Kargil Conflict - II

[Usman Shabbir]

Old thread is here: http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?t=8167

This thread is to discuss the military aspects of Kargil conflict. Occasional political comments within a post to illustrate/argue environment surrounding the conflict are permitted. To discuss the pure political aspects of the conflict use the Politics Forum.

[Jungen-Loenen]

Map shows the whole Op sector, and the second scan shows the deployment and the gaps of 121 Indep Inf Bde, which was the sole defender!!

[Jungen-Loenen]

1)Indian artillery build-up!
2)155 mm shell direct hit on Tiger Hill

[Jungen-Loenen]

1) Pakistan's artillery deployment!
2)Pakistan's holding and infiltration formations during the conflict! (13 POK = 13 AK)

[Rafaqat]

What is our designation for the tiger hill ? only indians call it tiger hill right ?

On a slightly different note ... i was reading somethign about operations Gibralter and grand slam. It was mentioned that change in command, the delay gave indians opportunity to shore up their defences of Akhnur and re-inforce the munawwar gap.

I knw where Akhnur is but where exactly is Munawwar gap ?

Rafaqat

[SSAAD]

1) Pakistan's artillery deployment!
2)Pakistan's holding and infiltration formations during the conflict! (13 POK = 13 AK)

Here is the Indian/Pakistan orbat from a Pakistani source:

Pakistani orbat at Kargil was as follows:

HQ FCNA
323 Bde
62 Bde (incl. 1 wing CAF)
80 Bde
Arty FCNA
1 Reserve Bn

Re-enforcements on the Pakistani side during the Kargil conflict included the following from June onwards:

28 Bde
1 Cdo Bn Less 2 Coys (SSG)
1 wing FC (paramilitary)

Indian units:

3 Inf Div
70 Bde (5 bns)
102 Bde (3 Bns)
114 Bde (5 bns)
121 Bde (5 bns)
109 Bde (4 Bns)
3 Arty Bde [7 Fd and 1 Med regt(s)]
28 Arty Bde (not full strength)
Ladakh Scouts (17 Companies)

Additional units inducted from May onwards:

8 Mtn Div (less 1 Bde)
69 Bde
79 Mtn Bde
4 Para
23 Misc. Infantry units
2 ATGM units
7 Med Regt(s) - inducted Mid May
6 Med Regt(s) - inducted June
1 MBRL Bty - May

[Jungen-Loenen]

What is our designation for the tiger hill ? only indians call it tiger hill right ?

On a slightly different note ... i was reading somethign about operations Gibralter and grand slam. It was mentioned that change in command, the delay gave indians opportunity to shore up their defences of Akhnur and re-inforce the munawwar gap.

I knw where Akhnur is but where exactly is Munawwar gap ?

Rafaqat

Hills in such areas have no names, they r represented by numbers. Tiger Hill was originally called Pt 5100. The name was given by the Indians. its importance lies in two factors. First, is that, the person on top of it can have a 20-30 km view over all the adjoining area, second, if a pakistani is up there, then he can see their Drass cantt, and if an indian is there, then he can clearly see Gultari Cantt !

[M Abdullah]

So who controls Tiger hill as of now?

[Jungen-Loenen]

So who controls Tiger hill as of now?
The Indians control it as it is on their side of LOC!

[Omar Sheikh]

what was the official casualty figures on both sides?

[A Khan]

‘Nawaz wanted to use me in Kargil withdrawal’: Musharraf
Updated at 2300 PST
ISLAMABAD: President Gen Pervez Musharraf said Saturday that Nawaz Sharif wanted to use him (Pervez) in his (Nawaz’s) decision for the withdrawal of forces from Kargil.

Addressing at the launching ceremony of ‘Sab sey pehley Pakistan’---Urdu version of his English-language autobiography "In the Line of Fire," here, he said Raja Zafarul Haq and Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain put the maximum opposition to army withdrawal.

Gen Musharraf said that on July 2, 2006, at meeting of cabinet’s defense committee, he briefed Mian Nawaz Sharif for an hour and clarified that Pakistan is militarily impregnable.

However, when Mian Nawaz Sharif kept on asking about the army retraction from Kargil fronts, he said to Mian Nawaz Sharif, “it would be your political decision.”


Musharraf denies suggesting ceasefire in Kargil

Updated at 1730 PST
ISLAMABAD: President Musharraf said Saturday that on any occasion, he never told Nawaz Sharif to withdraw forces from Kargil.

