Arafat and Pakistan

[Usman Shabbir]

Posting this column from today's 'Nation' for archive purpose.

Arafat and Pakistan

By Brig (Retd) Saleem Zia

Since the sad demise of Yasser Arafat, a number of letters and articles have appeared in your esteemed paper. With reference to Mr. Humayun Gauhar’s article that appeared in your issue of Sunday, November 7 and Maj Gen Babar’s letter that appeared in the Readers Column of Nov 19, I wish to comment on their allusion to Black September 1970.
Mr. Gauhar in his article states “Jordan, Syria, and Pakistan tied to militarily destroy him (Arafat). Remember the infamous Black September when one Zaiul Haq helped lead the massacre of Palestinians in Jordan.” Similarly Maj Gen Babar refers to “the ruthless Massacre of Palestinians in 1970 in Jordan at the hands of Pakistani troops stationed in Jordan commanded by Brig Zia. As I was part of Pakistan Military Training Team that was in Jordan at the time I consider it my moral responsibility to clarify some of the misunderstanding contained in the two write-ups.
Though I cannot comment on the then Pakistan Government’s policy with respect to Palestinians and Arafat, I can state with confidence that Pak troops were not involved in the civil war in Jordan. The only troops located in Jordan were an Anti Aircraft unit that was located at H 5, an airfield far away from troubled Amman and the area north of it. Not a soldier from this unit moved from their base through out the unfortunate conflict.
The person who was in command of the entire contingent, Army and Air force, was Maj Gen Nawazish Ali and not Brig Zaiul Haq. I, in addition to being trainer/advisor to Jordanian Special Forces, was also a part-time staff officer to the General during those days. I therefore have the first hand knowledge of most of the developments of the time.
On arrival in Jordan all officers assigned to the Military Mission, including Brig Zaiul Haq, were required to read and sign a Govt letter that clearly forbade them from participating in the internal strife in Jordan. It is to my knowledge that we all read and signed that letter. Maj Gen Nawazish strictly followed the dictates of that letter. Just before the Black September, he foresaw the possibility of a civil war in Jordan. He sent a report to CGS in GHQ, forecasting the trouble between the Jordan Arab Army and the Palestinians. He also suggested the withdrawal of all Military personnel from Jordan; otherwise Pakistan will get a bad name amongst the Palestinians, the future power in the Arab world.
Having sent this report to Pakistan, the General showed it to the then ambassador of Pakistan in Jordan. The ambassador who, it appeared was more loyal to the King, disclosed its contents to the King of Jordan. The result was that the King, who consulted the General on every issue, sidelined him and dealt directly with Brig Ziaul Haq, Air Commodore Abbasi and the Ambassador. The trio thus became more of king’s men than officers in the pay of Pakistan.
On the fateful day of commencement of the trouble between the Jordan Army and the Palestinians, Gen Nawazish told me to convey to all the officers that they need not go to work and must remain in their houses. I conveyed these orders to all the officers and they restricted themselves to their houses; only Brig Ziaul Haq rudely objected to the order. Soon an armoured vehicle took him from his house and he was flown in a helicopter to Northern Jordan.
An armoured Brigade and an Infantry Division located in the North had got jittery and were preparing to withdraw, as Syrians attacked from the North and the Palestinians cut their line of communication to the south. As soon as Brig Ziaul Haq arrived in the area, the Jordanian Army officers and troops collected themselves and put up a good fight against the Syrians.
The Jordanian air force, under the guidance of Air Commodore Abbasi, also inflicted heavy casualties on the Syrian tanks brigade. Incidentally Syrian air force did not come into action because Israel had warned Hafiz al Asad and the Israeli planes were flying above the battle zone through out. General Nawazish all this time was a captive in his house as it was surrounded by security troops.
I have gone to this length to put the record straight. The Government was not working against the Palestinians and no troops other than the person of Ambassador, Brig Zia and Air Commodore Abbasi, took part in the fight against Arafat and the Palestinian. Incidentally Gen Nawazish put Brig Ziaul Haq on adverse report but unfortunately he (the General) died soon after coming back to Pakistan and Gen Gul Hassan expunged the adverse remarks and Brig Zia went on to become the Chief of the Army; of course he was selected by Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto.
I hope Maj Gen Babar, a friend of mine and Mr. Humayun Gauhar would not mind my correcting them. I have no intention of starting any controversy.

