the Chinese military forces are now armed with this system. A source says that they not only hope to introduce the GB1 LGB onto the JF17 fighters of the Pakistan Air Force, but that the A5 attackers currently in service in Pakistan can also use this laser guided bomb. Nonetheless, a source from the Pakistan Air Force told KDR that they do not have plans to upgrade A5 attackers at the moment, as the lifespan of A5s is almost coming to an end.

The physical structure of this 500kg GB1 LGB is almost identical to that of LT-2 LGB, with the only difference in their guidance systems.

The Pakistan Air Force has already acquired the US-made GBU12 LGB, and Pakistan is also producing GBU12 laser seeker under technological license from the US. Some Western military observers have even claimed that China acquired the GBU12 laser guidance technology from Pakistan in the earlier years. The laser guidance technologies of LT-2 and GBU12 belong to the same generation. Under this circumstance, LT-2 will be in face of challenges in the Pakistani market from the indigenous GBU12.

Mohammed Ali

03-19-2007, 04:14 PM

Typo in your post Syed re. Mar 13 being the Independence Day for Pakistan.

SSAAD

03-19-2007, 04:19 PM

Mohammed Ali saheb,

Typo in your post about Mar 13. Its March 23rd and its the Pakistan resolution day :p

Mohammed Ali

03-19-2007, 05:50 PM

lol yup ... 23 vs 13th. def a typo there

mHussain

03-24-2007, 09:55 PM

PAF seeks more JF-17 fighters
The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aims to acquire 200-250 JF-17 Thunder (FC-1) fighter aircraft in place of the 150 originally envisaged, the country's air force...
23-Mar-2007

http://jdw.janes.com/public/jdw/index.shtml

FaisalK

03-24-2007, 10:15 PM

I wonder, is the PAF planning to standardize its JF-17s on a single avionics suite, radar and range of weapon-systems (interoperability), or is it planning to split them into multiple versions. Personally I think standardization should be the goal, 200-250 is a pretty big number. It would give Pakistan leverage when negotiating for some technology transfer and even local production for the radar, avionics and weapon-systems for JF-17. Due to past agreements, I reckon Galileo Avionica/Selex and SAGEM would be on the forefront of radars and avionics choices, respectively.

There are a lot of things about Pakistan coming out of Janes these days. I hope they do a full and detailed review of the Pakistan Armed Forces, including future acquisitions, plans, etc. Would be an edition worth buying.

AArshad

03-25-2007, 04:17 AM

M Abdullah

03-25-2007, 05:11 AM

According to the PAC chairman's interview to KANWA they're trying to split the numbers in two block, I & II. Both with a different set of armaments and avionics.

Munir

03-25-2007, 05:18 AM

Every batch has structural upgrades and software upgrades are usually and certainly with JF17 with plug and play equipment... They will have same kind of series like F16. Now you have JF17A and we hope to see JF17B... Block II will be JF17C (or/and D)... If one compare this to F16 then one might remember that JF17A is almost as good as F16C...

I still wonder when arrestor hook... FLIR... HMS... IFR will be added. I hope not to wait till block II...

M Abdullah

03-25-2007, 05:21 AM

mHussain

03-25-2007, 11:31 AM

Can anybody guess how they will be deployed, what will they replace first, what will the replace last?

SSAAD

03-25-2007, 11:48 AM

Munir, FLIR or IRST? I'm asking that because we've already seen the FLIR module at last Chinese Aviation show. But still no signs of the IRST. And why arrestor hook? unless you're talking about FC-1s.

As per ex-CPD JF-17 Shahid Latif in AFM, IFR, IRST, stealth features (potentially RAM etc.) and modifications to propulsion system are all on the roadmap. FLIR is not a big deal as it may be podded instead of being fully integrated.

FaisalK

03-25-2007, 12:14 PM

I hope this year at least one of Denel, BAe, Thales and a Chinese firm begin competing for the JF-17's helmet mounted sight/display system. I wonder if plans changed regarding it, i.e acquiring a helmet mounted cueing system instead?

Would be interesting if PAF looks at any of the below:

Denel: System based off Archer (Guardian proposed for Gripen)
BAe: System based off Striker (Cobra proposed for Gripen)
Thales: System based off TopSight-E (like the one used on IN MiG-29)

The current images of PAF JF-17s suggest that the helmet system has not yet been chosen - they were wearing HGU-55P.

Zain Abbass

03-25-2007, 12:16 PM

Stealth features like these?

mHussain

03-25-2007, 01:41 PM

Can anybody guess how they will be deployed, what will they replace first, what will the replace last?

Let me try to answer that :D

First the F-7Ps, then the A-5s and lastly the Mirages. But going by crash rates, I'd think they might replace them simultaneously by taking out the worst air frames. Which would mean the older mirages might get replaced earlier.

Sarmad

03-25-2007, 02:28 PM

Gaf

03-25-2007, 02:33 PM

Let me try to answer that :D

First the F-7Ps, then the A-5s and lastly the Mirages. But going by crash rates, I'd think they might replace them simultaneously by taking out the worst air frames. Which would mean the older mirages might get replaced earlier.

The least capable platform is the A5, so theoretically they would be the first to go, but as you have said, crash rates will also come into the mix. The whole fleet of A5s/F7P's and Mirage III / V's need replacing rather urgently. F7PGs can soldier on for a while. Thankfully, JF17 is not too expensive as platforms go, but doing a simple replacement with 250 new aircraft ( all indications point to a 1 to 1 replacement ), will mean 250 x $20million = ~ $5billion dollars over the lifetime of the programme. Add in the 90-100 odd F16s, and 36 FC-20's @ $1.5 billion dollars, you are talking about a fair amount of cash over the next several years.

Zain Abbass

03-25-2007, 02:36 PM

Why cant we sell some of these aircrafts to customers like Bangladesh or Sri Lanka? It will help us finance the cost of the JF-17.

Murad

03-25-2007, 02:40 PM

Why cant we sell some of these aircrafts to customers like Bangladesh or Sri Lanka? It will help us finance the cost of the JF-17.

Who says we can't? The aircraft is up for sale but someone has to want to buy it.

ehtisham

03-25-2007, 03:22 PM

And why arrestor hook? unless you're talking about FC-1s.

Why for FC-1s only? Tail hook/arrestor hook in conjunction with the barriers/arresting cable helps stop the airplane, specially during an emergency landing when the wheel brakes are damaged/malfunctioning. F-16s also have the tail hook.. but i'm not sure whether our runways have proper barriers or not! :p

M Abdullah

03-25-2007, 03:34 PM

Because arrestor hooks are usually used on carrier based planes not land based.

Munir

03-25-2007, 03:59 PM

There are two kind of arrestor hooks... Retractable and non-retractable... The first is for carrier based planes and the second for emergency landings... Just in case a plane cannot reduce speed and might end up... Old data...

ehtisham

03-25-2007, 04:04 PM

That's right, but they are used on runways as well when needed. Besides, i don't think there's going to be any FC-1 naval version. It simply isn't designed for that role. To be able to operate from carriers, it's airframe will require structural changes, it will have to be made alot more tough for rough landings/take-offs and new landing gears with high shock resistance will also be required. Not going to happen any soon IMO.

Zain Abbass

03-25-2007, 04:44 PM

Who says we can't? The aircraft is up for sale but someone has to want to buy it.
I was not referring to selling the JF-17's but the old aircraft that we are getting rid off from our fleet.

Hafeez

03-25-2007, 04:56 PM

I was not referring to selling the JF-17's but the old aircraft that we are getting rid off from our fleet.

So what are we gonna tell em? Hey we got loads of these planes falling of the skies you wanna buy em?
Noone will want to buy these birds. Maybe Muesums. Or if some airforce needs spare parts.

Hafeez

03-25-2007, 05:29 PM

As per ex-CPD JF-17 Shahid Latif in AFM, IFR, IRST, stealth features (potentially RAM etc.) and modifications to propulsion system are all on the roadmap. FLIR is not a big deal as it may be podded instead of being fully integrated.

I am totally confused with this IRST and FLIR issue. I have seen a picture of FC-1 model with a FLIR pod lying infront of it. That sounds reasonable and i dont see much problem with that. But when PAF officials talked about IRST, did they mean an integrated system like at the fore of Sukhoi or Fulcrums? We have even seen an IFR for JF-17 but no such system has been on display. The other system totally absent from the scene is HMD.