While talking at Geo News programme ‘Jababdeh’, he denied General Zinni’s remark that it was he who brought Nawaz Sharif round to ceasefire in Kargil.

Responding a query regarding the opposition parties’s to suggest the name for the appointment of chief election commissioner, the president said that the opposition parties had been asked the names for the appointment of election commissioner; however, no names have so far been given.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp#11656

[AGKhan]

what was the official casualty figures on both sides?


recently musharaff updated his indian version of his book with what was said to be the official figures - IIRC he gave 357 as the official list of casualities. broken up into 157 during the fighting and 'approximately 200' killed while withdrawaing. This has not been reported widely but i posted the report in the older kargil thread

OTOH the indians listed 540 killed from their side.

J-L thanks for the scans - now i have to sit and compare the indian orbats with the ones given by syed. This should be an interesting exercise.

[AGKhan]

Jungen Loenen, I just read the scan you posted in the other thread on the battle in which Karnal sher khan was killed. thanks for that. the accompanying picture was also quite helpful. I wish we had our own official history that woudl give more details of the battle. For one I would like to know who were the other jawans who became shaheed along with sher khan. too often the ranks get ignored.

also the book says 20 people. i seem to remember an earlier account that said the attack was mounted only by eight soldiers. I cant find that account now however.

[Jungen-Loenen]

Jungen Loenen, I just read the scan you posted in the other thread on the battle in which Karnal sher khan was killed. thanks for that. the accompanying picture was also quite helpful. I wish we had our own official history that woudl give more details of the battle. For one I would like to know who were the other jawans who became shaheed along with sher khan. too often the ranks get ignored.

also the book says 20 people. i seem to remember an earlier account that said the attack was mounted only by eight soldiers. I cant find that account now however.

First of all abt the casualties, those listed by Mushi r completely false, really. I sugest u meet up with any infantry Capt or Maj, who were attached with the NLI units, who fought there as such, these ppl will tell u wht really happened there. The cant be sure abt casualties, but they r sure of one thing: Entire NLI units became combat ineffective, meaning their combat strength vanished, during thee operations. SSG ppl also say they suffered some of the heaviest casualties they have suffered so far fighting.
Another bitter reality is that we refused to claim most of our shaheed jawans. The wounded, were lifted back by their own buddies, but the shaheed, we refused to claim them as tht would have meant tht we have sent soldiers from our side. Not caliming them, we tried to show the world tht we were not involved in this conflict. Hence our shaheed , remained buried on the kargil hills. I have pics of such scenes, where our shaheed jawans, in khakis, are being buried on the peaks by the indians.
The first small counter attack, by a weak platoon, was launched by the SSG, then second attack was the real thing in which both the officers lead the attack! One got SJ, the other got NH!
One thing is for sure: Our soldiers went there to stay permananlty, this they say themself k no power on earth could have dislodged them from those peaks and heights had they remained in their positions. Two factors contributed to their casualties. One was tht the indians interdiction of their supply routes, so tht our soldiers didnt get any supply of rations or ammo, second was the open withdrawl and heavy artillery bombardment on them. These 2 things caused the maximum casualties!

[Noman Habib]

323,62 and 82 are all deployed brigades and thinning out these formation for offensive was very limited.There was no built up of forces on Pakistan side seen before conflict.Winter dumping of Rations and ammunition of an infantry battalion would not go unnoticed as long trail of mules could be seen from across the border or Indian sources inside our territory could have reported the built up therefore the assertion of going to stay permanently does not seems to be the true.This would have required huge logistical built up.
The second point of countless casualties is false.Pakistan army did not go in khaki as claimed by one of our learned member. The battle ineffectiveness of NLI is wrong.The interdiction of supplies is part of any war and it is not such a big deal and secondly artillery is not an effective interdiction weapon in mountains.It has harassing effect alright but no more than that.
The third point the casualties during the withdrawal yes though Indian PM had committed cease fire during the process but his Army ignored it completely which speaks there frustration because of the pain and humiliation they suffered at the hands of few thousand Pakistanis.

