Military Aviation - News & Views

[SyedA]

Islamabad The News - September 4, 2001

Sri Lanka may seek military supplies from Pakistan

Sri Lankan President Chandrika Kumaratunga is likely to ask President Musharraf for supply of military planes, helicopters and other military equipment, when she meets Pakistani President General Musharraf during the UN General Assembly session.

Though Pakistani and Sri Lankan diplomats would not confirm or deny about Musharraf-Kumaratunga meeting in New York, sources say that such a meeting between presidents of Sri Lanka and Pakistan is being finalised for a date prior to Musharraf-Vajpayee meeting on September 25.

President Kumaratunga is scheduled to address the special session on Children of the UN General Assembly in the morning of September 20 while President Musharraf would address the afternoon session on the same day.

According to sources, Sri Lankan President is expected to request Pakistan for supply of some military planes, helicopters and other military equipment required to meet the urgent defence needs of her Island nation. Rebel Tamil insurgents destroyed three military planes, helicopters and other equipment of the air force in one well planned attack at the Colombo airport.

This one attack cut the Sri Lankan air force to half of its capacity. "She is eager to get three F-16 from Pakistan on lease; but due to some legal and practical difficulties, she is willing to go for alternative like fighter aircraft manufactured with joint collaboration of China and Pakistan," the sources said. Option of lease or purchase would be tabled once Pakistan responds in affirmative.

The question of leasing the US made F-16 planes has two-fold obstacles. Pak-US agreement requires a US clearance for any such transfer of US manufactured planes to another country. In addition, currently changing situation in South Asia and Pakistan's own defence needs do not allow Pakistan to spare any F-16 planes for use by Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka may opt for some used helicopters, Chinese fighter planes and other military equipment, according to the sources.

Asked about India's reaction to any such proposal, the sources said that Sri Lanka acted wisely and deliberately approached New Delhi with similar request for supply of military equipment to make up for the losses caused by an attack by Tamil rebels. India, with its long record of sympathy and support to Tamils, denied the Sri Lankan request. Now after Indian refusal to supply, Sri Lanka has decided to turn to Pakistan for supply.

India has no reason to agitate over any such deal between these two countries. The volume and dollar value of such proposed supply is not known.

The next Saarc meeting to be held in December in Nepal would be another topic of discussion between the two powerful and non-ceremonial presidents of South Asian countries. Both enjoy executive powers to make and implement decisions. Sri Lanka would hand over Saarc chairmanship to Nepal this year in December.

[Amer M]

PAF buffs,
Don't know if this is the right place to post but just to let you guys know, the new Air International has 2 immaculate pics of PAF fighters.
One of an F7, the *best* you'll ever see of that and the second in the Asian air power section showing a pair of F7 and Mirage fighters from the 5 o'clock positon. Both are absolute beauties.

[Behjat]

Salaam,

Man, you're gonna cause an accident. Don't give such info out where I have to pull the car out of snow and speed to the Bookstore violating all traffic rules--even ones they haven't got yet.:mad:

Best to just show the pic. Do you have access to a scanner? Well, I'd love to stay and talk but the bookstore will close...

[Gaf]

The pictures in Air International are good, but i think that the following is the best picture i have seen of an F7MP...

[araf]

Assalam,
Nice, the pilot is a lot higher in the cockpit than I imagined, and from what I hear the F7PGs have a one-piece windscreen further improving visibility.

Kashif

[Gaf]

Interesting piccie from Hindustan times of PAF F7P landing on Motorway.. somewhere in Pakistan...

Interesting that the F7P is in a "clean" configuration......

[azfar]

I believe the pilot appears a lot higher
due to the angle of the photograph.

Unfortunately the recent pictures of the
F-7PG (if actual pictures) posted on this
forum from Kanwa, the canopy doesn't have a
one piece windshield, it still retains the
old Mig-style blast shield that is considered so
bad for visibility.

cheers
Farrukh

Originally posted by araf
Assalam,
Nice, the pilot is a lot higher in the cockpit than I imagined, and from what I hear the F7PGs have a one-piece windscreen further improving visibility.

Kashif

[afridi]

http://www.irna.com/en/world/020127205821.ewo.shtml

Islamabad, Jan 27, IRNA -- With no sign of tension easing between
Pakistan and India, the Pakistan Air Force transport and fighter
aircraft carried out an exercise to undertake operations from one of
the several road runways prepared on a motorway, officials said
Sunday.
"The exercise was part of the high state of preparedness and
alert being maintained by the Pakistan Air Force at present," and PAF
release said here Sunday............................................ .

[Mohammed Ali]

Seems like an FT-7 instead. Anyhow, the Iranian press is wrong in saying that this is the first such exercise by PAF.

[afridi]

You are correct.

It is not the first.

[Usman Shabbir]

PAF jets carry out exercise on motorway

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) transport and fighter aircraft carried out operations from one of the several road runways prepared on the motorway. The exercise was part of the activities of high state of operational preparedness and alert being maintained by the PAF at present, a PAF press release said on Sunday. The operations were meant at exercising pilots and ground crew to undertake operations from surfaces other than the road runway at forward operational bases (fob) and main operational bases (MOB). The PAF is the first air force in the region to undertake this kind of exercise. The ability to operate from the road runways would not only enhance the redundancy but also provide flexibility of operations, the press release added.

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/index.html

[Usman Shabbir]

Pakistan Hopeful of UAV Sales to the Persian Gulf Region

Sources in Pakistan claim that they are very close to finalizing sales of their locally developed and manufactured unmanned aerial vehicle. At the November air show in Dubai, United Arab Emirates, Pakistani represented discussed the three UAVs that are currently offered. The Vector Mk-2 is a surveillance and recon vehicle with a range of about 200 km, ceiling of about 12,000 feet, and speeds up to 200 kph. The Nishan Mk-2 can operate up to about 5,000 feet and an operating endurance of about 1.5 hours. Finally, the Hornet Mk-5 (which can also be used as an aerial target) had a ceiling of about 6,000 feet and can cruise up to 380 kph, with a four hour endurance. The sources would not reveal what countries have expressed an interest or when the sales are expected.

Source: JoMO (Volume 11, Number 6).

[RMS Azam]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/misc/border/jet.jpg

PAF conducted such an exercise during the Kargil Conflict in 1999. So its not the first time for the PAF. Although, it is true that PAF is the only air force in South Asia/Middle East to land and takeoff from Motorways. They removed the concrete dividers from the middle of the M-2 Lahore-Islamabad Motorway which has 10 seperate straight runway capable strips. In fact, these straight strips were planned with exactly such uses in mind.

Aircraft involved in Sunday's exercise included C-130, FT-7P, F-16B and Super Mushshak.

[nausherwan]

it seems that now the sole purpose of the motorway is the use of it by PAF and Edhi Air Ambulances. You hardly see any cars on it!!!!

[Amer M]

Heres an aerial pic of the Lahore-Islamabad motorway...

[Mohammed Ali]

so any chance someone can scan the pics for the rest of the members?

[Usman Shabbir]

so any chance someone can scan the pics for the rest of the members?

Give me a couple of days and I will scan them.

[Gaf]

http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/jan2002-daily/29-01-2002/oped/car.gif

[Usman Shabbir]

Afghan Defector in Pakistan

The excellent Pakistan Air Force Museum at Faisal, on the outskirts of Karachi, has recently acquired former Afghan Air Force Antonov An-26 Curl 276. It is one of a small number of Afghan aircraft that has found its way into foreign hands in recent years, courtesy of the pilots seeking asylum. The aircraft was operated by PAF’s 12 Squadron at Chaklala as 278, until spares ran out.

Source: FlyPast, January 2002.

[Usman Shabbir]

China Sends Latest Air Defence Missile to Pakistan

At the request of the Pakistani government, China has sent the LY-60N surface-to-air missile system to Pakistan to bloster a relatively week air defence system. As U.S. warplanes pound targets in Afghanistan, some based in Pakistan, the possibility of retaliation by the Afghan 'Air Force' remains a possibility. Designed to operate within the low to medium altitude envelope, the LY-60N is not yet in operation with China's armed forces, meaning it is optimized for ranges from 30 to 12,000 meters. The guidance system uses continuous wave semi-active homing and has frequency agility, making jamming difficult. The missile itself is 3.89 meters long, travels at Mach 3 and can pull 35g while maneuvering.

Source: JoMO (Volume 11, Number 6).

[Usman Shabbir]

Very interesting article from India-Today.com Instead of posting it in the Political Forum I am posting it here, due to the authors comments about M2 - just for the fun of it.

Lessons from the neighbourhood
By INDIA TODAY Assistant Editor, Rohit Saran.

Riding along the 6-lane Motorway from Lahore to Islamabad, it is difficult to believe that you are in a country that is supposed to be falling apart. Connecting Pakistan's capital with the nation's largest industrial city, the 357-kilometer highway -- called M2 -- is as good and as efficient as the expressways in the US and turnpikes in Europe.

The average driving speed is 100 kilometers an hour and you stop only once in your journey -- to pay Rs 200 toll (170 Indian Rupees). Its 74 bridges ensure that there are no road crossings. A dividing wall, between up and down-stream traffic, rules out eventualities of head-on traffic, and barbed fencing all along the M2 prevents any sideways movement. But dare not turn into a speed freaks. Toyota-borne highway patrols keep an agile eye on over-speeding.

The $1.16 billion (approximately 50,000 crore Indian Rupees) highway is Pakistan's testimony that a Third World country can build -- and maintain -- a First World infrastructure. India's Delhi-Agra highway, constructed after, doesn't come close to the Lahore-Islamabad Motorway, either in construction or in maintenance.

India's "collapsing" neighbour is ahead in other infrastructure too. It has surplus power, runs more efficient telephone services and the cities of Islamabad and Lahore are better kept than most Indian metropolitan cities. Dial the local telephone enquiry in Islamabad and the response will be quick and accurate -- a rarity with Delhi's MTNL telephone enquiry. Lahore's street's are better-lit and road instructions are more accurate than one would find in any Indian city. The canal that surrounds Lahore and most of its suburbs is many times cleaner than the Yamuna in Delhi.