How about a combination on Mig-35 with one sensor at the fore of nose for upper hemisphere and one at below the fuesalage for the bottom hemisphere. Is it feasible to introduce something in the DSI bulge? There was another picture that i saw of a jamming faring in the leading wing extension of Mig-35. LERXs on JF-17 seem to be too thin for housing anything there.

mHussain

03-25-2007, 07:21 PM

So what are we gonna tell em? Hey we got loads of these planes falling of the skies you wanna buy em?
Noone will want to buy these birds. Maybe Muesums. Or if some airforce needs spare parts.

I have a few ideas on what we can do with them:

1. Sell them as spares to airfoces using those aircraft. The brazilians for instance might like some of our mirages.

2. Send them as military aid, gain some political footing in africa. negotiate terms of opening up their economies to our goods. f7ps could be useful here.

3. sell all the rest on ebay, you'd be surpised at what people can sell there. i have personally made a good amount of money buying stuff and selling them on ebay last year. collectors and aircaft enthusiasts would be willing to pay a good deal for them, particularly if the item is guaranteed to reach them by the pakistan government.

ushakeel

03-25-2007, 07:36 PM

Building new JF-17s,buying F-16 C/Ds and FC-20 is one thing,second thing is that our pilots need to get a hand on them and in my point of view looking 2-3 years down the road I do not see Mirage III/Vs,F-7 and A-5s etc to be retired soon.

mHussain

03-25-2007, 09:43 PM

The least capable platform is the A5, so theoretically they would be the first to go, but as you have said, crash rates will also come into the mix. The whole fleet of A5s/F7P's and Mirage III / V's need replacing rather urgently. F7PGs can soldier on for a while. Thankfully, JF17 is not too expensive as platforms go, but doing a simple replacement with 250 new aircraft ( all indications point to a 1 to 1 replacement ), will mean 250 x $20million = ~ $5billion dollars over the lifetime of the programme. Add in the 90-100 odd F16s, and 36 FC-20's @ $1.5 billion dollars, you are talking about a fair amount of cash over the next several years.

I think the A-5s might stay slightly longer than the F-7Ps because
1) they are safer because of their engines
2) because they have been used more sparingly (F-7Ps have been flown like there was no tomorrow, particularly during the sanction years to keep up flight hours)

On the other hand, from a purely maintenance perspective, I'd have got rid of the Mirages first, one can get spares for A-5s and F-7Ps but Mirage spares are a lot harder to come buy. They'd probably get cannibalized first. Crash rates are also worse for the Mirages. Somehow the F-7Ps where always (strangely) better made than the Mirages, not withstanding the overhauls at Kamra. Perhaps someone can confirm this conjecture of mine.

its quite a lot of money, don't get me wrong, I don't mean we should turn and sell everything right away but rather, I'm looking at this over the next 5 years. Most likely start cannibalizing simultaneously with all types, and getting rid of the worst airframes first.

Mohammed Ali

03-25-2007, 11:25 PM

I think the A-5s might stay slightly longer than the F-7Ps because
1) they are safer because of their engines
2) because they have been used more sparingly (F-7Ps have been flown like there was no tomorrow, particularly during the sanction years to keep up flight hours)

On the other hand, from a purely maintenance perspective, I'd have got rid of the Mirages first, one can get spares for A-5s and F-7Ps but Mirage spares are a lot harder to come buy. They'd probably get cannibalized first. Crash rates are also worse for the Mirages. Somehow the F-7Ps where always (strangely) better made than the Mirages, not withstanding the overhauls at Kamra. Perhaps someone can confirm this conjecture of mine.

its quite a lot of money, don't get me wrong, I don't mean we should turn and sell everything right away but rather, I'm looking at this over the next 5 years. Most likely start cannibalizing simultaneously with all types, and getting rid of the worst airframes first.

I would have to disagree with you on all your points.
A-5s lasting longer has nothing to do with engines. In fact they are harder to maintain and losing 1 engine will pretty much mean an ejection. (Having 2 engines in case of F-6/A-5 does little to nothing for survivability). As for having flown less sparangly, you have to consider that A-5s have been in service much longer then the F-7s as well. That also brings in the fact that F-7s have been bought in several batches, starting from the late 80s to 2002. They are newer airframes with better servicability. Also, as of date no A-5 has undergone any extensive upgrade like the Mirage or F-7 fleet. Look at the pictures of an A-5 interior and you will see what junk the 2 ground attack sqnds have to fly!
I also wouldnt read too much into the extra flying hours put into the F-7 fleet during the sanction years. F-16s are less then 10% of the total number of aircraft in PAF and even then there was really never a point where no F-16 was in the air (Unlike what happened with the Mig-29s in IAF). F-16 hours were cut back for two reasons ... to save costs (spares were still available, just more expensive) and to save the airframes from extensive use as they had seen during the Afghan war in the 80s.

From a maintenance point of view, I would replace the Mirages last! baring the F-7PGs. Its a fact that Mirages are less labor extensive then the F-7s ... and especially so then the A-5s (That are a nightmare to work on). And who told you Mirage spares are really hard to come by? Pakistan has in the recent years bought tons of Mirage engines/air frames and associated spares to keep the fleet airworthy for another 8-10 years. And there are still options to buy more if PAF ever wanted to.
Mirages also offer the best strike and interceptor platform bar the token F-16s in service. With the extensive ROSE upgrades done only a couple of years ago, how can you say we should replace them at first sight? Heck in roles of recon and maritime strike, we don't even have a fighter to fill those niche roles.
Regarding the crash rates, I would like to know how you came up with the conclusion that the Mirages have a worse safety records then the A-5s/F-7s? Are you looking at raw data, on the assumption that it is even fully available to public?

mHussain

03-27-2007, 12:10 AM

I would have to disagree with you on all your points.
A-5s lasting longer has nothing to do with engines. In fact they are harder to maintain and losing 1 engine will pretty much mean an ejection. (Having 2 engines in case of F-6/A-5 does little to nothing for survivability). As for having flown less sparangly, you have to consider that A-5s have been in service much longer then the F-7s as well. That also brings in the fact that F-7s have been bought in several batches, starting from the late 80s to 2002. They are newer airframes with better servicability. Also, as of date no A-5 has undergone any extensive upgrade like the Mirage or F-7 fleet. Look at the pictures of an A-5 interior and you will see what junk the 2 ground attack sqnds have to fly!
I also wouldnt read too much into the extra flying hours put into the F-7 fleet during the sanction years. F-16s are less then 10% of the total number of aircraft in PAF and even then there was really never a point where no F-16 was in the air (Unlike what happened with the Mig-29s in IAF). F-16 hours were cut back for two reasons ... to save costs (spares were still available, just more expensive) and to save the airframes from extensive use as they had seen during the Afghan war in the 80s.

From a maintenance point of view, I would replace the Mirages last! baring the F-7PGs. Its a fact that Mirages are less labor extensive then the F-7s ... and especially so then the A-5s (That are a nightmare to work on). And who told you Mirage spares are really hard to come by? Pakistan has in the recent years bought tons of Mirage engines/air frames and associated spares to keep the fleet airworthy for another 8-10 years. And there are still options to buy more if PAF ever wanted to.
Mirages also offer the best strike and interceptor platform bar the token F-16s in service. With the extensive ROSE upgrades done only a couple of years ago, how can you say we should replace them at first sight? Heck in roles of recon and maritime strike, we don't even have a fighter to fill those niche roles.
Regarding the crash rates, I would like to know how you came up with the conclusion that the Mirages have a worse safety records then the A-5s/F-7s? Are you looking at raw data, on the assumption that it is even fully available to public?

Looking back I think you make more sense than me :)

Abbas Naqvi

03-27-2007, 02:24 PM

where are the high resolution pictures ?

affendi

03-29-2007, 03:43 PM

PAF to seek more Chinese aircraft, says air chief

By our correspondent

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aims to acquire 200-250 JF-17 Thunder (FC-1) fighter aircraft in place of the 150 originally envisaged, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed has said in an interview published in the latest issue of the prestigious Jane’s Defence Weekly, an international defence magazine.

The PAF’s first two JF-17s were displayed publicly on 23 March following their arrival earlier in the month. The Pakistani Air chief also spoke about the controversy surrounding reports of the Russia engines intended to power the JF-17. “We haven’t contracted the Russians on this [the engine], so the deal is between Russia and China.We have no issues related to this, although there have been efforts to impede progress by creating some road blocks in this particular path,” said the Pakistani air chief.