[Jungen-Loenen]

323,62 and 82 are all deployed brigades and thinning out these formation for offensive was very limited.There was no built up of forces on Pakistan side seen before conflict.Winter dumping of Rations and ammunition of an infantry battalion would not go unnoticed as long trail of mules could be seen from across the border or Indian sources inside our territory could have reported the built up therefore the assertion of going to stay permanently does not seems to be the true.This would have required huge logistical built up.
The second point of countless casualties is false.Pakistan army did not go in khaki as claimed by one of our learned member from across the border.The battle ineffectiveness of NLI is wrong.The interdiction of supplies is part of any war and it is not such a big deal and secondly artillery is not an effective interdiction weapon in mountains.It has harassing effect alright but no more than that.
The third point the casualties during the withdrawal yes though Indian PM had committed cease fire during the process but his Army ignored it completely which speaks there frustration because of the pain and humiliation they suffered at the hands of few thousand Pakistanis.

Respected Mr Noman Habib, assuming tht i am the learned member u r referring to, let em tell u, i am not from across the border! Half of my family is serving or has served in Pakistan Army. I do think k everyone has a right for an independent opinion, even a Pakistani like me! Also, if someone says some truth, its not right k u label him someone from across the border straightaway! It is such type of things which stop us from learning something from our past mistakes! No one here has the right to call anyone, anyone whtever he likes. We are here for discussion, so let us discuss something, instead of labelling others from across the border!
Second, for this operation, the existing brigades were strongly re-inforced, with NLI units added to bolster their offensive and holding power should indians try to pursuit us into our territory! Refer to the scans above, which will give u some picture!
U r right, winter dumping des not go unnoticed, thts y their review commision severely critisized RAW and IB due to their intelligence failures throughour the conflict! It was their biggest intelligence failure!
For the logistics part, our cantonment at Gultari was handling all such logistics operations for this conflict, including reinforcements!
Regarding to casualties, some of our men were in khakis and some of them in track suits and normal Shalwar kameez and blankets! I can post pics of our soldiers being buried, but Mod has forbidden such postings!
Last comes the combat ineffectiveness, well wht i said was true, i also said k u should get hold of someone who fought there with those NLI, he will tell u all u want! Its tht simple! I have met alot of such ppl who were attached to NLI units, and they r the ones who tell such things!

[A Khan]

Nawaz unilaterally decided Kargil pullout: Musharraf



Troops withdrawal from Iraq would have adverse impact on region; Urdu version of president’s memoirs launched

By Muhammad Saleh Zaafir

ISLAMABAD: President Pervez Musharraf has revealed that former prime minister Nawaz Sharif took the decision unilaterally to withdraw troops from Kargil in Washington under pressure.

He (Nawaz) had been fully briefed by the armed forces about the pros and cons of the situation. “There was no problem from the military point of view in Kargil and the then prime minister disregarding the meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Defence (DCC) planned after two days for taking stock of the situation of Kargil left in haste for Washington where he agreed to withdraw from Kargil”.

The president was responding to a question about the Kargil episode during the launching ceremony of his memoir’s Urdu version “Sub Se Pahle Pakistan” (Pakistan comes first) at an Iftar-dinner at a local hotel on Saturday.

The president, who dealt with the Kargil war in a separate chapter in his autobiography, gave chronology of the events that led to the Washington decision regarding withdrawal of troops from Kargil.

The president, who was then chief of the army staff (COAS), disclosed that a meeting of the DCC took place on July 2, 1999 at the Prime Minister House wherein he gave a detailed briefing about the Kargil situation with the help of charts and covered all the aspects of the battle including the enemy’s perspective, intrusion by the enemy in the Line of Control (LoC), use of air power and naval blockade.

“I gave the briefing for more than an hour and the then prime minister asked me twice or thrice that should we withdraw the troops from Kargil or not. I responded emphatically that from the military point of view there has been no problem but the decision has to be political. No decision was taken in the meeting and it was decided that another meeting of the DCC would take place after three days. The meeting was also attended by Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain and Raja Zafarul Haq. Both later strongly opposed the withdrawal of troops”

The president told the gathering that the next evening he was playing golf in Murree when he received a call from prime minister Nawaz Sharif to rush to Chaklala airbase from where the prime minister was about to take off for Washington. “I met him at Chaklala base about midnight and Nawaz asked me again about withdrawing the troops or not. I replied in the same manner and made it clear again that there was no problem for Pakistan from the military point of view. The prime minister without giving me his perception flew to Washington and the decision pertaining to withdrawal later came from there”.

President General Pervez Musharraf stressed the need for harmony among various institutions of the state and said it could bring strength to the country. Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, while talking to the media after the function, endorsed the president’s contention on Kargil and added that General Musharraf opened his note book and responding to the question of Nawaz Sharif reminded him that on at least four occasions he briefed him about Kargil progressively and took him into confidence about the whole affair.