Pakistanis enjoy better infrastructure because they pay a better price for it. A middle-class family spends anything between a third to a fourth of its monthly income on the three basic utilities of power, gas and telephone. Consequently, in 1999-2000 Pakistan spent just 0.4 per cent of its national income on subsidies, down from 1.1 per cent in 1990-91. During the same period, India's subsidy bill has hovered around 3.1 per cent of its national income.

Interestingly -- and instructively for the Indian policy makers -- most of the subsidy cuts in Pakistan have happened in the past ten years when democratic governments were in power. A weaker democracy has produced bolder pricing reforms. One may argue that raising prices has been easier in Pakistan because poverty is not as acute there as it is in India. Pakistanis claim with pride that nobody dies of starvation in their country. While that is an exaggeration, the poorest of the poor in Pakistan are better off than the poorest of the poor in India -- partly because Muslim society does not have the kind of caste system Hindu society is ridden with.

But lower poverty is not the only reason that made the task of subsidy cuts easier in Pakistan. Some of the critical lobbies in Pakistan are, somehow, not as unreasonable as they are in India. For instance, the agriculture lobby in Pakistan does not fight for low input prices (subsidised seeds, fertilisers, water). It fights for higher output (crop) prices. In India the farm lobby bleeds the government both ways, demanding -- and getting -- subsidised inputs as well as a remunerative price for output.

But Pakistan's economic virtues begin and end with successful subsidy reduction and a relatively efficient infrastructure management. The country holds out many more lessons in economic mismanagement. Read all about them next week in 'Warnings from the neighbourhood'.

http://www.india-today.com/webexclusive/dispatch/20000513/saran.html

[majithia]

U-S:D :D

Thanks for posting the article. I personally have witnessed "Indian achievements" in my visits to India and every time I have truly appreciated and "bowed down" to my land as soon as I crossed over to "Sarzameen-e-Pakistan" from India. The purpose to observe every thing and any thing about India - their living standard, sub-standard products every thing from bicycle, maruti to textiles, their homes, what they ate and wear, their army, talked to the officers, drove through cantonments etc;

First thing that is so noticeable to any Pakistani when you cross border from Wagha(Pakistan's side) you go back 20 years. They are primitive by Pakistani standardand which it is so shocking.

Poverty,the hallmark of Indian life, is so clearly visible even at the Atari railway station(Indian side). The poor coolies(by the dozen)chase you as they see you coming from Pakistan knowing well average Pakistanis are excellent tippers.

Indians haggling with rikshaw puller for nickle and dimes is a common sight almost every where in India.

Indians have become thick skin, insensitive about the abject poverty and the cruel disparity between rich and poor has widened. The cast system without doubt has played a major role in keeping the masses "bare-ass" poor..

I, once pulled the rickshaw (in Amritsar to piss people off) while the kid (rikshaw puller)just sat uncomfortably with my handbag and prayed loudly in Punjabi "Ram Ram Ram Bao ji Tusi te Marwa Deo gey".

You can see thousands of Biharis and people from UP( home of fairy tales) working in Indian Punjab's towns and farmland for minimum wages. One Punjab's district(Gurdaspur)now has more than 200k Biharis permanantly settled there.

Pakistan is far better than India :cool: :cool: :cool: and the Indians know this in their hearts but do not have the xxx to admit.

Majithia

[FarazA]

Not just India, I used to deliver pizza, trust me they are the worst next to African americans. No tip and 20 minutes later called in and says that there is meat in their pizza and they want their money back. Cheap B*.

[Usman Shabbir]

China Supplies SAMs to Pakistan

Pakistan may have received additional Chinese-built CPMIEC LY-60N (CSA-N-2) naval surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems and has been offered other, unidentified, Chinese land-based SAMs, writes David C Isby. According to unconfirmed reports in the Hong Kong press, SAM deliveries were accelerated in response to a Pakistani requirement for enhanced air defences following the 11 September attacks on the USA. It was not reported which Pakistani warships would receive the new LY-60Ns. It currently arms three of Pakistan's six Tariq-class (ex-RN Type 21) frigates, and the other three ships are possible candidates. When delivered to Pakistan in 1993-95, all six ships were armed with Shorts Seacat SAM system. This was removed and replaced by Phalanx close-in weapon systems (CIWS) taken from absolete Gearing-class destroyers.

The LY-60N is similar to the Alenia Aspide both externally and internally, and is reported to be based on the Italian missile. In the naval role it is controlled by a semi-automatic combat system capable of tracking 40 targets and with a reaction time of 9sec. The missile uses continuous wave semi-active radar guidance and is capable of 35g manoeuvres. It can engage targets travelling up to 600m/sec and manoeuvring up to 7g.

Source: Janes Defence Weekly - January 2002.

[uazim]

Found this on Pakstratfor.com.

any comment

U

Secret Devices in US Aircrafts, how to counter ?
Devices in US aircraft



Tim Kennedy


Scenario One: US-made fighter planes from two warring countries are engaged in a pitched aerial battle.

The airframes, avionics, armaments, and technical capabilities of the American-made military aircraft are identical in every way.

With one exception: technicians at the US aircraft plant have hidden electronic devices deep within the planes sold to the country “less friendly” to the United States.

When triggered by a secret signal from an American satellite, these devices completely disable the “less friendly” aircraft, making them easy to shoot down.

Scenario Two: The head of a foreign government flies his American-made transport plane to an international conference where he will negotiate sensitive defence, trade and other foreign policy issues.

Unbeknownst to the foreign leader, the US government has secretly planted surveillance devices throughout the aircraft.

The “bugs” enable the American intelligence community - and their allies - to eavesdrop on the head of state’s most private conversations.

If you think these scenarios are works of fiction, think again.

Recently, the Peoples Republic of China revealed that it had discovered more than 25 listening devices on the new American-built aircraft of the Chinese President.

The bugs were found throughout Jiang Zemin’s customised aircraft, including in the headboard of the presidential bedroom and his bathroom.

The Chinese president’s Boeing 767 was built for $ 30 million at the aircraft company’s Seattle plant before undergoing a luxury refit to Beijing’s specifications in San Antonio, Texas.

Chinese officials accuse the US intelligence services of planting the bugs, saying the listening devices are highly advanced and can be activated remotely by a communications satellite.

Dee Howard Aircraft Maintenance, the Texas-based company hired to complete work on the custom-made 767, was paid an additional $ 10 million to equip the plane with earth-tone leather chairs that convert into beds, a large presidential suite, satellite communications, and anti-missile defence systems.

Needless to say, the White House, the US Department of State and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), America’s lead intelligence agency, have all refused to comment on the issue.

US Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld, used his appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press” to attempt to diminish the significance of the episode, saying he had “no knowledge” of the incident, but added that he doubted that it would affect relations between Washington and Beijing.

“We are two big countries.

We have lots of interests in common, and I suspect life goes on,” said Rumsfeld.

Foreign policy experts worry the discovery of listening devices aboard the Chinese presidential plane threaten to overshadow“If a satellite can secretly trigger a surveillance device onboard the Chinese president’s Boeing 767, it could just as easily trigger a device that can disable the radar or flight controls of a military fighter like an F-16,” a US Air Force official tells Strategic Policy.

“The triggering device would not have to be any larger than a shirt button and it could be hidden anywhere in the aircraft’s airframe or within its miles and miles of wiring harnesses.” The Air Force official says foreign buyers of American military aircraft are usually required to sign a second contract with manufacturers for all the aircraft’s maintenance work, thus making it unlikely foreign governments would examine the aircraft very closely.

“These planes are sophisticated, so there isn’t much chance of a foreign aviation technician nosing around inside too deeply.

Even so, they’d have to know exactly where to look to find it.” Despite the Air Force official’s assurances, experts in American arms exports are alarmed at the prospect of such disabling devices being discovered inside military aircraft.

“If such devices existed, and were found, they would dramatically affect foreign interest in US arms exports,” says Steven Aftergood, Director of the Project on Government Secrecy at the Washington-based Federation of American Scientists.Robert D.

Steele, a former CIA officer and author of On Intelligence: Spies and Secrecy in an Open World, believes foreign buyers are entitled to be sceptical about other American-made technology.

“President Bush should understand that his intelligence managers are obsessed with technology at the expense of all else.

For what we spent for that plane, the CIA could have hired 100 Chinese scholars to read all the newspapers in China for a year,” says Steele.

“The Chinese episode should be a kick in the behind for the president: Wake up! Your people are too busy spending money playing esoteric technical games.”



ToorPak


__________________
Pak sarzameen shad bad Kishwar-e-Haseen shad bad

[Usman Shabbir]

Majithia sahib, thanks for the insight:)
Couple of years ago, I was visiting my grand parents in a village near the then-being developed M-2 motorway. One afternoon I went to one of the sites where they were constructing a small bridge and had a chance to discuss some of the M2 aspects with one of the Korean engineers at the site, whom, when I asked the question in English to my amazement replied in perfect Urdu:) At that time that particular engineer was worried about an abornormility in soil around the bridge which according to him was too soft to last for long before sort of caving-in. Anyway so they decided to remove large quantities of soil from around the bridge and replace it with other soil taken from some other area; it took them literally hundreds of trucks to patch-up that area just to cure that soft soil problem which according to the engineer would have effected that 300 ft strecth of M2 about 4-5 years after it would have been constructed - that's how careful they were. A good Danish friend of mine who is a mountanier just recently visited Pakistan, when asked about what he liked most about Pakistan his reply was People, Food and the Roads:) which according to him are some of the best he has seen outside Europe.

I will cut it here since we are now discussing something other then Military Aviation - may be we can open a thread in the Political Forum and discuss Pakistan's infrastructure development compared to other Asian countires.

[Gaf]

Ok guys, Aircraft Illustrated (March Edition) has done a special on the current tension between India/Pakistan.

It is about 4 pages, with 2 dedicated to India proganda with the remaining pages split between the Orbat of PAF and IAF..

It goes on to state that PAF has 380 aircraft split over 18 squadrons with "7 squadrons seriously under strength"..... It then goes on to state the IAF is better trained and better equipped.... (equipped yes... trained... no!!!!!)...

I would have bought it, but to have done so would have only meant that i parted with my hard earned cash for baboon propaganda(written by a chap who calls himselft "Simon")... i don't feel like encouraging that type of behaviour... :mad: so my advice.. pop down to you're latest shop, read the latest March edition of Aircraft illustrated and walk out.. we can then all "debate" it online....