According to Jane’s Russian sources had initially said emphatically, that the RD-93 engines supplied to China and meant to power the JF-17 could not be re-exported to Pakistan. This position was reversed in November 2006, when senior officials from Klimov and China’s Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group said during a joint press briefing at the Zhuhai Air Show in China that a re-export deal was nearing completion.

According to Jane’s the Pakistani Air chief’s reference to “efforts to impede progress” relates to strong lobbying efforts by the Indian government following the Zhuhai statement. JaneÕs adds that Indian sources say, Russian President Vladimir Putin subsequently “assured” New Delhi during his January visit to India that Russian engines would not power the PAF fighters.

But the publication goes on to say, Pakistani sources claim they have a clear understanding from Chinese authorities that there will be no Russian effort to block the supply of the RD-93 engines to Pakistan. “The Chinese have told us the Russians haven’t issued a written licence but the Russians will not block the supply of the RD-93 to Pakistan,” one senior Pakistani government official told Jane’s. Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed also told Jane’s that Pakistan should take delivery of another six or seven JF-17 aircraft before 2008, which would be used for testing. “These are all weapons that are on our inventory and we have lots of weapons,” he added, referring to the test programme’s weapon integration phase.

The Pakistani Air Chief expects the first JF-17s to be inducted in a PAF squadron by the end of 2008, with serial production to start at the rate of up to 20 annually. However, the programme’s planned enlargement could see an expansion of production facilities at the Pakistan Aeronautical complex in Kamra or some off-the-shelf acquisitions from China, Jane’s quotes the Pakistani air chief.

On other important projects with China, the Pakistani air chief also revealed that Pakistan is well advanced in negotiations with China on the possible acquisition of up to 40 J-10 fighters which are the most advanced fighter aircrafts so far produced by China. Pakistan President General Pervez Musharraf was given a detailed briefing on the J-10 during his last visit to China.

“We are serious in our discussions and, as air chief, I look forward to getting this programme (of the J-10) to a stage where we can contract this. I am looking at two squadrons of aircraft, anywhere between 32 and 40 platforms,” said the Air chief.

The Pakistani Air chief also revealed in the interview to Jane’s Defence Weekly that China has offered Pakistan an airborne warning and control system aircraft. “We have tested and evaluated, finding it fairly good but there are areas where we definitely want improvements, both in the platform and in the radar,” he said, adding that all these objectives should be achievable.

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=6815

Aziz

03-29-2007, 05:43 PM

The sooner the Chinese finish their own engine programme for the JF-17 the better. Only then will we be able to fully relax.

Aziz

Murad

03-29-2007, 06:30 PM

The sooner the Chinese finish their own engine programme for the JF-17 the better. Only then will we be able to fully relax.

Aziz

True. The same thing applies to J-10/F-20. The engine will be the biggest stumbling block in that case. While the Indians may swallow their inability to effectively prevent RD-93 transfer, expect them to mount a much more vigorous response/opposition to an AL-31 equipped J-10 headed for Pakistan. Let's hope that development of WS-10 and WS-13 continues smoothly so that we do not have to face any uncertainty from the engine front.

pshamim

03-29-2007, 09:02 PM

True. The same thing applies to J-10/F-20. The engine will be the biggest stumbling block in that case. While the Indians may swallow their inability to effectively prevent RD-93 transfer, expect them to mount a much more vigorous response/opposition to an AL-31 equipped J-10 headed for Pakistan. Let's hope that development of WS-10 and WS-13 continues smoothly so that we do not have to face any uncertainty from the engine front.

I believe WS-10 is in a very advanced stage for Chinese to commit J-10s to Pakistan. I am sure Chinese do not want to go through this fiasco with Russians again.

Ali_A

03-29-2007, 09:49 PM

Air Chief Marshal to brief Journalists about JF-17 Thunders today

ISLAMABAD: Air Chief Marshal, Tanveer Mehmood Ahmad will brief the journalists about JF-17 Thunder here in the Pakistan Aero Nautical Complex Kamra today (Friday).

Air Chief Marshal will highlight the unique features, manufacturing of JF-17 Thunder and future plans of Pakistan Air Force.

He will also brief the journalists about the recent progress on the issue of F-16 deal between Pakistan-America.

Air Marshal Tanveer Mehmood would also arrange visit of Aircraft Manufacturing factory Kamra for the Journalists.

There he will review manufacturing process of plans, overhauling and repair of different plans.

Moreover, two JF-17 thunders manufactured in collaboration of Pakistan and China have already participated in the Fly Past on the eve of Pakistan Day.

http://www.onlinenews.com.pk/details.php?id=110311

JunaidNasir

03-30-2007, 09:40 PM

JF-17 engine row resolved: Air chief

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=6854

By Mayed Ali

KAMRA: Air Chief Marshal Tanveer Mehmood has said the issue involving the engine of JF-17 Thunder aircraft has been resolved amicably and there is no immediate threat vis-a-vis availability of the Russian RD-93 engines for the aircraft.

While addressing the queries of media at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in the first ‘Meet the Press’ here Friday, the Air chief seemed confident that the joint venture would never be sabotaged, regarding the controversy attached to the supply of engines.

Admitting India had been trying hard to dash the future prospects of the JF-17 Thunder, Tanveer made it clear that the Chinese authorities had given concrete assurances after having sorted the issue with the Russian counterparts. He maintained China was responsible for the supply of engines for it had entered into an agreement with the Russian firm, manufacturing the RD-93 engines.

Asked if Pakistan and China were looking for alternatives, he said such an initiative could be fruitful for both the producers as the project envisaged large number of combat aircraft production in the years to come. As aircrafts needed new engines twice in its operational service, the production of new engine could help smooth supply, besides making the project more cost-effective.

Asked about his fears vis-a-vis the possibility of negative Russian intervention, Tanveer said: “Yes, it’s a Russian engine. And yes, the notion about the Indian endeavours is partly true. But one must understand that the engine is a contract between the Chinese and the Russian governments. We are not a party to that contract. Subsequently, the re-exporting of these engines to Pakistan is the issue between Pakistan and the Chinese industry. They have ensured us there would be no impediment in this regard. We hope this engine issue will cease to be an issue.”

Asked about the cost of a JF-17, the Air chief said the cost per piece was almost half of any of the compatible fourth generation fighter jet in the market. He said the advanced platforms cost anything between $45 million to $150 million. He believed the potential of the aircraft was much greater when compared to the cost on one unit.

Elaborating on the JF-17’s induction schedule, the Air chief said the PAF had acquired two planes on March 2. These two aircraft sailed the Pakistan’s skies on March 10 for the first time. He said the biggest challenge after assembling the jets was to make the fighter’s first public appearance on March 23 a great success.

Tanveer hoped the PAF would acquire six of these planes by the end of this year. He added Pakistan intended to go into formal production of Thunders at the PAC Kamra next year, whereby achieving the objective of 50 per cent share in the manufacturing of these platforms in Pakistan. He said the PAF looked forward to the production of 15 new Thunders produced in Pakistan next year.

The Air chief was sure the PAF would replace all its aging fleets of Mirages, F-7s (advanced versions of Mig-21) and A-5s (fighter-bombers) by 2015. He believed the PAF would acquire around 200 Thunders till that time, depending on the pocket of the country and the desire for the replacement.

He said the PAC would produce between 25 to 30 Thunders every year if required. He said Pakistan had the resources for financing 150 aircraft initially. Speaking high of the platform’s potential, Tanveer made no bones in claiming the Thunder would be a lethal weapon in the PAF’s inventory in the years to come. Believing it to be slightly superior to the existing fleet of F-16s (till refurbished by the US under the new contract), the Air Chief was optimistic about the JF-17’s capability even if the PAF did or didn’t have the Block 50-52 F-16s.

He said the PAF had a high-tech, all weather, day and night multi-role platform which would be able to carry a vast range of air-to-air, air-to-ground and maritime payload. He didn’t deny the fighter would have the nuclear delivery capability.