.......

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=3796

[Jungen-Loenen]

Different views of Tiger Hill , the first pic also shows 'India Gate, the place where Capt Sher, NH, got shahaadat!

[Noman Habib]

Personally, I am big fan of our president. But I think that one has to own the truth even when it means that one is open to criticism. Unfortunately, our president is not telling the whole truth regarding Kargil.

1.That is true with war still on and kashmir still unresolved all cards can not be displayed.However you can say what is truth because it will not be official version anyway
2.The briefing on on 2nd of july sound funny because by then there was no secrecy left anyway.
3. Kargill has become a complex for Indians on international forum and that is why again anf again they start this discusion.
4.respected mr jungen leonen NLI is part of army and if they were told to go in other dress they will go in other dress any dress other than uniform.
5.Re inforcement moved in after the secrecy was broken not before .There was no built up to report.Kargill comission in india just made some scapegote out of Intelligence and that poor brigadier of IA don,t remeber his name who was unable to look after the huge gaps in his defences.
6.On military side you won,t find any failure none in planing execution and even with drawal by FCNA

[Jungen-Loenen]

4.respected mr jungen leonen NLI is part of army and if they were told to go in other dress they will go in other dress any dress other than uniform.

At that time, NLI was just a paramilitary force. It became part of the regular army after the kargil conflict, seeing their abilities and heroism! The change in clothes was made to reinforce our claim tht militants were fighting up there, not soldiers from our side!

[Gondal]

what was the official casualty figures on both sides?

Pakistan: 397 dead

India: 2700 dead

[JunaidNasir]

Second, for this operation, the existing brigades were strongly re-inforced, with NLI units added to bolster their offensive and holding power should indians try to pursuit us into our territory! Refer to the scans above, which will give u some picture!

U r right, winter dumping des not go unnoticed, thts y their review commision severely critisized RAW and IB due to their intelligence failures throughour the conflict! It was their biggest intelligence failure!
For the logistics part, our cantonment at Gultari was handling all such logistics operations for this conflict, including reinforcements!
Regarding to casualties, some of our men were in khakis and some of them in track suits and normal Shalwar kameez and blankets! I can post pics of our soldiers being buried, but Mod has forbidden such postings!


U r wrong on multiple counts:

All the winter dumping that took place on our side was in accordance with peace time requirment and hence nothing out of the ordinary. Now i am saying this because i know the person who was incharge. Now he was not given any supplies out of the ordinary and sure as hell was not given any special instructuions as to how to disburse the supplies.
He was being made a scape goat after kargil and court martial charges were being brought against him but (due to cetain reasons) were not. So in reality their was nothing suspecious for the indians to suspect.

There was no movement of troops and the only movement that happened was after the hostilities had begun. Had thier been any plaining to bring about reinforcements that a brigade would not have arrived in the sector after it was all over .
All the fighting was done by NLI and SSG + a few units of regular army who were already their, but mainly NLI & SSG.

All in all their was nothing for the indians to suspect as it was suppose to be a localised affair untill the indians went for the over kill.

This topic has been discussed to a great extent and if you would just read the privious discussion you will basically find all the info in their. You basically have nothing new to add and all your info is basically rehashed, so until you find somthing new please hold your peace. (No offence mate ;) )

[JunaidNasir]

Deal on Siachen close

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\10\30\story_30-10-2006_pg1_1

* Foreign minister says much work on Siachen solution already done
* Hopeful foreign secretaries meeting next month will pave way for Manmohan’s visit to Pakistan

Daily Times Monitor

LAHORE: Foreign Minister Khurshid Kasuri has said that India and Pakistan are “very close” to reaching an agreement to resolve their dispute over the Siachen glacier.

“As foreign minister of Pakistan, I know we are very close to an agreement. I will not go into details. It depends on political will and I hope that the prime minister and the foreign minister of India will show that political will,” Mr Kasuri said in an interview with the Press Trust of India on Sunday.

He noted that work on a Siachen solution had been continuing for some time. “Things can be more easily done and issues like Siachen can more easily be resolved because a lot of work has already been done,” he said.

Mr Kasuri also said the focus of the meeting between Pakistan and India’s foreign secretaries on November 14 and 15 in New Delhi next month, and a subsequent meeting of foreign ministers, would be to achieve a “breakthrough” that would enable Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to undertake a “substantive visit” to Pakistan.