PS. It did have some piccies in it though :( :rolleyes:

[omear]

interesting read, for anyone with lots of free time. This is the official manual for the viper.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/16v5.pdf

[yasser]

Guys
I have the latest issue of Flight International (12-18th Feb 2002) and it has a military aircraft census.
According to this Pak has the following numbers


Mirage 3/5 = 146 Aircraft
T-37 = 40 Aircraft
A-5 = 40 Aircraft
K-8 = 8 Aircraft
F-16 = 32 Aircraft
FT-5 = 30 Aircraft
F-6/FT-6 = 50 Aircraft
F-7P/PG/FT-7 = 196 Aircraft

[azeemchoudhary]

Asalaam-u-alaikum
How is it then that a lot of these magazines and many articles have suggested a figure of about 350? does this suggest that a fair number of our aircraft are not combat worthy?

[yasser]

I think they tend to minus the two seaters like the F-16B,Mirage 5D etc

But these aircraft are very valuable strike platforms, if you include them I would say we have about 450 aircraft!!!

[SyedA]

Gaf

Aircraft Illustrated - March Edition
Ok guys, Aircraft Illustrated (March Edition) has done a special on the current tension between India/Pakistan.

It is about 4 pages, with 2 dedicated to India proganda with the remaining pages split between the Orbat of PAF and IAF..

It goes on to state that PAF has 380 aircraft split over 18 squadrons with "7 squadrons seriously under strength"..... It then goes on to state the IAF is better trained and better equipped.... (equipped yes... trained... no!!!!!)...

I would have bought it, but to have done so would have only meant that i parted with my hard earned cash for baboon propaganda(written by a chap who calls himselft "Simon")... i don't feel like encouraging that type of behaviour... so my advice.. pop down to you're latest shop, read the latest March edition of Aircraft illustrated and walk out.. we can then all "debate" it online....

PS. It did have some piccies in it though

__________________________________________________ _

Rauf

Not only US does it , in 1990 during Gulf war, French provided the code of M2K systems to US/UK and the US elint used it to disable functions of radar and subsystems , if that was possible in 1990, with the speed the elctronics change imagine what all can be done today. I love the age of technology, on other hand isnt PAf going for MLU for its F-16s ? through US avionics and subsystems, kinda makes one wonder in case of war F-16s as tectical nuclear delivery platform are suddenly can not function there arming capability, or the French release the code to disable any future PAF M2K, this is something that ou would have to live with as logn as you buy a system from west.
__________________________________________________ _

Farooq

Which explains the reason why UAE wanted source code for its F16's

__________________________________________________ _

Amer M

Gaf,
Got the mag, PAF pics are old...ish, except for the A5 flightline. IAF pics are new though for anyone interested in IAF

I was surprised it said 'several' PAF sqns were under-strength. This is only the case with the 2xF16 units while the Mirage and F7 sqns are over-strength. However there may be maintenence problems with the old F6 and A5 units resulting in less aircraft available. I count 17 frontline PAF sqns not 18 as it quotes. Anyhow Aircraft Illustrated is usually only good for pics, never a good source for hard info, figures usually being off mark.

__________________________________________________ _

yasser

US Meets PAF's "requirments"
Guys
According to this article military sales are resuming and the PAF's requirments have been met with teh US looking at our other requests on a "case by case" basis!

http://www.dawn.com/2002/02/09/top4.htm

__________________________________________________ _
Amer M

Pakistan Air Force displays fire power demonstration

ISLAMABAD, Feb 07 (PNS): Pakistan Air Force carried out firepower demonstration at one of the firing ranges here Wednesday. All leading fighter aircrafts of Pakistan Air Force, which had flown from their wartime locations, participated in the demonstration. The exercise was aimed at giving locations participated in the demonstration.

The exercise was aimed at giving the pilots the practice for mission oriented ammunition drop in close to real time environments. The ability of PAF was demonstrated during the exercise.

The demonstration was witnessed by chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mushaf Ali Mir, Vice chief of Army Staff Gen Muhammad Yousaf Khan, Vice chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Salim Arshad and other senior military officers.

Air Marshal Mushaf expressed his deep appreciation and satisfaction on the highest professional skills displayed by the PAF fighter pilots and said PAF continues to maintain the highest state of operational preparedness and is resolute to respond any Indian aggression against Pakistan with full force.

[yasser]

AFM March 2000

Great article about J-10, says it is based on Israeli Lavi and PAF F-16's.

Shows helmet mounted sight and other stuff, listing Thailand and Pakistan as potential customers.

Says 40 F-PG's delivered and be assembled by Chinese technicians.

Says that 4 out of the 5 instructors in Sri Lanka Air Force 14sqd (K-8's) are Pakistani Air Force pilots.


Air International
News section talks of Indo-Pak tensions , great pic of F-7, also mentions new F-7PG's and says that we are ordering 40 more.
Last F-6 flight will be on 23rd March.

Article on Asian Air Power

goes on to say every major Indian programme
(LCA.MIG-21 upgrade, SU-30) suffering from severe delays
hahahaha!

On Pakistan it says FC-1 could be abandoned by PAF as US may offer "Large numbers of cheap F-16s"

Also says that we are ordering 6 more CN-235's in addition to the first 4 ordered and these may replace the old trusty C-130's at Chaklala!!!!!!

[Gul Khan]

The good news is all these goodies are comming from different sources.

[Sultan]

Great find Yasser,

Also says that we are ordering 6 more CN-235's in addition to the first 4 ordered and these may replace the old trusty C-130's at Chaklala!!!!!!

Somehow I dont think that the PAF will replace the C130s with the CN 235's. To my understanding the CN 235s and C130s are meant to fulfill different roles whereby the C130s are for the tactical heavy lift role and the CN 235s are meant to complement the C130s and not replace them. Although IF the report is correct in saying that the PAF may retire its C130 fleet soon, then I wonder what aircraft the PAF will be looking at as a replacement???? whatever happened about PAFs interest in the An -72/74 (?) and the An 32???? Is the PAF still interested in these aircraft????

On Pakistan it says FC-1 could be abandoned by PAF as US may offer "Large numbers of cheap F-16s"

Id take the above statement with a bag of salt. Abandoning the S7 project for a handful of Block 15 F16s would be pretty stupid and I'd give the guys at PAF a little more credit. The S7 project does not only present the PAF with a future medium tech multirole fighter but also provides us with a wealth of other benefits:

1) The S7 will provide the aviation industry the much needed boost they require.
2) have a knock on affect for the local industries-(outsourcing,public-private cooperation).
3) technical experience gained in R+D, manufacturing
4) provide Pakistan a base for future more ambitous aviation projects
5) falls in line with Pakistan quest for complete indigenous development and prodn of high tech. weapons

etc.

[yasser]

Sultan
The choice is not ours but the PAF's, if they are offered a better aircraft (F-16A MLU) at a better price then FC-1, then they will go for F-16!!!

1) Already have lots of pilots and infrastructure to support F-16

2) Always risky being the first to try a new aircraft

3) PAF could be lumbered with being the only Air Force to operate the type if PLAAF do not order it!

4) At the end of the day the PAF have to re address the air fighter imbalance quickly, 100 F-16s delivered in a year will do this, not 150 FC-1s delivered over 4 years!!!!


5) Its not the job of PAF selection officers to worry about R&D in aerospace , that is an industry job, we have to give our pilots the best planes we possibly can, is it worth risking Pakistani lives just for the sake of being indegenous.

6) Al Khalid is comparable to anything the Indians can throw at it, FC-1 may not be able to take on SU-30's and Mirage 2000s

[Sultan]

Yasser,

I just dont think abandoning the S7 for the F16s is such a wise move. I do understand the urgency of acquiring new fighters to address the airpower imbalance between Pakistan and India however I dont think we should abandon the S7 at any cost. Sure we could purchase 100 f16s, which have not as of yet been approved by the US, but IMO, if the sale ever does get approved by the US, this will relieve the PAF of its deficiencies in the short term. What of the long term???? The F16s even after an MLU may only be in service for what 15 yrs at the most. What happens after that if we abandon the S7 project. The political scenario may not be as favourable as it is today in 15 yrs. The S7 offers the PAF a long term solution in fulfilling its requirement for a mainstay aircraft. Furthermore, it will be manufactured in Pakistan, so no problems of lack of spares etc. With time the S7 is expected to mature as a fighting platfom with upgrades in avionics, weapons combat suite as the security environment dictates. What happens if we try and upgrade the F16s in 10yrs time and sanctions have been reapplied upon Pakistan??? There are too many insecurities that will be raised with the purchase of the F16, no matter how many assurances are secured from the US. IMO with the purchase of the F16s the PAFs operational capabilities will still be left vulnerable as it is a foreign weapon and the F16 can still be subjected to foreign interferance in its operational capabilties. Something which the PAF wil not have to worry about with an indigenous platfom as the S7. Self sufficiency is the path to formulating a strong war machine.

PS The military and the military industrial complex go hand in hand. With the PAF looking out for the military industrial complex's interest they are in fact investing in PAFs future. It is these industries that will provide the PAF with the required material to wage a war in the future and not a foreign company. By investing in the local military industry the PAF will help strengthen the entire Pakistani war machine.

[Mohammed Ali]

Well, since the March issue was written late last month or early this month, a lot of its information is not current. The fact that US "may" offer F-16s seems out of the question now since they have not offered it, and infact have rejected our desire to acquire more. Moreover, S7 could not be abandoned even after the F-16 are bought cause we would still need to replace F-7 and Mirages in another 8-10 years. But as I have said earlier, I will believe it when I see them on ground.

[yasser]

US Agrees to sell Arms to Pak

"High tech fighters" are mehtioned!


http://www.paknews.com/top.php?id=1&date1=2002-02-15

[yasser]

same news in The News

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/feb2002-daily/15-02-2002/main/main3.htm


Can we expect the sound of F-16C Block 60's landing soon!?

[afridi]

Economics seems to have been the key word in this visit.

I have not managed to get much out of people about this trip. Apparently, most of the work was done with in the realms of Dawood and Shaukat Azizi. Many people have said that there was a "reluctance" on part of the Musharraf delegation to mention any "particular" defense sales. There was far greater emphasis on training and on "economic" benefits.