For the air-to-air combat, Tanveer said the platform would have a reasonable and sophisticated Beyond Visual Range (BVR) tracking and delivery system, fifth generation short-range missile system and state-of-the art avionics to support the weapon delivery. He said the Thunder would have a wide-range of standoff weaponry for air-to-ground missions, besides having complete prowess to support the Pakistan Navy in maritime operations.
Asked about the PAF’s plan to induct the Chinese J-10 in the fleet, he said the air force looked forward to it. However, he maintained that theposals to this effect were expected to be finalised by the mid of the next year. J-10, at present, didn’t have the configuration required by the PAF. He said the PAF people had already demanded a better radar and avionics on the J-10, and the pro
Speaking about the induction of the latest versions of F-16 Fighting Falcons in the PAF’s inventory, the Air Chief Marshal was hopeful the induction of used Block-50-52 state-of-the-art fighters would start this year and the process might be completed in 12 to 18 month’ time.
“The F-16s are believed to be delivered in the first and second quarter of 2010. As for the used aircrafts, those are expected to be delivered in the next 12-18 months, depending on the availability of the aircraft.”
He said the PAF planned to buy 18 new and 24 used F-16s, besides going for mid-life upgrades on the existing fleet. He believed the PAF would learn a great deal about the latest avionics and advanced weapon systems after acquiring the latest Fighting Falcons. He said the training to be provided to the PAF personnel in different departments by the US on the new F-16s would go a long way in improving the vision of the PAF engineers and pilots, which would be helpful in taking a leap forward in understanding the advanced air warfare.

He also explained how the PAF was working in advance on the air-to-air refueling project as the Thunders would become the first platforms, having this capability. He said the pilots and the air and ground crew was already at work to make the project a success.

M Abdullah

03-30-2007, 09:52 PM

KAMRA - With the induction of two JF-17 Thunder aircraft into Pakistan Air Force, Pakistan has joined the exclusive club of few countries that are manufacturing fighter aircraft.

This Joint Venture with China has not only reinforced Pakistan Air Force’s capability to defend country’s airspace but would also thwart any aggressive designs against Pakistan, if any.

Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed stated this while briefing local and international media about the latest induction of supersonic JF-17 Prototype-6 aircraft into PAF here on Friday. He was replying to a questioner that if Iran were attacked what would be the response of Pakistan.

The JF-17 fighter jet has jointly been designed and developed by the engineers, pilots and technical staff of China and Pakistan.

He said Pakistan has already received two JF-17 aircraft, which made their debut at national day parade on 23rd of this month.

The air chief said with the sanctions repeatedly imposed on Pakistan, Islamabad was able to look for alternative sources of air power. It went for a joint venture of the aircraft with Chinese company CATIC and signed an MOU in this respect.

He said today, JF-17 is state-of-the-art weapon system. Light weight, all weather, day/night multi-role aircraft, JF-17 has potent combat capabilities both for defensive and offensive notes.

Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood told a questioner that Pakistan would get six more fighter jets during the current year and would get 15 to 20 more aircraft next year. He said Pakistan would start serial production of the JF-17 Thunder aircraft from next year and would be able to replace all old aircraft by 2015.

He said the 4th Generation JF-17 Thunder aircraft could be upgraded into the 5th Generation jet and for that reason tests and evaluation is continuing. It could be made an alternative for the F-16 aircraft, he added.

He said talks for 18 new F-16s are going on with the US and hopefully Pakistan would get them by 2010. He said talks on 24 pre-used F-16 planes are also going on and within 12 to 18 months they would be delivered to Pakistan.

When asked about the US commitment on F-16s, he said US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates gave assurance to Pakistan that it won’t commit the mistake of leaving Pakistan again. The air chief, however, stated that if that would be the case PAF is looking for alternative countries including China and others.

When asked whether JF-17 aircraft would carry nuclear warheads, he replied that JF-17 is a very capable and potent platform. It has all the capabilities of the 4th generation aircraft and can be upgraded into the 5th generation fighter.

He said Pakistan is also looking forward to get two squadrons of J10 fighters from China, which have bigger platform, better radar system and carry more weapons.
On the question of export of JF-17 Thunder to other countries, the air chief said the fighter plane is a joint venture of Pakistan and China and after getting certification it can be exported to other countries at a very low cost.

On the issue of Russian engine of the aircraft, the air chief said the matter is between China and Russia and Pakistan has been assured that there would not be any impediment to the project.

He replied to a question that PAF has the capability to counter Indian planes, which have the capability to drop bombs from the range up to 25-30 kilometers above the ground.
He also hinted at starting mid life update programme for F-16s in Pakistan but said it would take some time.

The JF-17 design features include High maneuverability and BVR capability, effective air to ground capability, long range operational radius and endurance, excellent take-off and landing performance, weight and low cost, advance aerodynamic configurations, operational efficiency, large thrust and low SFC turbofan engine and service sealing of 16,500 metres

Nation (http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/mar-2007/31/index6.php)

I guess the ACM here is hinting at exactly what Mr. PShamim reported on Pakdef a few days back.

H Khan

03-30-2007, 10:12 PM

I heard ACM saying that PAF will eventually have 250 JF-17 and is looking into buying two sqd of FC-20/J-10.

FaisalK

03-30-2007, 10:59 PM

I guess the ACM here is hinting at exactly what Mr. PShamim reported on Pakdef a few days back.
Yea, pshamim also said that Pakistan and China have agreed to jointly develop new-generation stealth fighters. I guess this is the PAF's vague answer to the media with regards to next generation platforms, obviously they've been thinking hard and well.

zeeshan

03-30-2007, 11:24 PM

Assalamaoalukum,

did I miss some thing????

" that the US had delivered 12 refurbished F-16 jets, while 18 new"

when did this happen or is it a t ypo?

M Abdullah

03-30-2007, 11:31 PM

According to the urdu daily 'Jang':

1. Pakistan Air Force is increasing it's numerical strength from 320 planes to 400.

2. PAF will attain air to air refueling capability prior to formal induction of JF-17 aircrafts next year.

Jang (http://jang.com.pk/jang/mar2007-daily/31-03-2007/main.htm)

Munir

03-31-2007, 03:40 AM

2 not 12... typo

Munir

03-31-2007, 04:11 AM

>>>KAMRA: Air Chief Marshal Tanveer Mehmood has said the issue involving the engine of JF-17 Thunder aircraft has been resolved amicably and there is no immediate threat vis-a-vis availability of the Russian RD-93 engines for the aircraft.

Love the word amicably... Purely economics.

>>>While addressing the queries of media at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in the first ‘Meet the Press’ here Friday, the Air chief seemed confident that the joint venture would never be sabotaged, regarding the controversy attached to the supply of engines.

India tried to sabotage...

>>>Admitting India had been trying hard to dash the future prospects of the JF-17 Thunder, Tanveer made it clear that the Chinese authorities had given concrete assurances after having sorted the issue with the Russian counterparts. He maintained China was responsible for the supply of engines for it had entered into an agreement with the Russian firm, manufacturing the RD-93 engines.

Credibility of Pakdef. We knew this... The trick: China was responsible for the supply of engines for it had entered into an agreement with the Russian firm, manufacturing the RD-93 engines.

>>>Asked if Pakistan and China were looking for alternatives, he said such an initiative could be fruitful for both the producers as the project envisaged large number of combat aircraft production in the years to come. As aircrafts needed new engines twice in its operational service, the production of new engine could help smooth supply, besides making the project more cost-effective.

Could be fruitful? So the are busy with that aspect.

>>>Asked about his fears vis-a-vis the possibility of negative Russian intervention, Tanveer said: “Yes, it’s a Russian engine. And yes, the notion about the Indian endeavours is partly true. But one must understand that the engine is a contract between the Chinese and the Russian governments. We are not a party to that contract. Subsequently, the re-exporting of these engines to Pakistan is the issue between Pakistan and the Chinese industry. They have ensured us there would be no impediment in this regard. We hope this engine issue will cease to be an issue.”

China did play the ace on this. How else did high level Russians end up being unrealistic?

>>>Asked about the cost of a JF-17, the Air chief said the cost per piece was almost half of any of the compatible fourth generation fighter jet in the market. He said the advanced platforms cost anything between $45 million to $150 million. He believed the potential of the aircraft was much greater when compared to the cost on one unit.

Plane without engibe/avionis/weapons= 8 million USD. PAF version = 20-25 million USD (better radar/IFR/IRST).

>>>Elaborating on the JF-17’s induction schedule, the Air chief said the PAF had acquired two planes on March 2. These two aircraft sailed the Pakistan’s skies on March 10 for the first time. He said the biggest challenge after assembling the jets was to make the fighter’s first public appearance on March 23 a great success.