Asked what “breakthrough” he hoped for at the foreign secretaries meeting, Mr Kasuri said: “We want that your prime minister should be able to pay a visit to Pakistan. These high level visits are important and do not ever under estimate them. People commit that mistake. That is where the human element comes in. High level visits are important,” he said.

He said he would visit New Delhi next month to attend the wedding of the daughter of Panchayati Raj Minister Mani Shanker Ayer, during which he hopes to meet External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee, who recently took over as India’s new foreign minister. The foreign secretaries will work out dates for a formal meeting between the foreign ministers, he added.

“If you ask me what should be the immediate target, the foreign ministers should make sure that the next visit (by Singh) takes place quickly now that President Musharraf has already visited India,” he said. He hoped that the visit would take place this year.

Mr Kasuri expressed confidence in the foreign secretaries of the two countries, saying they were both very experienced and knew each other well.

Mr Kasuri said “useful ideas” on Kashmir were discussed when Gen Musharraf met with PM Singh in Havana. “I think it is time we took the public into confidence also. This is the first reference to useful discussions held on Kashmir and an agreement to reduce divergences and to increase convergences. I won’t go into details but these sentences speaks volumes,” he said.

He welcomed the appointment of India’s new foreign minister, saying it would open “a new channel of communications”. “I say this on the basis of experience. I have been lucky to deal with Yasahwant Sinha and Natwar Singh with whom I developed a level of trust. If you can develop a level of trust, it helps the dialogue,” he said.

[SSAAD]

U r wrong on multiple counts:

All the winter dumping that took place on our side was in accordance with peace time requirment and hence nothing out of the ordinary. Now i am saying this because i know the person who was incharge. Now he was not given any supplies out of the ordinary and sure as hell was not given any special instructuions as to how to disburse the supplies.
He was being made a scape goat after kargil and court martial charges were being brought against him but (due to cetain reasons) were not. So in reality their was nothing suspecious for the indians to suspect.

There was no movement of troops and the only movement that happened was after the hostilities had begun. Had thier been any plaining to bring about reinforcements that a brigade would not have arrived in the sector after it was all over .
All the fighting was done by NLI and SSG + a few units of regular army who were already their, but mainly NLI & SSG.

All in all their was nothing for the indians to suspect as it was suppose to be a localised affair untill the indians went for the over kill.

This topic has been discussed to a great extent and if you would just read the privious discussion you will basically find all the info in their. You basically have nothing new to add and all your info is basically rehashed, so until you find somthing new please hold your peace. (No offence mate ;) )


I concur with Junaid saheb. We had 3 Bdes under FCNA. Once the hostilities began and Indians pressed more formations into battle then another infantry bde under 10 Corps was moved into the theater. One SSG bn (less two coys) was deployed along with the NLI and infantry units. But at the initiation of our occupation of the watershed, NO additional Pakistani units were inducted aside from what were already under the command of FCNA.

The book "Kargil: Separatings facts from fiction" by Shireen Mazari specifically talks about the issue that all the rations and POL dumping was as normal. I.E. to keep the units under FCNA supplied. So the action initiated by Pakistan was a localized FCNA affair without any other major units being involved. This is also the reason that other Services were not informed initially about this localized action.

Now as far as uniforms etc. go, our guys did wear track suits and other local outfits for operational secrecy.

[Jungen-Loenen]

I concur with Junaid saheb. We had 3 Bdes under FCNA. Once the hostilities began and Indians pressed more formations into battle then another infantry bde under 10 Corps was moved into the theater. One SSG bn (less two coys) was deployed along with the NLI and infantry units. But at the initiation of our occupation of the watershed, NO additional Pakistani units were inducted aside from what were already under the command of FCNA.

The book "Kargil: Separatings facts from fiction" by Shireen Mazari specifically talks about the issue that all the rations and POL dumping was as normal. I.E. to keep the units under FCNA supplied. So the action initiated by Pakistan was a localized FCNA affair without any other major units being involved. This is also the reason that other Services were not informed initially about this localized action.

Now as far as uniforms etc. go, our guys did wear track suits and other local outfits for operational secrecy.