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/nov-2004/22/columns4.php

[Harisz]

interesting, i wonder which side is to be believed. in any case gen Babar's version is always doubtful...

[DrQazi]

OK! Brig. Saleem sahib says this in short:
Arafat and Pakistan

By Brig (Retd) Saleem Zia

1. I cannot comment on the then Pakistan Government’s policy with respect to Palestinians and Arafat,
2. I can state with confidence that Pak troops were not involved in the civil war in Jordan.
3. He [Maj. Gen Nawazish] sent a report to CGS in GHQ, forecasting the trouble between the Jordan Arab Army and the Palestinians.
4. He [Maj. Gen Nawazish] also suggested the withdrawal of all Military personnel from Jordan;
5. Maj. Gen Nawazish was worried that Pakistan will get a bad name amongst the Palestinians, the future power in the Arab world.
6. On the fateful day of commencement of the trouble between the Jordan Army and the Palestinians, Gen Nawazish told me to convey to all the officers that they need not go to work and must remain in their houses.
7. An armored Brigade and an Infantry Division located in the North had got jittery and were preparing to withdraw, as Syrians attacked from the North and the Palestinians cut their line of communication to the south.
8. As soon as Brig Ziaul Haq arrived in the area, the Jordanian Army officers and troops collected themselves and put up a good fight against the Syrians.
9. The Jordanian air force, under the guidance of Air Commodore Abbasi, also inflicted heavy casualties on the Syrian tanks brigade.
10. The Government was not working against the Palestinians and no troops other than the person of Ambassador, Brig Zia and Air Commodore Abbasi, took part in the fight against Arafat and the Palestinian.


Here is my analysis.

This is the worst possible analysis I have seen. Arafat and other Palestinians were on the ground cutting off Jordanian army from the south. This clearly was an act of war against Jordan and Pakistani army was sent there to help protect Jordan from precisely that kind of threat.

Maj. Gen. Nawazish had clearly made wrong assessment that Palestinians would be the future power of the Arab world. Years following black September clearly show that Egyptians, Syrians, and Jordanians made sure that Palestinians never become a power. Arafat’s misguided policies didn’t help either. The result is that Palestinians are the lowest of the low in Middle Eastern power play as of today. They are mere pawns to be consumed by suicides or to be slaughtered by IDF.

Maj. Gen. Nawazish and his followers like Brig. Saleem were clearly sidelined by Pakistani government while smarter folks like Brig Ziaul Haq and Air Commodore Abbasi were moved up in the ranks.

Brig. Saleem’s statement defies military strategy that Zia single handedly turned Jordanian brigade around. A demoralized army needs fresh blood in terms of both generals and foot soldiers. Pakistani troops provided exactly that. We should be proud that Pak army saved Jordan from becoming another Lebanon. Syrians and Palestinians are simply anarchists who have no regard from their hosts. Given a chance, they would simply destroy any land where they invade.

Brig. Saleem is more like the later incarnation like Gen. Aslam Beg. Thanks to Beg, Pakistanis refused to play their vital part in defense of Pakistani interests in Saudi Arabia. The result was that Pakistani army was kicked out of Arabian Peninsula after Gulf War-1.

More comments later!

[Usman Shabbir]

Brig. Saleem is more like the later incarnation like Gen. Aslam Beg. Thanks to Beg, Pakistanis refused to play their vital part in defense of Pakistani interests in Saudi Arabia. The result was that Pakistani army was kicked out of Arabian Peninsula after Gulf War-1.


Pakistani brigade was withdrawn from the SA long before the 1st Gulf War, hence the reason for withdrawing had nothing to do with the 1st Gulf War.