Great pr. Let us see next AFM edition...

>>>Tanveer hoped the PAF would acquire six of these planes by the end of this year. He added Pakistan intended to go into formal production of Thunders at the PAC Kamra next year, whereby achieving the objective of 50 per cent share in the manufacturing of these platforms in Pakistan. He said the PAF looked forward to the production of 15 new Thunders produced in Pakistan next year.

15-25... Depends on export orders.

>>>The Air chief was sure the PAF would replace all its aging fleets of Mirages, F-7s (advanced versions of Mig-21) and A-5s (fighter-bombers) by 2015. He believed the PAF would acquire around 200 Thunders till that time, depending on the pocket of the country and the desire for the replacement.

Old mirages first (costs). Then F7P, A5 and PG... Lots of training of personnel... And add to that Erieye and Chinese radar... Block 52 training... Indeed huge costs. But then you have one of the b est airforces (top 10) in the world. Full inhouse support of 50% of your fighterjets. The low tech fighterjet will have more options then the average high tech in the world...

>>>He said the PAC would produce between 25 to 30 Thunders every year if required. He said Pakistan had the resources for financing 150 aircraft initially. Speaking high of the platform’s potential, Tanveer made no bones in claiming the Thunder would be a lethal weapon in the PAF’s inventory in the years to come. Believing it to be slightly superior to the existing fleet of F-16s (till refurbished by the US under the new contract), the Air Chief was optimistic about the JF-17’s capability even if the PAF did or didn’t have the Block 50-52 F-16s.

See... Not 10-15... Journalism error.

>>>He said the PAF had a high-tech, all weather, day and night multi-role platform which would be able to carry a vast range of air-to-air, air-to-ground and maritime payload. He didn’t deny the fighter would have the nuclear delivery capability.

The weight of ordnance is the only probelm... (so the range)

>>>For the air-to-air combat, Tanveer said the platform would have a reasonable and sophisticated Beyond Visual Range (BVR) tracking and delivery system, fifth generation short-range missile system and state-of-the art avionics to support the weapon delivery. He said the Thunder would have a wide-range of standoff weaponry for air-to-ground missions, besides having complete prowess to support the Pakistan Navy in maritime operations.

Iris-T is the 5th gen. I bet there are some Harpoon ideas or exocet...

>>>Asked about the PAF’s plan to induct the Chinese J-10 in the fleet, he said the air force looked forward to it. However, he maintained that theposals to this effect were expected to be finalised by the mid of the next year. J-10, at present, didn’t have the configuration required by the PAF. He said the PAF people had already demanded a better radar and avionics on the J-10, and the pro

If demanding a better radar and avionics how come senior chinese posters are bashing JF17 over and over again? It was pretty clear that PAF pushed avionics level and certainly radar options. I bet with smaller teeth the J10 at the moments is less intresting then JF17. Only range, ordnance is the advantage when having J10.

>>>Speaking about the induction of the latest versions of F-16 Fighting Falcons in the PAF’s inventory, the Air Chief Marshal was hopeful the induction of used Block-50-52 state-of-the-art fighters would start this year and the process might be completed in 12 to 18 month’ time.

As long as it is a better schedule the the cobra... It took from 2002 tot 2007 to deliver 8 refurbished 30 year old cobra's... Shame. While they cannot keep stop bashing Pakistan over infiltration...

>>>“The F-16s are believed to be delivered in the first and second quarter of 2010. As for the used aircrafts, those are expected to be delivered in the next 12-18 months, depending on the availability of the aircraft.”

Looking forward to pictures of JF17 with F16... I thinbk we might be suprised to see JF17 being smaller then F16... :)

>>>He said the PAF planned to buy 18 new and 24 used F-16s, besides going for mid-life upgrades on the existing fleet. He believed the PAF would learn a great deal about the latest avionics and advanced weapon systems after acquiring the latest Fighting Falcons. He said the training to be provided to the PAF personnel in different departments by the US on the new F-16s would go a long way in improving the vision of the PAF engineers and pilots, which would be helpful in taking a leap forward in understanding the advanced air warfare.

F16 will be used as TOT and ideas... The last chance for absorbing technology...

>>>He also explained how the PAF was working in advance on the air-to-air refueling project as the Thunders would become the first platforms, having this capability. He said the pilots and the air and ground crew was already at work to make the project a success.

As fasr as I know they have contracted flight REfueling (UK)... I am intrested in the type of equipment. I prefer the mig35 system but looking at the number of sensors behind the nose cone that might be a problem. I think it is going to be the same system as Gripen (and F35).

Munir

03-31-2007, 04:55 AM

Well.. I still see some big smiles...

Munir

03-31-2007, 04:56 AM

and some more... Would love to have these as background for desktop...

Assad Khan

03-31-2007, 06:32 AM

Great images, thanks for posting, Munir!

-Asad

Sarmad

03-31-2007, 07:10 AM

2 not 12... typo

But how can this be a typo? Every other news website (Pakistani of course) is reporting the same number of delivered F-16s-twelve!

yasser

03-31-2007, 11:08 AM

FaisalK

03-31-2007, 11:55 AM

Great stuff. Cant help but feel that Tanveer is reaping the harvest that was sown by ACM Mushaf (Shaeed). Never heard him mention once the previous people who pushed hard for Erieye, air refuelers, F-16 and JF-17.
Well to be fair, ACM Tanvir is one of the many seniors who collectively pushed for PAF's modernization, it is not like you have a single propellant. Credit should be given to the PAF high command for keeping up with all the advancements in air combat in South Asia and the world.

Zain Abbass

03-31-2007, 12:06 PM

Yea, pshamim also said that Pakistan and China have agreed to jointly develop new-generation stealth fighters. I guess this is the PAF's vague answer to the media with regards to next generation platforms, obviously they've been thinking hard and well.

I thought that was more geared towards the J-XX and not the JF-17. I must say it is a great suprise but do we really have the stealth materials to be able to continue building the JF-17 at home?

Saeed Khan

03-31-2007, 12:33 PM

Great stuff. Cant help but feel that Tanveer is reaping the harvest that was sown by ACM Mushaf (Shaeed). Never heard him mention once the previous people who pushed hard for Erieye, air refuelers, F-16 and JF-17.

If I remember correctly, he did mention the names of all his seniors and their contributions in his March 23 interview; including ACM Mushaf Ali Mir (Shaheed).

Munir

03-31-2007, 01:15 PM

It is a collective goal. Don't blaime the man for doing his job perfectly... Mushaf has set the vision very well. He did split radar/avionics and design... I bet this chief will move the level even higher... If you feel that someone should be blaimed then think again what already has been accomplished. Here you have a cheap plane with almost everything and almost latest technology... Just think about how many nations are able to schieve that. We might thank China for lots of parts but the idea and management is partially Pakistani origin. Think again when you read that PAF is not satisfied with radart and avionics of J10... Think again that Pakistan has some ideas for the Chinese AWACS. I hope you did notice how fast Pakistan moved its capcity to build tanks, missiles, cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, subs... I don't wanna blaim people having inferiority complex but do wish some can think beyond basic level. It reminds me of some arrogance of Louis van Gaal (Dutch soccer coach)... He said once... Either I am extremely smart or you all are extremely stupid.

Munir.

FaisalK

03-31-2007, 01:31 PM

Indeed. Pakistan has made massive strides when one thinks about it, and it has pretty ambitious ideas in the future - such as integration of diverse systems without foreign help. When the ACM said that the J-10's avionics, radar, etc, are not satisfactory and that (reportedly) Western alternatives will be sought - he just set the line for complex integration. I doubt the European providers would want China seeing their technology, and I doubt China would want Europe seeing the J-10 - so Pakistan is left in the middle to put two and two together. If the goal is to make J-10 a 4.5 generation fighter (and by default superior to F-16 Block 52+ & MLU3), then I imagine very expensive and advanced systems will be sought from Europe.

Just imagine the complexity of integrating say avionics, radar, ECM/EW and weapon-systems meant for Rafale, Eurofighter and Gripen onto J-10 without the help of Chinese or European engineers on Pakistani soil. On top of this, somehow our Pakistani journalists got the idea of putting 5th generation and PAF in the same sentence, obviously the ACM must have said something to influence them.