Granted, but then, some ppl of 99 PMA, freshly passed out, were sent to NLI units ,from their own units, just before the action! They took part in the action, having no experience of army (being freshly passed out), i heard , an officer, who got shahadat, was a 2nd Lt, even he was with the infiltration forces!
Junaid saheb, with the source u mentioned, i believe u r right;) !! But, the above mentioned thing is also correct!

[SSAAD]

Which would make sense as officers passing out of PMA would be posted out to units and invariably the 3 Bdes under FCNA would also get young officers and quite a few also volunteered for duty in Kargil. That does not change the fact that the units committed by the PA were still those under the command of FCNA and no other additional formations were brought in specifically to carry out the operations. As I mentioned earlier, later on another infantry bde was inducted. A single under-strength SSG Bn had already been inducted early on.

[AGKhan]

Pakistan: 397 dead

India: 2700 dead

I remember reading it as 357.

Since you served in the Army can you tell us any details that you can spare on kargil?

[JunaidNasir]

I know of a armor LT. who was posted to kargil straight from kharia, he did not even get the time to acclamitise, he was injured in the first couple of day he got to his post, all his platoon was basically wiped out and he was the only 1 who survived. He tried getting back but died on the way. So wt does that prove that PA had deployed armored corp at kargil?. NO, their is always armor representaion at seichen sector/FCNA.

The whole of 99 PMA had voluntered to be posted to kargil. Some of the passing out officers joined units that were serving in the area. Nothing more than that.

An other very imp fact that we all over look is the role played by mujahid force, no just during this episode but since its creation. As a recognition of that role they were regularised along with NLI.

[Noman Habib]

The article in daily jung is an interesting read about kargil,few new points
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/nov2006-daily/02-11-2006/col5.htm

[Zain Abbass]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=X3FJP4i0JM8&...ted&search= (http://youtube.com/watch?v=X3FJP4i0JM8&mode=related&search=)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IS8cKBgNsOI&...ated&search (http://youtube.com/watch?v=IS8cKBgNsOI&...ated&search)

Authentic or bollywood movie?:confused:

[ImranD]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=X3FJP4i0JM8&...ted&search= (http://youtube.com/watch?v=X3FJP4i0JM8&mode=related&search=)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IS8cKBgNsOI&...ated&search (http://youtube.com/watch?v=IS8cKBgNsOI&...ated&search)

Authentic or bollywood movie?:confused:

looks authentic , the serieal number the soilder gave can be traced but another thing what if the acutal soilder is dead and he is using all his info most soliders have letters for there familes in case they died.

[M Abdullah]

Why can't we accept these soldiers back? Or has anything been done till date to accept the bodies of fallen soldiers and POWs back from India?

[SSAAD]

Its real enough. An entire Pakistani section of 6-8 men was captured by the Indians and *ALL* of Pakistani PoWs (6-8) and dead bodies were taken back as long as it was done under a flag meeting (in the absence of UN or other Internation media).

What these people are doing here is shameful. The interrogation interviews of the PoWs should not be paraded around for cheap propaganda...these *******s know it too...I wonder how they would like Nachiketa being flaunted on google video and YouTube...In any case, I look at the same jawans with immense pride and know for a fact that after days of patrolling, fighting, hunger and fatigue, none of these guys have let down their country.

The following verses explain to us what these Indians can never understand which is that the rutba of these jawans and officers is beyond what any country can bestow upon them.

3.157. And if ye are slain, or die, in the way of Allah, forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all they could amass.

3.158. And if ye die, or are slain, Lo! it is unto Allah that ye are brought together.

3.169. Think not of those who are slain in Allah'.s way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord;

[M Abdullah]

I for one would love to see videos of fallen/captured Indians being spread around the web, exactly what they're doing with us. I for one have had enough of it. First it was the gun camera picture of the Pakistani Atlantique and now this. Absolutely shameless act on part of Indians.

[SSAAD]

When it comes to low blows, seldom can you beat the Indian propaganda. I say this from the bottom of my heart that even if I had the footage of Indian PoWs, I would not have posted it.......its outright shameful and disrespectful towards brave men regardless of their race, religion or creed. These are men of character and principle who go and do what they are ordered to do....if half of the bharati dimwits commenting on these videos understood that, they would STFU! Soldiers do what their countries order them to do...there is no shame in it if they fight and are wounded, killed or taken PoWs. A pity that these shortsighted Indians have taken away the dignity from their own fighting men by giving other Pakistanis ideas (purely out of hatred) on how to manipulate the Indian PoWs in any future conflict.