To tell you the truth, most people have become increasingly more "nervous" because of the absolute lack of pressure from Pakistan for "substantial" military sales.

[zia ul haq]

Asalaamo-a-laikum.

We are not in a position to pressure anybody at the moment and therefore we should not expect to see substantial amounts of high-tech weaponry arriving on Pakistani soil from the US.

The present US administration believes very strongly that you get into bed with some pretty strange 'folks' when and where the situation necessitates. I think that just about sums up how Pakistan has been treated.

The overall picture is to manouvre to encircle China, the enemy of tomorrow. They need India for this and Pakistan is seen as being, well, 'not in the picture'.

We had better make sure we do not end up on the 'terrorist list' in the future but Musharraf seems to be doing a fairly decent job in avoiding that. Better than any 'elected' monkey at any rate.

We are better off pursuing a two pronged stratergy, F-16s and if that falls through something from France.

[yasser]

Zia

No disrespect but you seem to be on a different planet then the rest of us, have you read what the western media, world leaders, and the US Congress have been saying!?

Seen the debt releif!?

Seen the fact that rather then stupidly go to the US and make Bush announce a weapons deal at a time of tension , these things will go through the pipeline of the Defence Consultative group!?

[Sultan]

Yasser:
US Agrees to sell Arms to Pak

The Nation seems to be carrying a similar story. They went further and stated that Pentagon sources revealed the Pakistan was interested in acquiring various types of aircrafts as well as ships.


http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/today/others/for2.htm

[Mohammed Ali]

I think you guys are building up a euphoria over nothing particularly clear in the statement my PM. The number of deals are most likely spare and support oriented. Also, the name defence consultive group, instead of defence assistance should give you a clue as to what to expect from the US. While we are sitting here waiting for something to show up, US has already agreed to sell India unspecified number oe engines for their new fighter, while we are still dperived of those for our trainer.

We can say that Pakistan has not pushed hard enough for defence deals, but that makes sense since economy if a larger problem for us right now. Also, would I be wrong to say that the only reason why sanctions have been lifted off from India and Pakistan is so that the US can supply India with weapons without having Pakistan raise hue and cry over it. So in the end, I dont expect anything significant in terms of weapons, and will believe when something very concrete is said like, we are selling this many of this for such amount. As for statements from their congress etc, I would take them as lip serivce.

[fameen]

Originally posted by afridi
To tell you the truth, most people have become increasingly more "nervous" because of the absolute lack of pressure from Pakistan for "substantial" military sales.

Nervous? Pls. elaborate.

I was intrigued about a report somewhere that said Shaukat and Razzak were meeting US reps of the textile industry. That is where the opposition to tariff lifting comes from. While we didn't get anything meaningful on that front... at least nothing was announced in the press (the $180 million is chicken feed), what was the objective of those meetings if, indeed, they took place? Any word on that Afridi? Could Shaukat and Razzak have been talking them into direct investment in Pakistan? That would be a coup, but maybe I'm dreaming.

[zia ul haq]

Asalaao-a-laikum.

If not trusting people who have a history of stabbing us in the back means living on a different planet then so be it.

The US cannot/will not supply major weapons systems to us because it is not in their long term interests. Spares and other defensive systems perhaps.

Remember a Muslim is not stung in the same hole twice, (ie 'once bitten, twice shy').

[Mohammed Ali]

Actuslly that is a momin, not a Muslim. So it does not apply to most Pakistanis. otherwise how do u explain nawaz and BB coming to power again, w/ bb still having large public support.

[afridi]

Nervous....


well, the point in contention with teh psyche of teh Pakistani delegation is that they are not "pushing for urgent" support. This is what everyone expected, a sort of wish list out of which teh US would have to trickle down to a few minor things and sign general, almost meaningless, agreements on immediate transfers which do not arrive immediately:).

However, there was not even a whisker of a plea for urgent assistance from teh Pakistan side. There were talks of "future discussions" on "certain" issues and systems which were to be held "in due course".
No specifics were mentioned.

This is not an attitude the US has come to expect from Pakistan. It is coming across as self assured, thus the nervousness. The question being muttered under breath is "why?".

There is also a great sense of unease in the US.
Pakistan has never been so "shadowed" for them in the past. Never have a large majority of our red collars been completely alien to the US. Thus, there is apprehension and some confusion.
The US analysts have always thought of the Pakistanis as disciplined but "daring" planners who tend to take innitiatives rather than be cautious.
Whether that is true today or not was sort of re-enforced at Kargil and then by the coup where the Pak Military pulled a few too many surprises.



but no one knows why there is this feeling of nervousness?

I am not sure and no one I seem to talk to has a good idea. I guess only the people close to the US delegations meeting Pak delegates would have an idea.

I confess, I am none the wiser on this either. I have no idea what the reason is...neither am I in a position to guess or give a concrete opinion, all I am aware of is that this is the case.


As for the textiles quota, Dawood was in favour of a JV approach to textile commodities produced within the US. Sort of like Pakistan produces but as part of direct "over capacity" production for US plants. I am not sure what the details were and whether the idea is sellable or implementable at all.
I do not know of any meetings between Dawood and the related US businessmen.

I know that a few textile companies are doing this in collaboration with Spanish firms thus not violating any quotas but still allowing for Pakistan to gain in terms of indirect revenue generation but now that the EU has given a wide extention to our quotas, I would not be surprised if the practice is shelved completely for the moment.

It is something that was floated around 2 years ago but I am not sure "how practicle" it is. I think there are tax, allowances and rebate issues that needed to be sorted out. Not sure how far that went.

[H Khan]

According to Kuwaiti daily Al-Ra'i Al-'Am, quoting "a high-level military source", Kuwait is preparing to sell its ageing French-made Mirage F-1s to an unnamed Asian country.

[fameen]

Originally posted by afridi
Nervous....


well, the point in contention with teh psyche of teh Pakistani delegation is that they are not "pushing for urgent" support. This is what everyone expected, a sort of wish list out of which teh US would have to trickle down to a few minor things and sign general, almost meaningless, agreements on immediate transfers which do not arrive immediately:).

As for the textiles quota, Dawood was in favour of a JV approach to textile commodities produced within the US. Sort of like Pakistan produces but as part of direct "over capacity" production for US plants. I am not sure what the details were and whether the idea is sellable or implementable at all.
I do not know of any meetings between Dawood and the related US businessmen.


Thanks. Actually, if we are doing that, we may finally have learned our lesson. What the Americans have to be looking for, and we mustn't provide, are easy "handles" to influence policy. I'd rather we didn't ask for anything except spares. US equipment has hurt far too much in the past. OTOH, the degree of the US presence is in itself worrisome. They must be working overtime to develop the information sources they have come to lack over the last decade. Wendy Chamberlain's credentials for the job, amongst other things, were that "she gets along very well with Generals". I'd again much prefer to remain slightly, though not too, opaque. It's a balance we need to maintain. If they know us too well, they can influence us too much to our detriment. If they don't know us at all, they may come to regard us as hostile, which is equally wrong and counterproductive.

On the textile issue, it is important to create US stakeholders in Pakistan. The best way is to create business interests. The tech sector is deeply entrenched in India. The oil sector in Saudi. Media and general business establishment in Israel. Semiconductors in Taiwan. The US textile industry has indeed been hammered by overseas competition. Several US industries have established overseas investments to escape the high cost structure of the US. Even the auto industry outsources components from overseas. Maybe we could encourage the US textile sector to invest directly in Pakistan. It works for us... in terms of growth and employment. It may also work for them, in rendering them globally competitive once again. Importantly, the textile industry is based in States the Senators and Congress Reps of which were previously sympathetic to Pakistan. By encouraging their investment in Pakistan, they themselves would move to lift quotas and tariffs, as well as become a base for political support. Just a thought.

[Boota Masih]

Originally posted by H Khan
According to Kuwaiti daily Al-Ra'i Al-'Am, quoting "a high-level military source", Kuwait is preparing to sell its ageing French-made Mirage F-1s to an unnamed Asian country.


In addition to Kuwait, South Africa and Greece also have F1s available for sale. Others could be available from the French, Spainish or even the Libyan inventory. Despite the difference in wings and stabilizar, the FI is very similar to Mirage III and Vs, so the PAF will have little problem in integrating them into its fleet structure. They are, however, more potent multirole aircraft than the older mirages because of improved agility and more powerful engines resulting in higher payloads and fuel capacity. Some of these F1s have more than 20 years of airframe life left in them. The South African F1s for example are not due for their next major overall until 2013. There are a number number of upgrade packages available for them. They can even be upgraded with RD93 or M53-P2 engines (used in Mirage 2Ks). Buying 60/70 F1s from various sources to salvage 2/3 squadrons from the lot is a very good idea for Pakistan. With the Australian and ROSE upgrade programs coming to an end, capacity will be available at Kamra to start work on the F1s. Like the South African version, our F1s can be modified for dedicated ground attack or antiship roles to replace the unreliable and obsolete A5s. They have also been cleared for standoff missiles something which is a high priority with the PAF.

The F1 suggestion has been floating around in PAF circles for some time and I expect to hear more about it in the coming months.

By a process of elimination one can guess that the unnamed "Asian" country is Pakistan. Who else could it be? It is extremely rare that a country will buy a second hand weapon system if it has had no experience with it or with similar systems and in Asia Pakistan is the only major user of the older Mirages and is well geared to absorb the F1s. Iran flies the Iraqi defected F1s but I can't imagine the Kuwaitis selling their F1s to Iran.

[zia ul haq]

Asalaamo-a-laikum.

Though I hope Pakistan will recieve some new-build aircraft sooner rather than later the Mirage F-1s would be a very good buy.

On the other hand the possibility of them being sold to Iran should be entertained if not taken too seriously. They do use them after all.

[H Khan]

February 16, 2002;

Turkey has arranged to provide training for the UAE's new F-16 pilots, the first time that Turkey has offered to perform this service for another country. The pilots are being trained at Akinci base near Ankara; the UAE is paying about $35 million for the service.

[zeeshan]

US billed $300m for logistics


By Sabihuddin Ghausi

KARACHI, Feb 18: Pakistan has already received $80 million against a total $300 million the US administration was billed for the logistic support extended to the American forces in Pakistan during the past five months.