Sarmad

03-31-2007, 01:42 PM

FaisalK

03-31-2007, 02:44 PM

From this news article (http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=6854):

For the air-to-air combat, Tanveer said the platform would have a reasonable and sophisticated Beyond Visual Range (BVR) tracking and delivery system, fifth generation short-range missile system and state-of-the art avionics to support the weapon delivery. He said the Thunder would have a wide-range of standoff weaponry for air-to-ground missions, besides having complete prowess to support the Pakistan Navy in maritime operations.
Potential 5th Generation short-range missile options include A-Darter, IRIS-T & AIM-132 ASRAAM. I reckon they'll seek an HMS/D system from one of Denel and BAe to tie in with the WVRAAM.

Existing systems include:

Denel Guardian HMD for Gripen (should be compatible with A-Darter)
BAe Cobra HMD for Gripen - compatible with IRIS-T and AIM-132

Munir

03-31-2007, 03:00 PM

I have a feeling that it is Iris-T with Cobra HMD.

http://www.gripen.hu/images/18.52c6b410142c0732e7fff1563/050110_HMD.jpg

M S Baig

03-31-2007, 06:19 PM

no doubt nice images.

JunaidNasir

03-31-2007, 09:54 PM

PAF clarifies news item

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=49345

By our correspondent

LAHORE: With reference to the news item titled, ‘JF-17 Engine row resolved, Air Chief,’ published in Daily The News on March 31, 2007, Pakistan Air Force clarifies that the statement of Air Chief given in press conference has been misinterpreted. This is the newspaper’s perception. The PAF’s position on the issue remains unchanged.

M Abdullah

04-01-2007, 12:36 AM

Check the patch on the pilots.

FaisalK

04-01-2007, 01:26 AM

Check the patch on the pilots.
By their rank insignia, both look like Wing Commanders.

Munir

04-01-2007, 04:09 AM

That person on the right is a former F16 pilot. I might have some pics...

Anyway... Looking at the size of the intake... What would happen if we add another RD93 and internal bay? I would go for V-shape rudder.

timmy007

04-02-2007, 09:31 PM

That person on the right is a former F16 pilot. I might have some pics...

Its Group Captain Amin from No.9 Sqdn :)
And Munir bhai your inbox is full...kindly empty some messages!

Munir

04-03-2007, 07:47 AM

Did that! Thanks for message.

kind regards.

zeeshan

04-19-2007, 10:13 PM

Pakistan to export JF-17 thunder aircraft
MUSHTAQ GHUMMAN
CHENGDU (April 20 2007): Pakistan announced on Thursday that it would start export of JF-17 thunder aircraft jointly with China after its planned production in 2008. "Pakistan would recover its investment through third countries sale as joint sale and marketing with China," says an official statement issued by the Pakistani officials here after the visit of Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz.

The prime minister inspected new manufactured aircraft and visited manufacturing facilities and appreciated China for making unprecedented progress in defence production.

The statement also said that 16 aircraft planned, eight to be inducted by each side. Two aircraft arrived in Pakistan in March and participated in National Day Parade and two planned to arrive in Pakistan in July and four in December 2007 as training of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra, manpower is in progress in China.

Infrastructure at PAC along with various other facilities is planned to be completed by end of 2007. Pakistan would be able to build up its own aviation industry a big step forward in the field of indigenisation and self-reliance. Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz also inaugurated a new Consulate General building here, the third in China after Shanghai and Hong Kong, saying it will bolster co-operation between the two countries in all fields.

The complex in Sichuan province will cover the fast emerging parts of Western China and neighbouring provinces. Chengdu is home to the Joint Sino-Pak venture of JF-17, multi-role aircraft manufacturing plant and several other high-tech industries.

The prime minister, who is on a six-day visit to China, termed the opening of the Consulate General as another major milestone in the development of Pak-China relations.

He said Pakistan and China were determined to reinforce their exemplary friendship by building strong partnership in economic and trade fields, adding Pakistan was proud of its friendship with China. Shaukat Aziz said China is Pakistan's most trusted friend, good neighbour and good partner and expressed determination to further strengthen this friendship and take this partnership to new heights.

He said Sichuan and Punjab were "sister provinces" as the Chinese province lies in a region that extends up to Pakistan. He described the province as fast becoming another showcase of development of China's western region.

Foreign Affairs Assistant Minister Cui Tiankai termed it a memorable day in Pak-China multi-dimensional relations, saying a consulate will serve as a bridge to link the two communities.

While addressing the dinner hosted by the Sichuan governor, he said that after the implementation of FTA would reach $15 billion. He said the products to be manufactured in special economic zone would not sold locally but also exported to various countries, including Middle East.

M Abdullah

04-20-2007, 01:32 AM

CHENGDU, April 19: Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz on Thursday said the serial production of JF-17 Thunder aircraft next year would strengthen Pakistan’s defence and the country would recover investment made on the project by selling the aircraft.

Avionics testing and weapon qualification sub-phases will be completed by the end of 2007, to be followed by weapons evaluation phase planned in Pakistan. Sixteen aircraft to be produced next year will be inducted (eight each) in Pakistan and China forces. Two aircraft are planned to arrive in Pakistan in July and four in December 2007.

Prime Minister Aziz said JF-17 was “Pakistan’s proud programme and a unique example of cooperation and friendship between the two countries”. The premier was in Sichuan, Western province of China, on the second leg of his six-day visit to a country he described as an “all-weather friend and a strategic partner”.

The important aspect of the project is that training of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex personnel is currently in progress in China and infrastructure at the PAC along with other related activities is planned to be completed in Pakistan by the year-end. Officials said the project would “provide Pakistan resilience against sanctions”.Mr Aziz said the project was crucial for Pakistan in the sense that it would develop its aviation industry and increase its self-reliance in the field of defence.

Dawn (http://dawn.com/2007/04/20/top7.htm)

M Abdullah

04-20-2007, 12:53 PM

Any ideas as to what exactly is being done to the JF-17 here?

pshamim

04-20-2007, 01:53 PM

According to the Chines website where these pictures came from, these are the early prototypes which may eventually be disassembled or have already been disassembled.
Wallah Alam?

adeem

04-20-2007, 03:30 PM

Any ideas as to what exactly is being done to the JF-17 here?

Disassembled? Wouldn't that be very unusual? Most of the time prototypes are kept in service to test modifications and further equipment integrations. After their useful life they end up in museums. The prototypes, besides the standard avionics fit, have a lot of telemtry equipment and this could be installation of some of that equipment. So many access panels are open that it could also be troubleshooting of some sort. The electrical buses are a pain to troubleshoot if they develop a fault.

pshamim

04-20-2007, 03:59 PM

I said what Chinese web site stated. But I tend to agree with you. This particulat proto was used for design, development and testing and and may be used in future as well.

Munir

04-20-2007, 05:30 PM

business recorder

Pakistan to export JF-17 thunder aircraft
MUSHTAQ GHUMMAN
CHENGDU (April 20 2007): Pakistan announced on Thursday that it would start export of JF-17 thunder aircraft jointly with China after its planned production in 2008. "Pakistan would recover its investment through third countries sale as joint sale and marketing with China," says an official statement issued by the Pakistani officials here after the visit of Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz.

The prime minister inspected new manufactured aircraft and visited manufacturing facilities and appreciated China for making unprecedented progress in defence production.

The statement also said that 16 aircraft planned, eight to be inducted by each side. Two aircraft arrived in Pakistan in March and participated in National Day Parade and two planned to arrive in Pakistan in July and four in December 2007 as training of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra, manpower is in progress in China.

Infrastructure at PAC along with various other facilities is planned to be completed by end of 2007. Pakistan would be able to build up its own aviation industry a big step forward in the field of indigenisation and self-reliance. Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz also inaugurated a new Consulate General building here, the third in China after Shanghai and Hong Kong, saying it will bolster co-operation between the two countries in all fields.

The complex in Sichuan province will cover the fast emerging parts of Western China and neighbouring provinces. Chengdu is home to the Joint Sino-Pak venture of JF-17, multi-role aircraft manufacturing plant and several other high-tech industries.

The prime minister, who is on a six-day visit to China, termed the opening of the Consulate General as another major milestone in the development of Pak-China relations.

He said Pakistan and China were determined to reinforce their exemplary friendship by building strong partnership in economic and trade fields, adding Pakistan was proud of its friendship with China. Shaukat Aziz said China is Pakistan's most trusted friend, good neighbour and good partner and expressed determination to further strengthen this friendship and take this partnership to new heights.