[Wajih Ur Rehman]

Pakistani brigade was withdrawn from the SA long before the 1st Gulf War, hence the reason for withdrawing had nothing to do with the 1st Gulf War.


Usman,

If I remembered correctly , Pakistani Army was in SA when Gulf War started. There was an incident in some border city between Pakistani and US Army and some Pakistani soldiers lost their lives as well. Correct me if I am wrong!

Wajih

[TahirN]

If I remembered correctly , Pakistani Army was in SA when Gulf War started. There was an incident in some border city between Pakistani and US Army and some Pakistani soldiers lost their lives as well. Correct me if I am wrong!Yes, i remember this.. i think several troops were killed in an exchange between US and Pakistani troops during the build up of forces before the launch of the first Gulf war.

I can't remember the reasons why this happened... I can't find anything on the net about this event :confused:

[Usman Shabbir]

Usman,

If I remembered correctly , Pakistani Army was in SA when Gulf War started. There was an incident in some border city between Pakistani and US Army and some Pakistani soldiers lost their lives as well. Correct me if I am wrong!

Wajih

Pakistani troops were not in the SA when Iraq invaded Kuwait but were deployed afterwards for a short duration as part of the UN force. The incident I am referring to (when Pakistan pulled out its troops) happened during the Zia era – at that time one entire Pakistani brigade was deployed in SA.

[SSAAD]

DrZia,

When you make these statements, please back them up aside from posting your own opinion . Brig. Saleem Zia (an SSG officer) is right in his assertion that "NO" pakistani troops actively took part in the bloodshed!

My father (also of SSG) knows this officer and also knew about the role of the Pakistani Army..Pakistani units basically held up the fort in terms of securing vital points etc., but Jordanians did the fighting (they are well trained and motivated soldiery)....Pakistani commanders had been involved in training and thus the leadership that Zia provided was of benefit to them....contrary to your statement "A demoralized army needs fresh blood in terms of both generals and foot soldiers.", there is no proof that Jordanian army was demoralized....they were expecting this trouble for sometime and when it happened, they needed leadership which was provided by both the Jordanian officers and the Pakistanis mentioned in Brig Zia's letter.

Pakistani state policy is to not interfere in the intra-Arab issues. This is the reason that Pakistan has taken a neutral, however concilliatory approach towards all issues. Saudis not being happy or Jordanians not being happy have never been long term issues. The Pakistani population would not support Pakistani govt if it were to take sides between two conflicting arab/muslim parties....lastly, the officers and men in Jordan were on instructional and training secondment. The were not there in the role of the Pakistani bde deployed SA in the 80s...i.e. in a combat role (I should add against the Jordanian populace, however they ould have assisted in case of hostilities against the Israelis).

[osman]

Arafat had never much love for the Pakistan, he loved to chum up BB like he did to indians. After getting all the diplomatic and moral support from us he was seeing kissing the indians while they were buthering kashmiris.

[DrQazi]

...."NO" pakistani troops actively took part in the bloodshed!
....Pakistani units basically held up the fort in terms of securing vital points etc., but Jordanians did the fighting ...
....Pakistani commanders had been involved in training and thus the leadership that Zia provided was of benefit to them.....
OK Saad I understand what you are saying. Pakistani soldiers may not have shot Palestinian insurgents directly. The insurgents however felt that they would have defeated Jordanian army had it not been the Pakistani army's help for Jordan.

The bottom line is that the Palestinian insurgents were destroyed thanks to the tactical assistance, and operational planning by the Pakistanis.

Pakistani army should be proud that they actively helped stop the Palestinian maddness and saved Jordan from becoming Lebanon.



..... (I should add ....however they ould have assisted in case of hostilities against the Israelis).
Please stay away from these careless statements. Pakistani army has never considered Israel as an enemy. In fact Brig. Saleem says that Israeli air force helped Pakistanis and Jordanians.

[Rafaqat]

In fact Brig. Saleem says that Israeli air force helped Pakistanis and Jordanians.

Oh yeah ? and how exactly ?