"The remaining balance of $220 million is due in the next few weeks," a well-placed government source disclosed to Dawn on Monday.

Federal Finance Minister Shaukat Aziz, at his news briefing on Saturday in Islamabad, had disclosed that Pakistan was charging roughly $50 to $60 million a month from the US against provision of logistics support to its forces on Pakistan soil.

He had said that this billing was being done under Acquisition and Cross Services Agreement (ACSA).

Well-placed sources say the US president is competent to make payments under ACSA without going to the Congress hence the quick release of the amount after the two sides jointly worked out the five-month bill.

The sources say that Pakistan took its cue from the US government: it had charged Saudi Arabia heavily for the "Operation Desert Storm". Pakistan's case of charging the US administration was inversely identical to that of deployment of US forces in Saudi Arabia.

"It was a real hard drill to figure out the real expenses," the source said, adding that the Chief Finance Officer of the US Defence department visited Islamabad a few weeks ago to discuss this issue in detail.

"We now expect a regular monthly inflow of $50 to $60 million under ACSA," the source said, estimating annual receipt of $600 to $700 million.

A real significant achievement of President Pervez Musharraf's recent visit to Washington is said to be the revival of a joint working consultative group on defence.

"An institutional arrangement has been put in place for frequent interaction of the defence establishments of the two countries," the source said. "It means a lot," the source noted,

"when you analyse President Musharraf's visit to the US and re-establishment of a joint working consultative group in the context of the prevailing tensions on Pakistan's eastern borders."

A de-escalation on international borders, resumption of dialogue between Pakistan and India on outstanding issues, including Kashmir, a quickest possible return to normalcy in South Asia and an economic rebuilding and reconstruction of Afghanistan as a normal functioning state remain the dominating concerns of all the US policy-makers.

The sources say that Islamabad too shares all such concerns, hence the development of a close working relationship between Pakistan and the US.

Setting up of an institutional arrangement for mutual discussion on defence issues between Pakistan and the US has apparently rekindled the hope of F-16s delivery issue being reopened. "It is not a closed chapter at all," the source said.

Government sources are confident that Pakistan Air Force will get due attention from the Pentagon. There are expectations of receiving C-130 aircraft, helicopters and spares and equipment badly needed by the air force. The emerging situation has not only brought Pakistan and US closer in defence matters but has also led to the setting up of joint working consultative groups to discuss frequently the economic issues, law enforcement matters and narcotics.

The US Attorney General Ashcroft has invited Pakistan's interior minister to discuss counter-terrorism issues.
Setting up of an institutional arrangement for mutual discussion on defence issues between Pakistan and the US has apparently rekindled the hope of F-16s delivery issue being reopened. "It is not a closed chapter at all," the source said.

PAKISTAN’s First indigenous beyond visual range Missiles
Pakistan Air Force continuing work on its own indigenous beyond visual range BVR Missiles like as South African R-Darter, and Israeli Derby. Pakistan has been co-operating with South Africa for years, including purchasing Frequency-hopping ARS-134 Radio to retrofit to its F-7s, A-5s, and Mirages. And suspected acquisition of the multi roll 300km range Multi Purpose Stand-Off Weapon (MUPSOW), (possibly kentron precision guided munitions Raptor1/2 precision long range guided weapon, U-Darter/ A-Darter air to air missiles etc)

Ex PAF Air Chief Marshal Mehdi Qureshi interview (published in Flight International 24 Fedruary-2 March 99) acknowledges that
“…. We’ve a very good relationship with South Africa. We’ve bought some things from them and some things we’ve developed ourselves which could be an improvement of what we bought from them.” Pakistan plans to arm the aircraft with precision-guided munitions, Raytheon AIM-9L sidewinder dogfight missiles and its first beyond visual range BVR weapon to counter India’s expected acquisition of AA-10, AA-11 adder, Matra super-530D, and its indigenous ASTER missiles. Among the active –guided BVR option being examined are the Matra-BAe Mica, Chinese PL-10/SD-10 and the South African Denel's T-Darter, very impressive on paper.
Air Force Monthly issue August 2001, Air Chief Marshal Mus,haf Ali Mir interview
‘…The person certainly appear to be well trained, The PAF Academy at Risalpur provides a deciplined and innovative environment in which to learn flying or aeronautical engineering skills. However, while the PAF pilots are well versed in air defense tactics, They will face a very big problem when India receives its SU-30MKI which will be equipped with RVV-AE(AA-12 Adder) BVR missiles. When you do not possess a BVR. Then you have to train well on anti-BVR tactics. For the time being, we are working heavily on anti-BVR tactics, Following by Within-Visual- Range (WVR) offensive tactics thus denying the enemy the BVR capability and attempting to engage them on our terms. We have trained our people very hard with visual range missiles like the AIM-9P and AIM-9L Sidewinder. We did work hard with certain countries came, we are now working with some global partners to introduce BVR capability as early as possible, so that the psychological benefits of our enemy will be minimal, We would integrate them with the Mirage’s Grifo-M radar and F-16’s AGP-66 radar (F-7P/MP/PG’s Grifo-7 radar). BVR has to be integrated on a radar that a range of 20-30 nautical miles.

What kind of PAF’s BVR weapon?
I was visiting Pakistan naval defense show 1998, and I visit South African stall. SA stall manager T.C Botha informs me very intrusting information about its weapons system. And I understand PAF struggle to purchase its fifth generation 180 digree angle search imaging infrared IIR homing guided all aspect A-Darter missile. Note; Russian AA-73 archer and Israeli python-4 is 4th generation 60-90 digress angle search missile. and A-Darter integrate with radar IRST (Infra Red Search and Track) system and Helmet Mounted Sight and Display HMSD,

Denel Offers Pakistan Missile Deal (Flight International August 2001)

Denel of South Africa is offering Pakistan a package of air to air weaponry for its planned Chengdu SUPER-7 fighter being jointly developed with China. It includes a proposed joint development of data-link-equipped radar guided beyond visual range missile.
The Pakistan air force confirms it is evaluating a range of active guided BVR missiles, including the newly proposed T-Darter development by Denel’s Kentron. The air force’s SUPER-7 chief project director, Air Chief Marshal Hamid Khawaja, describes the South African missile as “very impressive on paper” (they not fly its first flight)
T-Darter is understood to be a further development of Kentron’s radar equipped R-Darter now in low rate production and Ramjet powered S-Darter or LRAAM long-range anti aircraft missile100km range, Mach 2-3 speed, lock-on range 30km. The new proposed air breathing missile would for mid-course guidance updates and effective target engagements range in excess of 50km(27nm).
The South African Company acknowledges “Kentron has been discussing various proposals for air to air missiles with Pakistan air force. These proposal include the U-Darter and derivatives of the Darter family, such as the fifth generation A-Darter missile, as well as the ramjet technology developed by Denel’s Sochem division.”
Pakistan is keen to counter the Indian air force’s likely of the acquisition of the Vymple AA-12 (R-77) to arm its new Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters and upgraded Mig-29 and Mig-21bis.India also has its indigenous Astra programme.
“They (India) have the advantage ‘claims Pakistan’s chief of air staff Air Chief Marshal Parvaiz Mehdi Qureshi, “the Su-30s will definitely come with the AA-12 and they also plan to upgrade their other air defense aircraft. We are looking at various BVRs, be it the French Matra-BAe MICA, the Russian AA-12 and there are others like South Africa. We would also like to develop something ourselves in collaboration with others, say Qureshi.
R-Darter and Derby BVR missile world’s most advance missile. Israeli say derby better than AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. One Kentron representative described the R-Darter saying: “As a missile it’s certainly better then Mica missile, with outstanding ECCM capabilities. SEE Derby/R-Darter pictures ,,,,,NEXT World Military Aircraft Sensus Quantity.I posted Chinese/SouthAfrican weapon for Pakistan, Grifo radar

[Behjat]

salaam,

most of this is either old news or rhetoric. I'll believe it when we test it.

[Usman Shabbir]

Sri Lanka's K-8 Training

The Chinese/Pakistani jet trainer, the K-8 Korakorum, has now been serving the Sri Lankan Air Force, (SLAF) for six months. There was a disastrous start to the aircraft's SLAF service on July 24 last year when three of the six aircraft delivered to the SLAF were blown up during a terrorist attack by Tamil Tigers at Katunayake Air Base. This happened the day before official formation of the aircraft's unit, 14 Squadron, though with this now firmly in the past training on the aircraft is well established. Four Pakistan Air Force instructor pilots on a one-year secondment to Katunayake are assisting the squadron's first commanding officer, Sqn Ldr S Hendawitharana, with training operations. To date, over 700 hours have been flown on the SLAF K-8s and two classes of four students have gained their wings. A further four had just started ground school by late January.

The students come from the 1st FTW at Anuradhapura where they will have spent 100 hours flying the Nanchang PT-6. K-8 operations are an international affair, with 15 Chinese personnel from CATIC providing an engineering warranty support and on-job training for 18 months.
The SLAF would like to acquire more K-8s, possibly up to 12, though this will depend on whether the government is willing to release funds. Any such release could be in doubt if the cease-fire, which was extended for a second month on January 24, continues.

Source: AirForces Monthly, March 2002.

[Gaf]

Originally posted by Usman Shabbir
Sri Lanka's K-8 Training

The Chinese/Pakistani jet trainer, the K-8 Korakorum, has now been serving the Sri Lankan Air Force, (SLAF) for six months. There was a disastrous start to the aircraft's SLAF service on July 24 last year when three of the six aircraft delivered to the SLAF were blown up during a terrorist attack by Tamil Tigers at Katunayake Air Base. This happened the day before official formation of the aircraft's unit, 14 Squadron, though with this now firmly in the past training on the aircraft is well established. Four Pakistan Air Force instructor pilots on a one-year secondment to Katunayake are assisting the squadron's first commanding officer, Sqn Ldr S Hendawitharana, with training operations. To date, over 700 hours have been flown on the SLAF K-8s and two classes of four students have gained their wings. A further four had just started ground school by late January.

The students come from the 1st FTW at Anuradhapura where they will have spent 100 hours flying the Nanchang PT-6. K-8 operations are an international affair, with 15 Chinese personnel from CATIC providing an engineering warranty support and on-job training for 18 months.
The SLAF would like to acquire more K-8s, possibly up to 12, though this will depend on whether the government is willing to release funds. Any such release could be in doubt if the cease-fire, which was extended for a second month on January 24, continues.