[AGKhan]

I say this from the bottom of my heart that even if I had the footage of Indian PoWs, I would not have posted it....... t.

While i appreciate your standards, putting footage of indian pows should be fair game.

We have already been putting up photos - the videos would be merely an extension of the medium.

[Rasheed]

These indians have no morals. Distinctively remember seeing on indian TV news clip some years ago dead bodies of pakistani soldiers being displayed after an apparent attack by Pakistanis on Indian position. ISPR clarified that an overwhelming indian force had attacked a Pakistani position along tha LOC and dragged the bodies to the other side to be displayed infront of the TV cameras.

[Zain Abbass]

Pakistan lost more than 4000-6000 soldiers in the Kargil war, while India lost 500 soldiers. Pakistan generally disowned the bodies of most of its soldiers but accepted a few senior officers.

The Indians have finally lost their screws:D

[Rahman AU]

Brothers/Friends,

Please open the following link to watch the magnetite of the cruelty of Indian puppets in BD, which demonstrates Hindu-Brahmin’s supporters hatred toward pious Muslims...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYK8tnBjwxg

[Omar Sheikh]

is it possible that pakdef could carry out a new report on kargil and perhaps interview some jawaans who were involved in the fighting along the LOC?

[AGKhan]

Brothers/Friends,

Please open the following link to watch the magnetite of the cruelty of Indian puppets in BD, which demonstrates Hindu-Brahmin’s supporters hatred toward pious Muslims...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYK8tnBjwxg

Irrelevant to this thread - besides you should not shift blame from your fellow citzens by blaming the indians

[SulemanAhmed]

Salaam Bros

Typically shameful and hardly surprising given the fact these people wish nothing but the worst for us.

For all the Pakistan India friendship wallas you are doing nothing but sleepwalking into a gas chamber.

Wsalaam

[A Khan]

‘Nawaz briefed on Kargil before launch of operation’

By Iftikhar A. Khan

ISLAMABAD, July 31: Former prime minister Nawaz Sharif was briefed on the Kargil operation before it was launched, Gohar Ayub Khan, the son of Pakistan’s first military ruler, disclosed.

In his book titled “Glimpses into the corridors of power” that is based on his memoirs, Gohar Ayub, who was a member of the federal cabinet when the Kargil operation was launched, said very few senior army officers were kept in the loop in order to maintain secrecy, and even the naval and air chiefs were not included.

Gen Pervez Musharraf’s confidence with regard to the Kargil operation stemmed from his assessment that the conditions were such that Pakistan would have an advantage over the Indians in the event of a war escalating on the international border, and if India broadened the conflict, Pakistan would have an upper hand.

Gen Musharraf believed this was an opportunity that would not be present again in the near future.

The author said the Kargil conflict came up for discussion before the cabinet on June 3, 1999. The then prime minister opened the discussion by bringing out a letter he had received from US President Bill Clinton asking for the withdrawal of mujahideen forces from Kargil and Drass sectors and from the posts they had occupied.

The memoirs of Gohar Ayub cover his recollections from his boyhood days to events of partition, his cadetship at Sandhurst, and the cataclysmic affair of state he witnessed as the son of Field Marshal Mohammad Ayub Khan, as also in his capacity as Ayub Khan’s ADC, and eventually as a politician in his own right.

The narrative includes details of important military campaigns of the period, before and during which Gohar Ayub rejoined service in the army, as well as pen portraits of members of his immediate family, political and military figures, and other leading personalities. The book launching ceremony was well attended by diplomats, bureaucrats, academics and journalists.

http://www.dawn.com/2007/08/01/nat17.htm

[Mujahid Achakzai]

What i would like to know is that what has been done about getting back our brave Jawans. Have these brave soldiers been returned or are they still in captivity? Is there any sort of update in regards to the well being of these fellow countrymen and did GoP do anything or is doing anything to get them back home?

May Allah protect our brothers and may He grant their safe return back home to Pakistan!

[SSAAD]

What i would like to know is that what has been done about getting back our brave Jawans. Have these brave soldiers been returned or are they still in captivity? Is there any sort of update in regards to the well being of these fellow countrymen and did GoP do anything or is doing anything to get them back home?

May Allah protect our brothers and may He grant their safe return back home to Pakistan!

None in captivity. Many made the ultimate sacrifice and their bodies are in such a difficult terrain that sometimes they are left where they have fallen. Neither side holds any PoWs from the Kargil conflict.