He said Sichuan and Punjab were "sister provinces" as the Chinese province lies in a region that extends up to Pakistan. He described the province as fast becoming another showcase of development of China's western region.

Foreign Affairs Assistant Minister Cui Tiankai termed it a memorable day in Pak-China multi-dimensional relations, saying a consulate will serve as a bridge to link the two communities.

While addressing the dinner hosted by the Sichuan governor, he said that after the implementation of FTA would reach $15 billion. He said the products to be manufactured in special economic zone would not sold locally but also exported to various countries, including Middle East.

AArshad

04-23-2007, 02:45 PM

Azerbaijan to buy JF-17 multirole fighters from Pakistan

23 April 2007 [14:14] - Today.Az

Azerbaijan Defense Minister Safar Abiyev and Defense Industry Minister Yavar Jamalov are scheduled to make an official visit to Pakistan.

The meetings during the visit are to cover cooperation between Azerbaijani and Pakistan in defense industry, APA reports.

Azerbaijani Embassy in Pakistan and Foreign Ministries of the two countries are preparing for the visit.

Safar Abiyev and Yavar Jamalov are said to hold several official meetings in the Pakistani Defense Ministry. Defense Industry Minister Jamalov will talk with the Secretary of Pakistan Defense Ministry Shaig Siddig Termidi on cooperation prospects.

During attending the IDEAS international military exhibition in Pakistan, Azerbaijan showed interest to JF-17 multirole fighters as well as tanks and small arms made in Pakistan.

URL: http://www.today.az/news/business/39829.html

Got this news from a friend.....can someone with more detailed news elaborate on this issue.

Munir

04-23-2007, 04:49 PM

Though news for Indians. Here we have a fighterjet developed by an airforce and build by Chinese being a success even before introduction. There we see a failed product that is not even accepted by the original (and one and only) customer.

pshamim

04-23-2007, 04:53 PM

Though a good news showing the confidence in this aircraft by others. One question. When and how Pakistan will sell to other countries when it requires to fill its huge requirement first?

A Khan

04-23-2007, 05:03 PM

Though a good news showing the confidence in this aircraft by others. One question. When and how Pakistan will sell to other countries when it requires to fill its huge requirement first?

Just guessing here: Perhaps opening op another production line in a few years time? Or production in China for the export batches. IF the Azeri's are coming in for negotiations now, and others who have shown interest in the project in the past also start showing serious interest leading towards negotiaions, then inshallah, by the time the contracts are signed, we will know the money is there and another production line could be afforded. If it takes a few years to finalise the deal(s) then we should or the chinese have the extra capacity tp produce those planes within a reasonable timeframe. (just think about when we are getting our F-16s how long that takes) specially the Chinese must have considered this aspect as it has always been an "export-oriented" product for them.

Overall a VERY GOOD NEWS :) now just cant for the Saudi tank deal to be finalised!

Rauf

04-23-2007, 05:29 PM

Only two nations have had access to FC-1, Pak and China, when did Azerbaijan AF tested the FC-1 to make a decision to purchase them ? or are they buying it without testing and evaluating the jet ?

FaisalK

04-23-2007, 05:31 PM

Though a good news showing the confidence in this aircraft by others. One question. When and how Pakistan will sell to other countries when it requires to fill its huge requirement first?
I think China will also have a production line for JF-17 geared primarily for export.

Media has issues with defence stuff, I think Azerbaijan is just saying that it will soon release a tender for new fighters and JF-17 is on the evaluation list. However, I do not think it is far fetched to believe that other air forces got a chance to see JF-17 before its induction in PAF - it is an export fighter after all.

zia ul haq

04-24-2007, 12:19 AM

Asalamo-a-laikum.

Hold on fellas!!! They are interested in it. They have not bought it yet, but I admit it is good news they are even mentioning it.

As for the Al-Khalid I can tell you they are interested in it as well, but time will tell.

vikasrehman

04-24-2007, 08:12 AM

However, I do not think it is far fetched to believe that other air forces got a chance to see JF-17 before its induction in PAF - it is an export fighter after all.

Not at all.
Remember its (PT-01) first official flight and how many international delegates were there. So a lot of people who might have an interest have already seen it, and anyone with greater interest is likely to be offered a lot more access.

H Khan

04-25-2007, 03:55 PM

Confirmed now that PAF has ordered SD-10 missiles numbering in hundreds.

M Abdullah

04-25-2007, 04:03 PM

Any news about which planes will they be integrating this missile with?

Sarmad

04-25-2007, 04:14 PM

Probably JF-17s and F-7s.

Fahad L

04-25-2007, 04:16 PM

Obviously, SD-10 will be integrated with Jf-17, F-20 and Mirages and may be F7pg.Its a good news,shows that soon we will have our Jf-17 armed with BVR.

Munir

04-25-2007, 05:54 PM

Confirmed now that PAF has ordered SD-10 missiles numbering in hundreds.

delivering schedule? A few hundred isn't that much. Probably we will see them like the plane batches. So the first few hundreds will be probably linked to the 51 JF17's with Chinese avionics. I think it should be around 400-500 missiles...

Hafeez

04-25-2007, 07:06 PM

Perhaps this is a little out of line here on this thread (Mods move it if so) but i think it's about time we disclose whatever BVR darter capability we have. I mean after having SD-10 and AIM-120 C-5 it doesn't make much sense to hide the R-darter or T-darter capability(if it exists that is). Even though R-darter has been retired by South Africa i would rather PAF improve upon it and have three tiered missile inventory.
1)Short Range 5th generation missile in the form of A-darter for JF-17s and J-10s (AIM-9X or IRIS-T for F-16s when available of feasible).
2)Darter based medium range with a better seeker and ECM (perhaps a passive IR seeker like MICA-IR)
3)AIM-120 and SD-10 for long range engagements.

Disclaimer:
ofcourse all of the above is my "wish list" and does not in anyway represents PAF's philosphy :D

P.S: If i am not wrong Egyptians did get a chance to have a look at FC-1s at the time of last Zuhai. CAC was all ready for a public display for J-10 and FC-1 ( refer to the pictures of both aircrafts together) but their request was shot down by PLAAF. Instead the display was held at a nearby airbase where suposedly some "middle eastern" country's abassador and officials were guests. Then When Hossani Mubarak went to Russia FC-1 was again mentioned in competetion with Mig-29 for Egyptian air force.

Ahsan786

04-25-2007, 09:11 PM

Confirmed now that PAF has ordered SD-10 missiles numbering in hundreds.

Order? What about transfer of technology, since reportedly it is a joint venture. Now that confirmation is more important. ;)

Murad

04-26-2007, 01:10 AM

.............What about transfer of technology, since reportedly it is a joint venture. ................

Ahsan, Reportedly according to whom? SD-10/PL-12 is not a joint venture between Pakistan and China, it has Russian input and possibly an Israeli connection.

.......... A few hundred isn't that much. ..............So the first few hundreds will be probably linked to the 51 JF17's.............should be around 400-500 missiles...

Munir, that's almost 10 missiles per aircraft. By the same ratio, Pakistan would need to stock over 2000 SD-10 (or other BVRAAMs) for JF-17 alone. I suspect that number is too high, at most we probably need half that given the order for 500 AMRAAMs for a 100 ro so F-16. There is no need to stock so many missiles. Does anyone know what kind of considerations are taken into account when deciding what number to order?

................. When Hossani Mubarak went to Russia FC-1 was again mentioned in competetion with Mig-29 for Egyptian air force.........

If JF-17/FC-1 is sold to Egypt, one would expect it to go with WS-13. Its one thing for the Russians to release RD-93 for Pakistan where it is not expecting to sell MiG-29s but it is against their interest to let be exported to a third country where is actively trying to compete with RD-93 equipped MiG-29.

faraz

04-26-2007, 03:00 AM

Since China is making them, a few hundred will probably be enough initially. We can always get more from them in case the need arises. They probably have a shelf life do they not?

Munir

04-26-2007, 03:05 AM

Agreed mr Murad.

About not allowed to compete with Mig29. I think the Russians are shooting in their own feets. ASAP the chinese engine will replace the RD93 and then it is all over. Then the JF17 will surely compete and specially where they already have mig29. Many arab nations are still linked to russia for getting Flankers and Fulcrums but that will end one day. Either the Russians will start building more advanced avionics or they become real cheap or they are out. It is like France. Who is intrested in Mirages these days? Costs... Costs... and Costs....