Source: AirForces Monthly, March 2002.

At this rate, PAF will become the "smallest" operator of the K8 aircraft, odd, considering that it was partner in it's development....

[Usman Shabbir]

At this rate, PAF will become the "smallest" operator of the K8 aircraft, odd, considering that it was partner in it's development....

Actually, no. The Chinese have similar number of aircraft in service. PAF is not taking deliveries of any more K-8s at the moment because there is no urgent need for them, since the T-37 were upgraded and they are doing fine for now.

[Usman Shabbir]

Airman goes crazy at Sargodha air base, kills 6 colleagues
(Updated at 1500 PST)
ISLAMABAD: At least six PAF airmen were shot dead by a colleague when a scuffle broke out at the country's main air force base, reports said Wednesday.

"One trigger-happy airman went crazy and shot dead six of his colleagues," a police officer said. The men were playing a board game when the fight broke out late Tuesday.

The shooting occurred at the Pakistan Air Force base at Sargodha in Punjab province. Sargodha is country’s main air base and has been on the highest state of alert since mid-December amid border tensions with India.

www.jang.com.pk

[yasser]

Looks like the constant state of alert is finally starting to show on our forces......

We need to stand these guys down and give them a little R&R!

[osman]

Shocking beyond belief , just read on the website of the News international pakistan www.jang.com.pk
I hope something like this never happens again

Airman goes crazy at Sargodha air base, kills 6 colleagues
(Updated at 1500 PST)
ISLAMABAD: At least six PAF airmen were shot dead by a colleague when a scuffle broke out at the country's main air force base, reports said Wednesday.

"One trigger-happy airman went crazy and shot dead six of his colleagues," a police officer said. The men were playing a board game when the fight broke out late Tuesday.

The shooting occurred at the Pakistan Air Force base at Sargodha in Punjab province. Sargodha is country’s main air base and has been on the highest state of alert since mid-December amid border tensions with India.

[Usman Shabbir]

I don't think it was due to "constant alert state" but due to pure human rage, the guy was playing a board game when this happened that's not being on duty!

[yasser]

Usman
It does not matter what exactly the guy was doing at the time, but as all are forces have been on alert for months now, it may make them tired,jumpy and shorten there temper.

[Usman Shabbir]

Actually it does very much matter what the guy was doing at the time since he seems to have gone bazark while playing a game! If the reason would have been constant alert status don't you think these sort of incidents have had happened more likely in the Army? Since they are most likely worst off in the field then an airman on a PAF base! You should read more on how long the PAF was on alert status during the past many years, including the 65, 71 and Afghan War before attributing one scuffle & firing incident to "constant alert state".

[Amer M]

Fighting over a board game? F%*k sake, this is beyond compehension :mad: I must admit this is the sort of rage one normally associates with uneducated dimwits and 'hot tempered' Pakistanis (of which theres no shortage of) let alone the cream of Pakistan and PAF.

Six 'airmen' dead must mean 6 pilots. F16 pilots I assume :(

That guys head should roll.

[Usman Shabbir]

Five shot dead as airman 'goes crazy': ISLAMABAD, Feb 27: At least five airmen were shot dead by a colleague when a scuffle broke out at the country's main air force base, police said today. "One trigger-happy airman went crazy and shot dead five of his colleagues," a police officer said. The men were playing a board game when the fight broke out. The gunman has been arrested and an investigation launched into the incident, an air force spokesman said. (AFP) (Posted @ 16:20 PST)

[Usman Shabbir]

Six 'airmen' dead must mean 6 pilots. F16 pilots I assume

If he had access to a gun then most likely he was a PAF security guard not a pilot and since he seems to have shot dead his colleagues with whom he was playing a board game, they are also most likely security personnel or technicians not pilots - no less a tragedy.

[nasim]

Dawn in reporting that a PAF airman got in a fight with others over a board game and began shooting at them. Reported that 5 people were killed.

This is simply unbelievable and unacceptable. Can anyone find any more details.

admin: I did not see this was already posted in military news thread. I dont have permission to erase the thread. I would appreciate it if you could erase this thread for me.

[Malghani]

What more details are you looking for Nasim? He has been arrested and the court of inquiry will be initiated.

That's a second incident of this kind in two days. Didn't a policeman shoot dead 6 folks yesterday before killing himself in Hyderabad.
These all seem random unrelated incidents. Unlike Indian soldiers killing their collegues in Kashmir for not getting a leave.

Two completely different extremes on either side of the border. One side is too harsh on their soldiers that's why there is an endemic of this sort of incidents on Indian side. While On Pakistani side, our soldier seem to be too relaxed that are dueling over board games. None the less very tragic, this person at Sargodha (in my opinion) is more evil than the Indian soldiers who have killed their officers because they haven't been allowed to see their families for an extended time. Its a human urge to see the close ones and at some point in their life its just too much to be away from the known ones. But killing people over a board game..... Just pure evil.

[Gul Khan]

This report should not be posted here.

[Maruf29]

C'mon guys, relax. In mid 70's, General Ziaur rahman of Bangladesh killed almost 90% of air officers for airforce's alleged involvement in a military coup. Ofcourse in this particular PAF case, the magnitude and the cause of the event are different though. But things happen in the armed forces that's all I am trying to say.

Maruf

[osman]

Here the deatils of the shooting

Airman kills 6 PAF colleagues

ISLAMABAD: An air force technician shot dead six colleagues on Wednesday following an argument over a board game, officials said. Mohammed Nasir became angry during a disputed game of carum pulled out his pistol and started shooting, Wing Commander Shuja Alam told The Associated Press by telephone from Sargodha air base, some 220 kilometres south of here.

After shooting his colleagues, Nasir hid in the radar room and exchanged shots with police before he was apprehended, other officials said. An investigation is under way to determine what charges may be filed, officials said.--AP

Reuters adds: "Yes, I can confirm there had been killings but we are trying to get full details about the incident," army spokesman Brigadier Saulat Reza said of the incident at Sargodha city.

"It's a sensitive matter, unless an official version comes, we cannot give you details... I am not in a position to provide you specific numbers (of people killed)." Intelligence
sources said four people died on Tuesday night and two Wednesday morning, in what appears to be fighting between the two groups of airmen.

Meanwhile, a press release issued by the PAF said: "While playing indoor games at PAF base Sargodha, a scuffle took place amongst the airmen. In this unfortunate incident one of them started indiscriminate shooting which resulted in the death of six airmen, says a press release here. The accused has been arrested. A court of inquiry has been convened by the PAF authorities to establish the facts of the incident

[Abbas]

What's a technician doing with a firearm? PAF really needs to do psych profiling before recruiting anyone, not just pilots. I really can't believe this - committing murder over carum?

NavBaby.

[Amer M]

Moments of rage have occured in many armed forces and though one would expect it more common in the lower ranks, I don't think any amount of screening could filter out such an individual since this was an extraordinary bizzare moment of rage.

I've heard of mass brawls over Cricket matches but killing over a board game is out of this world. I think the subsequent argument and most likely collegues holding him back or even ganging up on him may have led him into this fit of rage. I don't think anyone would do it because they missed their turn or something :eek:

[FarazA]

I think it wasn't just a board game. Usually we see killing like these in some sort of Gambling, or bets. I can't say for sure but it is surely disturbing.

[nasim]

malaghani
What do you mean what more details do I want.
You cant just throw out these presumptions about our soldiers being relaxed and yet still doing something like this. These could all be unrelated incidents but so are all the incidents in indian occupied kashmir. Do you think they have some sort of 'shoot up the guy next to you club' over there where they coordinate killing their superior officer. They all might be related to the bad conditions of the indian army in kashmir but they are all separate acts of violence. There is something seriously wrong with someone when they do something like this and the fact that no one caught it or no system was in place to moniter people that might be having a hard time shows things need to be looked into.

I would not call this deuling over a board game and I would not presume that our soldiers are relaxed simply because it was over a board game. Playing a board game simply shows your not on duty 24 hours a day. Killing over a board game shows either 2 things. One, like I mentioned above, this guy was having a hard time for some reason and no one was there to watch out for people like these and get them some help or no one caught on fast enough to offer help. We are all humans and maybe some one in family is sick or some hardships are putting him in the wrong state of mind in these high alert times that the military is in. Second, this guy was stressed to the max and just snapped at some small comment or something like that. there are many reasons for explaining what happened, these only being 2 of them. Only an investigation can determine these things.

This is why I would not presume anything about the state of someone who takes actions into his own hands like this guy. If the investigation came down to simply comparing indians in kashmir to pakistanis playing board games, then a lot of people are not doing their jobs right.

[FarazA]

http://members.tripod.ca/shaohz/news08.html

Above URL have some J-10 pics, I know some are fake but couple of them looks pretty real.

[nasim]

Although they are getting US engines and other equipment now, this sounds too much like the Arjun experience.


From Janes
At last, an LCA order

By Simon Michell, Changi

The long-awaited order from the Indian Air Force for the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has finally been awarded, HAL chairman, Mr N R Mohanty, announced 27 February at the Asian Aerospace 2002 exhibition.

The Indian Air Force has ordered a limited series production of eight aircraft with delivery of the first one in 2006.

In a further announcement Mohanty went on to say that the Intermediate Jet Trainer, the HJT-36 which will replace the Kiran for Stage II training, will have its first flight by the end of 2002 and is due for delivery in 2004.

[H Khan]

Lockheed Martin Corp, Lockheed Aeronautics Co, Fort Worth, Texas is being awarded a $12,715,890,000 (estimated) contract to provide for the Falcon 2020 program. This programme includes engineering services and technical support, foreign military sales directed repair and return, contractor support, acquisition development and integration, and supplies in support of the F-16 weapon system for a 23-year period. This effort support foreign military sales to Belgium, Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Bahrain, Egypt, Pakistan, Greece, Israel, Jordan, Korea, Portugal, Singapore, Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey and Venezuela.

[omear]

got this from CMF thanks to santa

Displayed during the current Singapore Aviation expo... The 999 article also said the PLAAF will buy 100 FC-1s and will probably use the Russian Phazotron Kopyo radar (Grifo also possible) but NOT the Israeli Elta 2023.



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Expo pics from *....

[omear]

one more of the s-7 radar btw does anyone have the specs how many modes how many targets simultaneously and range??

[H Khan]

Great discovery!

This a Grifo S 7 radar

[SyedA]

S-7 being tested?

[Fahad]

whoa
IT CANT BE!:confused: :eek:
or can it?
theres a pilot in there and the aircraft definately looks like an S-7 doesnt it?

[Boota Masih]

we have gone through this pic before - a definate fake - where is the ejection seat?

[Mo Khan]

Guys, that's a close-up shot of the static FC-1 that was rolled out last year. It's not the real prototype! :p

[SyedA]

Thanks to CMF


Fiar's grifo air to air capability is somewhat known but relatively less is known for the air to ground modes, esp. one being fitted for the pakistan version for S7. It could carry following component modes :

1.air to ground ranging during CCIP attack mode.

2.real beam (argon green display for night time mapping) ground mapping or "ground mapping/ terrain tracking."

3.sea tracking (looks likely to be incorporated)

4.image freeze capability (very likely)

5.expanded beam scanning (likely)

6.doppler beam sharpening (mostly likely to be incorporated,export version may not include it.)

7.terrain avoidance and following (unlikely to be included in the initial version/export version.)

8.ground moving target indicator(upto speeds of <1.0 mach)

Any other component for air to ground mode? How would you compare it with russian pkazotron kopyo?

[SyedA]

ALAN GEORGE / LONDON

Investigators have visited Saudi Arabia to consider possible solution to high losses

A long line of crashes of Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF) BAE Systems Hawks, Boeing F-15 Eagles and Panavia Tornados during training is causing mounting concern in Riyadh, London and Washington DC, and has prompted the despatch of investigation teams from the manufacturers.

Losses over the past three years alone have included at least three Hawks, six Tornados and seven F-15s.

The Hawks and Tornados were supplied under the "arms for oil" Al Yamamah deal, with BAE providing training for RSAF pilots and instructors, with the aim of eventually eliminating the need for foreign instructors.

The latest accident was in mid-February when two Hawks of the RSAF display team collided during practice at the Tabuk air base near the border with Jordan. Both pilots ejected safely. It followed the loss of another Hawk two years ago.

In early December a Saudi instructor and student were killed when their Tornado IDS, based at Dhahran, flew into the ground while the instructor was in control. The instructor had already been fined a month's pay as a penalty for undertaking a dangerous manoeuvre.

Six months ago another Dhahran-based Tornado IDS crashed after the instructor took control at low level and attempted to barrel-roll over powerlines. The instructor and student ejected.

A Tornado instructor and squadron commander were injured early last year after ejecting from their Tornado IDS at 2,000ft having failed to recover from a spin. In early 2000 a Tornado IDS was flown into the ground by a trainee showing off to colleagues. At the time the navigator was using a mobile telephone. Witnesses were unsurprised that a mobile phone was involved. "Saudi ground engineers often load live weapons while using their mobile phones," says a source. In early 1999 two Tornado ADVs collided while flying at night.

In the past year the RSAF has also lost five F-15s, either at night or in bad weather. Three years ago two others were lost together with their crew, after colliding.

At the RSAF's request, a BAE team, headed by Derek Reeh, director of flight operations, visited the kingdom last year. They were unable to provide any solutions to the problem and merely gave the Saudis a general briefing on aircraft handling. BAE declines to comment further.

A US team also visited the kingdom to investigate the F-15 crashes, distributing a questionnaire and interviewing aircrew.
__________

According to the 'Gulf Air War Debrief' published by Aerospace publishing (btw, I highly recommend this book to anyone who is interested in a very comprehensive study of the air arms, attacks, in depth operations and losses sustained in the gulf war) the Kuwaiti and Saudi pilots were seen as real 'cowboys', thouroughly unprofessional with average flying skills. This is also attributed to the fact that anyone with royal 'connections' (i.e.- extended royal family members) are given preference over others. Most of them are mainly interested in flying a fast jet and have no real interest in learning combat maneuvers.

Courtesy: AFM forum, http://www.keymags.co.uk/dcforum/DCForumID2/4523.html

[nausherwan]

Pakistan air force to inaugurate new China-made fighters
AFP
Islamabad, March 11

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Pakistan air force said on Monday it would phase out its venerable F6 fighters on March 27 and replace them with the Chinese multi-role F7-PG, state-run media reported.
Air force spokesman Air Commodore Qadeer Ahmed Hashmi told Associated Press of Pakistan that the F6s, which were used in the 1971 war against India, would be retired in a ceremony at the Samungalli air force base in the southwestern city of Quetta.

The phase out would mark the induction of the new F7-PG fighters, he said.

The majority of the 40 F7-PG aircraft ordered from China have already arrived, APP said.

[Naeem]

By Shakil Shaikh

ISLAMABAD: Chinese multi-role F-7PG aircraft will be inducted into the Pakistan Air Force on March 27 at Quetta. The induction will also see grounding or phasing out of a 30 years old Chinese F-6 aircraft. The F-7PG induction ceremony, which was to be held on the occasion of joint services parade on March 23, will now be held at Quetta, where a PAF squadron had been keeping the aging F-6 airborne. Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mushaf Ali Mir to be the chief guest on the occasion.

It is learnt that 20 F-7PG aircraft have already arrived in Pakistan. A total of 40 aircraft are to be delivered. "The ceremony will be held at Quetta to pay tributes to the province and its brave people and the martyrs from the province," said a senior official.

Pakistan's first fighter squadron, 23-squadron, was based at Quetta, and now the new Chinese arrival will be made part of this squadron. On the other hand, the PAF's mainstay F-6 will be phased out after keeping it for more than 30 years in the force.

All the former PAF chiefs, high-ranking officials and several civilian dignitaries have been invited to witness the induction of the Chinese plane. Pakistan has K-8, FT-5 (MiG-17), F-6 (MiG-19) and F-7 (MiG-21) Chinese aircraft in the PAF fleet. The Sino-Pak joint venture of Super-7 is also going on according to the plan as its first prototype will be flown next year.


Taken from: www.jang.com.pk/thenews

[SyedA]

THE CHINESE/Pakistan jet trainer, the K-8 Korakorum, has
now been serving the Sri Lanka Air Force, (SLAF) for six months
(adding to Sri Lanka Deliveries, March 2001, p14). There was a
disastrous start to the aircraft's SLAF service on July 24 last year
when three of the six aircraft delivered to the SLAF were blown
up during a terrorist attack by Tamil Tigers at Katunayake Air
Base.

This happened the day before official formation of the aircraft's
unit, 14 Squadron, though with this now firmly in the past
training on the aircraft is well established. Four Pakistan Air
Force instructor pilots on a one-year secondment to Katunayake
are assisting the squadron's first commanding officer, Sqn Ldr S
Hendawitharana, with training operations. To date, over 700
hours have been flown on the SLAF K-8s and two classes of
four students have gained their wings. A further four had just
started ground school by late January.

The students come from the 1st FTW at Anuradhapura where they will have spent 100 hours flying the Nanchang PT-6. K-8
operations are an international affair, with 15 Chinese personnel
from CATIC providing an engineering warranty support
and on-the-job training for 18 months.

The SLAF would like to acquire more K-8s, possibly up to 12,
though this will depend on whether the government is
willing to release funds. Any such release could be in doubt if
the cease-fire, which was extended for a second month on
January 24, continues.

[Usman Shabbir]

Grifo S7 radar offered for China’s FC-1 fighter

By Yihong Chang, JDW correspondent

Italy’s FIAR SpA is using Asian Aerospace 2002 to promote the Grifo S-7 airborne radar for China’s FC-1 fighter.

The Grifo S-7 has more than 25 modes, including air-to-air and air-to-surface functions. Its guaranteed in-service mean time between failures (MTBF) is 220 hours. However, no further details have been released so far.

A source from FIAR also said that the company bid three different types of airborne radar system for China’s J7 fighter upgrade programme: the Grifo-MG, Grifo-MK2 and Grifo-7. These three systems have basically the same features and all have air-to-air and air-to-surface modes. The air-to-air operation includes searching and single target tracking, while the air-to-surface operation includes ranging and so on. The Grifo-MK2 has a weight of 56kg, operates in the X bands and has an MTBF of 200 hours. It also has look down and look up functions.

China’s CATIC also displayed a new model of the FC-1 at the show. A source from CATIC revealed to Jane’s that there was a breakthrough in FC-1 research last year. At this time just one full-size mock-up has been manufactured, but a first prototype is in the manufacturing process and will be completed in the early spring of 2003, according to the project schedule. The consequence of this would be a first test flight following the Chinese New Year in 2003.
The first prototype will be equipped with an Israeli Elta Type 2032 radar for the purpose of an airborne fire control system test only. Chengdu Aircraft Industries Group (CAIG) currently has two Type 2032 radar systems.

The FC-1 prototype will use RD93 turbofan engines. So far CATIC has four RD93s, which is sufficient for flight trials. With the RD93, the FC-1 would have a weapon load capacity of 3.8 tons.

China's air force is planning a replacement programme with 100 FC1s, the export designation of which remains ‘Super 7’. The final types of radar and fire control system have not yet been determined, although the FC-1 type that goes into volume production will apparently not be equipped with the Type 2032 radar. China has imported two sets of the Kopyo radar system made by Russian firm Phazotron-NIIR, which is possibly related to the development of the FC-1 to be used by its air force. Now, however, Italy’s FIAR is jumping into the competition.

In order to improve the FC-1's flight-control performance, CATIC has developed a new generation of dual-redundant longitudinal fly-by-wire system. For the lateral control system, the traditional mechanical control is still being used.

The FC-1 project has received an investment of US$150 million, including $75 million from Pakistan.

(More details on this will appear in forthcoming editions of Jane’s Defence Weekly.)

www.janes.com

[Sultan]

I would like to explore the possibility of the PAF acquiring a 5th generation aircraft. Although members may think it too soon to explore this possibility seeing as how the PAF has yet to acquire a 4th genenration aircraft , however I feel that this is an important aspect to be discussed. This is mainly due to the fact that with Pakistans foreign policy eventually being redirected from Indian centricity to one that covers a global aspect, as national interests are bound to dictate in the future. Thus, the more Islamabad attempts to expand its area of influence the more likely we will encounter hostilities from other global powers. Hence it is vital to maintain a technologically driven military which involves closing the technology gap whenever possible. Now in regards to the PAF which currently does and will continue to do so in the future, play a significant role in any military campaign it is vital for the PAF to induct the right weapons platforms in order to become capable of winning (or at least contributing significantly) a war through aerial power i.e. bombing the enemy into submission.