Hafeez

04-26-2007, 03:30 AM

One problem could be that if WS-13 is actually nothing more than an imprved RD-93 given to China to locally produce on the promise they will not use it to compete with Russian hardware.... The news report that mentioned WS-13 also mentioned Chinese personal being trained by Russians and lots of parts from Rd-93 being used on WS-13.

osman

04-26-2007, 11:58 AM

I guess its great news.
http://www.kommersant.com/p762182/deal_fighter_jets_Pakistan/

Chinese Fighter Jets to Reach Pakistan
Russia has officially sanctioned China to re-export aircraft engines to Pakistan. The permit revives the chance of supplying 150 China’s JF-17 fighter jets to Pakistan and the $238-million contract for delivering aircraft engines from Russia with the optional extension to $3.75 billion. In president’s administration, they don’t think deliveries will cloud military and engineering cooperation of Russia and India, which budget is estimated at $1.5 billion a year.
It was a source with Russia’s government that leaked information about Russia’s-Chinese agreement for joint assembly of JF-17 fighter jets with RD-93 engines of Klimov works’ design (made by Chernyshev works) and for selling the aircraft to third countries – Pakistan and a few states of South-East Asia and Africa. “The standing of China is traditionally very strong” there, the source said.

President Vladimir Putin personally supervised the deal and inked sanctioning documents, representatives of president’s administration specified. The deal was backed up by all parties concerned – Defense Ministry, Federal Industry Agency and Rosoboronexport, which is the state exporter of weapons.

But the sanction doesn’t mean adding Pakistan to the list of states of direct military and technical cooperation with Russia. It is rather the matter of a single contract.

Under the contract with China, Pakistan will get 150 JF-17 Thunder (FC-1) fighter jets worth $2.3 billion overall. In 2005, Rosoboronexport made a $238-million contract with China to deliver for FC-1s a hundred RD-93 engines, spares to them and to provide maintenance. Beijing is ready to buy up to 1,000 engines, should they be upgraded for thrust augmentation. In this case, the aggregate budget of contract will step up to $3.75 billion.
www.kommersant.

pshamim

04-26-2007, 01:33 PM

Great news for PAF and Pakistan. No more speculation and rumors should end now. However, the news will not make Indians happy. Many egos are going to get hurt.

ZuhairAli

04-26-2007, 04:44 PM

I am still not 100 percent satisfied since russians have a reputation of back tracking on their earlier statements. on the other hand i think that pakistan should press china for quicker development of the indigenous engine.

pshamim

04-26-2007, 06:18 PM

News says that China will buy 1000 RD-93. Any ideas as to why that large numbers are being bouhjt.

Boota

04-26-2007, 06:25 PM

I bet the proverbial "brown envelope" was handed to the Russian PM during his recent trip to Pakistan for onward delivery to Putin. He is retiring soon and needs all the help he can get.;)

Murad

04-27-2007, 02:04 AM

News says that China will buy 1000 RD-93. Any ideas as to why that large numbers are being bouhjt.

I hope it means that China is ready to commit to buying a few hundred JF-17s, which would be great as it would bring unit price down. But does that also mean that WS-13 is not quite ready yet?

ehtisham

04-27-2007, 12:54 PM

Royal Brunei Air Force chief(?) today visited PAF Minhas and PAC kamra. PTV news is showing the video of him visiting the JF-17 factory and inspecting the plane/plane's cockpit. Guide was one of the test pilots.. guess PAF is aggressively marketing the plane.

adeem

04-30-2007, 03:55 PM

Some JF-17 (couple of them show probably 1/48 scale model) pictures that I think I haven't seen before. However if they have been posted earlier, my apologies.

pshamim

04-30-2007, 04:48 PM

mHussain

05-02-2007, 07:25 PM

Some more info on the change of heart by the Russian to supply the RD-93 to Pakistan.

Decision to allow the reexport of RD-93 to Pakistan was made personally by President Putin who intervened in the matter. Though the quantities were not given, the deal is worth between $283 to $375 Million. Also, Russians allowed reexport of RD-93 on JF-17 to South Eastern and African countries.

However, Russia's permission does not mean that Pakistan will be included in the list of countries with whom Russian have military technical cooperation.

If Russians improve the RD-93 any further, China may increase the order for RD-93 to 1000.

Wonder where this leaves the Tai Shan WS-13 now.

Shamim bhai, I would just like to point out that where Russia is concerned, news often gets really bloated. I'd take the news of 1000 RD-93s with a pinch of salt. My feeling is that the WS-13 could be already ready and going through pre-production testing. However, I don't really have any inside information on it.

Zarrar

05-03-2007, 12:41 AM

There might be another angle to it all .... maybe WS 13 is nearing completion ... and the Russians being able to see the writing on the wall have announced lifting of any constraints just to save their export order (just like US offered us F-16 once they realized we would be able to get similar stuff from China anyways)?

any official (or otherwise) update on WS 13 ??

pshamim

05-05-2007, 03:05 PM

Here is another news item in Russian Press regarding the JF-17 export to Pakistan and talk of 1000 more engines import of the same by China if the RD-93 is further upgraded. I do not know where this deal leaves the WS-13.

www.aviaport.ru/digest/2007/04/26/119988.html (http://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2007/04/26/119988.html)

pshamim

05-05-2007, 03:12 PM

Sorry for the Garbled Russian laced post. Here is a cleaner copy.

. CHINESE FIGHTER CALCULATIONS TO PAKISTAN
Russia allowed the re-export of its jet

Russia formally authorized the export to China of Russian aircraft to Pakistan. Permission razmorazhivaet to supply 150 Chinese JF-17 fighters to Pakistan and a contract to supply engines from Russia in the amount of $ 238 million. with the prospect of up to $ 3.75 billion The administration of President assured that supply to Pakistan will not have a negative influence on military-technical cooperation with India, Russia, which was valued at $ 1.5 billion per annum.

The fact that Russia has agreed with China to jointly build JF-17 fighters in the assembly engines RD-93 of them factory. Klimova (serially produced by the plant. St) and the sale of these aircraft to a third country, mother to the source in the Russian government. According to him, we are talking about Pakistan and some countries in Southeast Asia and Africa, where "the Chinese traditionally very strong position." "Sdelku with Chinese personally supervised Vladimir Putin, a signatory to the permissive documents, reported Ъ during the administration of President .- Received agreement of all parties concerned, including the Defense Ministry, Rosproma and Rosoboroneksporta." But approval does not mean that Pakistan will be included in the list of countries which leads directly to Russia military cooperation. This is only one contract.

Under an agreement with China, Pakistan must get 150 fighter JF-17 Thunder (FC - 1) worth $ 2.3 billion In 2005 FGUP Rosoboronexport signed a contract with China for the supply of FC - 1 hundred RD-93 engines, spare parts for them and maintenance by $ 238 million. Beijing is ready to buy up to 1000 engines if they are to be upgraded with increased traction. In this case, the total value of the contract is $ 3.75 billion The original contract for the supply for China RD-93 specifically prohibit the re-export engines to third countries. But even at the Air Dzhuhae (China) in November 2006, development director of the Chinese Aerospace Corporation CATIC Lee Pey said that the RD-93 "will be re-exported."

The first shipment of 15 engines were sent from Russia at the end of 2006. In early March, two Chinese fighter JF-17 Thunder with Russian engines arrived in Pakistan. Further supply motors plant performs them. St. The plant was waiting permission to re-export that in mid-May to send the first batch party.

Previously, experts assumed that the decision to re-export could lead to the discontent of India, with which Russia has an intergovernmental agreement on nepostavke Islamabad military equipment. A military-technical cooperation with India, Russia has more than $ 1.5 billion per annum. Adviser to the press Indian embassy in Moscow Romesh Chandra said yesterday Ъ that at the embassy for permission to re-export the "unknown". However, the administration of President RF argue that the deal with China does not violate the interests of New Delhi : "India buys planes in Russia not just the next generation, a generation of" four plus. " The fighter aircraft JF-17 is a third generation actually dopotopnaya machines. " Furthermore, for example, another supplier of arms to India-France successfully sells military equipment to Pakistan. The structure of France for a decade Pakistan took third place with € 2,085 billion

www.aviaport.ru/digest/2007/04/26/119988.html