This brings me onto the subject of the PAF investing in the development of a 5th generation fighter e.g. S37 Berkut. I had mentioned this before however, I will restate this in light of the changing geopolitical scenario. Russia has been looking for a joint venture in the development of its 5th generation fighter programme. However, if I am not mistaken, I do believe that Russia has not been successful so far, in gaining a partner. Interest has been shown from India and it was widely reported in the Indian media. However, as usual the facts were exaggerated to a great extent. One has to keep in mind that all the military deals that have been trumpeted in the Indian media are not always what they seem to be. In regards to most military deals, a MOU has not even been signed as of yet between the respective parties. Then we have the Indian lobby in Moscow to contend with and the prospects of a future PAK-RUSSO joint fighter development programme cancelled due to political pressure. However, things are not as they used to be a few yrs back. Russia has longed decided to utilise their vast military industrial complex as a money making machine, much in the same way as France or Israel. Thus, Russia's reluctance to sell Pakistan weapons stems from the fact that they enjoy a good working relationship with India and the potential for huge military sales is there, something which the Russians would not want to upset. However, ever since the US declared India to be a long term strategic partner a steady flow of military technology from the US can be expected which in turn would be implemented in Indias indigenous projects. This poses a serious threat to Russia's domination of military sales to India. In the case of Pakistan it presents us with a perfect opportunity to be exploited for our own benefits. It provides us with a selling point. We can convince Russia to embark upon such a venture with us as it would provide Moscow with an excuse to apply pressure tactics upon India. Not only that Russia would have successfully obtained a partner and a 'saviour' in developing and manufacturing a 5th generation fighter (badly needed by the Russian airforce).

In the case of Pakistan, such a venture will provide us with a number of benenfits. Apart from the obvious military benefits, a further milestone for the aviation industry and the economic benefits as a result of exports this will also help to improve relations with Moscow - something which Islamabad has been looking at doing since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Issues such as the whole Afghanistan episode during the Cold war and the Taliban regime would be soon forgotten with a billion dollar military venture. An improved realtionship with Moscow will inevitably allow Islamabad to increase it influence thus eventually
ending Indias virtual monopoly over relations with Moscow. Furthermore, it is vital for Pakistan to increase relations with Russia in regards to our interests in the CIS. Furthermore, from a military perspective I dont see integrating an "eastern" platform to the current PAF inventory to be much of a problem. Afterall the PAF has integrated and operated eastern and western weapons platforms for the past many decades now. Also the PAF can get exactly what they want out this fighter as Pakistan will be involved in the R+D................

Furthermore, we can seek 3rd party participation in order to offset the cost of the project. The ME is one potential partner as they will have the capability to fund a large part of the project. An option Russia would like to use. Particiaption from China is not an option, unfortunately. The PLAAF is already involved with a number of major projects - FC1, J10, Su27, Su30 and I doubt they would want to get involved with yet another fighter programme. Iran is another potential partner. They have the necessary financing and technical skills required to become a useful partner. Furthermore they have the requirement for a 5th generation high tech fighter. Most likely theyre requirement will be fulfilled by the Russians, thus getting involved in a fighter programme would make a lot of sense. Once again such an option can be sold more easily to the Iranians especially at a time when they are on the US hitlist and the need for high tech weapons is probably one of Irans top priorities. Thus, A joint Pak-Russian-Iranian military project wil not only provide the obvious military benefits to all parties involved but will also assist in economic development and will strengthen relations between all parties involved. It is a win win situation and I believe should be an option that the PAF and GoP should look into. I wouldnt mind seeing S37 Berkuts providing air superiority along with Mirage 2000s/ Super 7 on a bombing sortie, would u??

[Sultan]

From AFM March 2002 issue :

On Jan 22 The US is reported to have tried to obtain Pakistani govt. approval for a 10 yr lease on around 20,000 acres of land to set up military bases, a no fly zone and related facilities for US ground troops and other service men in N.W. Baluchistan. US authorities have been discussing the issue over the past month with high ranking Pakistani officials.

According to a BBC report the British MoD has confirmed that it had conducted preliminary talks with PRC concerning the use of a Chinese airbase for operations over neighbouring Afghanistan. The ministry acknowledged that it would have been an unusual step for China to allow any western access to one of its bases.

[nausherwan]

Oh no, not again!!!!!

PAF plane crashes, pilot injured
(Updated at 1730 PST)
QUETTA: A Pakistan airforce plane crashed near Quetta Monday injuring the pilot, reports said.

The Chinese-made F-6 aircraft was on a "routine training mission" when it went down in hills overlooking the Sera Gorgari village, about eight kilometers north of here.

It crashed soon after taking off from Quetta's Samungali air base. The pilot ejected, suffering minor injuries.

[Usman Shabbir]

Fellows the new CD on No. 14 Squadron “Tail Choppers: 50 Years of Excellence” by JinTech (http://www.jintech.com.pk) is now available. If you want a copy then you can email them for order details at sales@jintech.com

[Usman Shabbir]

The F-6 pilot received only minor injuries.

[Usman Shabbir]

PAF jet crashes

By our correspondent

QUETTA: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-6, crashed in Saraghargai area on the outskirts of Quetta on Monday afternoon, official sources confirmed. The pilot safely ejected from the aircraft. The plane was on a routine flight when it crashed due to some technical fault. No loss of life or property was reported. Air headquarters had ordered an inquiry into the incident. Senior PAF officials reached the scene and supervised the rescue operation, the sources added.

www.jang.com.pk

[fahadaz]

I would like to know does Grifo S7 has Terrain Mapping.

[Malik]

Doesn anyone know about the Russian Mi28 sale to Pakistan?

[Malik]

Pak to roll out 150 fighter jets
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Author: Rahul Datta
Publication: The Pioneer
Date: November 10, 2000

The Pakistan Air Force will have an edge over the Indian Air Force (IAF) by the end of year 2003 when 150 FC-1 fighter jets start rolling out of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, near Ismalabad. These jets will be an improved version of MIG-33.

The designs of MIG-33 were acquired by China from Russia in 1998 shortly before the Kargil war and passed on to General Parvez Musharraf who was visiting China then. Costing Pakistan 15 million dollars per jet, these planes will be fitted with the Klimov Design Bureau (Russian company) RD-93 engines. They are a more powerful version of RD-33 engines fitted in MIG-29 jets flown by the IAF, the forthcoming edition of Security and Political Risk Analysis (SAPRA) journal reveals.

SAPRA is a non-governmental security think-tank of serving armed force officers and security analysts.

The deal to manufacture 150 FC-1 (Fighter China) jets was struck when General Musharraf visited China just before the Kargil war. He reportedly told the Chinese that the Pakistan Air Force was in a bad shape and urgently needed new generation of jets.

A Chinese company named Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation then approached the Russians and purchased the design of the MIG-33. The Russian company Mikoyan OKB Design Bureau, which designs all MIG series of aircraft, gave the design of MIG-33 to the Chinese, the journal states.

Pakistan and China had earlier entered in a joint venture to manufacture a fighter jet named Super-7. The project, however, never took off thereby causing concern amongst the Pakistani military strategists. They, therefore, approached the Chinese in1998 and managed to bag the design for an improved version of MIG-33 named FC-1.

This aircraft will be fitted with RD-93 engine, Russian made air-to-air missiles and fly-by-wire system besides avionics from a third party. Pakistan is likely to opt for a western firm for fitting avionics, the journal claims.

The Pakistan Air Force, at the moment, has 20 operational squadrons comprising the Chinese versions of MIG-19s and MIG-21s. The 20-squadron fleet also includes two squadrons of 40 F-16s. These aircraft, however, are now ageing and Pakistan failed to purchase the advanced version of F-16 from the United States of America.

The indigenously manufactured FC-1s will give Pakistan an edge over the IAF in the next five years, security strategists say. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) prototype of India, meanwhile, is yet to be tested. Its approval and subsequent production and induction into the IAF will take at least seven years, experts explain.

China has also embarked upon a massive modernisation plan of its air force. It will acquire and manufacture more than 300 SU-27 and SU-30 fighter jets. This will see China gaining air superiority over India by the year 2007. Incidentally, the IAF, till now, is considered superior to their Chinese counterparts, analysts say.

India has 35 operational squadrons including MIG-21, MIG- 29, Jaguars, Mirage and SU-30s. The IAF is getting its MIG-21 fleet upgraded in Russia. Strategists, however, are concerned over the fact that the IAF is unable to draft a 20-year perspective plan due to paucity of resources.

China and Pakistan, on the other hand, are rapidly modernising their air force to tilt the balance in their favour, informed sources admit.


www.hvk.org/articles/1100/21.html

Considering the fact the india still operated the MIG-29s, Mirages and had ordered their Su30s, also their BVR missiles the indian experts said tht PAF will have an edge over the IAF they know their pilot caliber

[Mohammed Ali]

Malik, the article you posted is full of factual mistakes and the author does not know jack what hes saying. I would recommend you stop taking such newspapers as your source of information.

Also, there have never been any Russian Mi-28 sales to Pakistan.

PS, what exactly do u do in NASA, if you dont mind me asking?

[Malik]

Mohammed Ali,

I came across this site when I was searching for news about Pakistani Super7 Project.

I am really hoping that Super7 will be better then F-16A/B because Pakistan needs a mid-tech fighter and F-16A/B are getting old. So far I haven't heard any news about upgrading Pakistani F-16s and talking about Major Upgrade.

There was news about Russia selling MI17 (Transport Helicopters) to Pakistan for Pakistani Army.

Someone in the Pakistandefense forum mention about Russia selling MI28 to Pakistan, I thought someone may have some info on that; however, I think South Africa's Rooivalk (Attack Helicopter) is better then Mi28

Actually I live in Houston but NASA is only about 20 minutes away from my house, I have been working for Compaq for last 3 years as a System support. My brother works in NASA for Lockheed Martin.

[fahadaz]

Kool man...