[SSAAD]

"Please stay away from these careless statements. Pakistani army has never considered Israel as an enemy. In fact Brig. Saleem says that Israeli air force helped Pakistanis and Jordanians."

Dr saheb, this is not a careless statement (although I can see the point you are trying to make). Read Brig Z A Alam's memoirs (search for "the way it was"). The Pakistani army was actually requested by both the Syrians and the Jordanians to assist in advisory roles.

This is the same reason that Brig Saleem Zia (like Brig Z A Alam) was assigned to the Jordanian special forces and many others like him to assist in planning and training in case hostilities started again. Keep in mind that PAF pilots seconded to the arab airforces participated in CAPs and in certain cases actual combat against the Israelis...just because they happened to be there. The PA detachments in Jordan were in similar situation.

This is post 1967 6 day war.

[SSAAD]

Oh yeah ? and how exactly ?

I think he is refering to part where the Israelis kept the Syrians from participating in the PLO revolt against the Jordanian forces (indirect help, however they were looking out for their own interests which entailed destruction of PLO forces)..

[DrQazi]

..... Keep in mind that PAF pilots ...in certain cases actual combat against the Israelis...
This is post 1967 6 day war.
Any links to this news item?
"Please stay away from these careless statements. "
Dear Saad, as I said any bombastic statements about Pak army going against the West should be avoided. There is nothing to gain and everything to lose. Our army (and our country) needs 20 years of sustained development just to become decent power in the region. Until that time we have to avoid pitting ourselves where odds of winning are extremely low.

Just on the side! Why do you insist on involving PAF with the losers in the Middle East? Arabs always got drubbing from Israel air force. Both 67 and 73 are a proof of that.

[SSAAD]

Any links to this news item?

Dear Saad, as I said any bombastic statements about Pak army going against the West should be avoided. There is nothing to gain and everything to lose. Our army (and our country) needs 20 years of sustained development just to become decent power in the region. Until that time we have to avoid pitting ourselves where odds of winning are extremely low.

Just on the side! Why do you insist on involving PAF with the losers in the Middle East? Arabs always got drubbing from Israel air force. Both 67 and 73 are a proof of that.


For the first one, read PAF official history (1948-1988). There is ample documentation on the PAF involvement.

Secondly, you seem to miss the whole point. What happened was in the past! As was the case, Pakistanis have natural affinity towards the arabs for obvious reasons and for many other political reasons, Pakistan helped diplomatically, militarily and even financially. These may sound like bombastic statements to you (why I am not sure, although it seem that you are trying to be PC, but keep in mind that in the 60s and 70s, Pakistan policy was not based around the nuances of the present)...in any case, I have provided references to you. Its your duty to put the appropriate dilligence into the matter and read it before discounting them. I can assure you, most of the members are aware of these facts...and I believe in recounting history, we should not have to think about being PC..especially when Pakistan has not done any thing to harm Israeli interests in the recent past, yet the Israelis assist India (keeping in mind their own interests, for which I do not blame them). In conclusion, I personally think that your opinion on this issue is teetering on the brink of being apologetic for Pakistan's past...well sir to set matters square, I am not going to be apologetic. We did what made sense for us....no need to hide it..as far as who came out winners and who came out losers, that was not a concern for Pakistan then as the assistance was provided in the spirit of brotherliness and not for any material gains..

[DrQazi]

For the first one, read PAF official history (1948-1988). There is ample documentation on the PAF involvement...
OK I checked out the Pakistani air force history site. Here is what they say about PAF foreign missions in the middle east.

---7th Jun, 1967 Flight Lieutenant Saiful Azam destroyed one Israeli Mirage and one Vatour bomber in Iraq.
---5th Jun 1967 encounter over the Jordanian air base Mafrak, Flight Lieutenant Saiful Azam shot down an Israeli Super Mystere and damaged another.
---26th April, 1974 Flight Lieutenant A. Sattar Alvi (flying a MIG) shot down one Israeli Mirage over Golan heights.

I crosschecked with Israeli air force site and they do accept losing 3 planes over Iraq. May be Saiful Azam took down two of those. However I wasn't able to confirm the kills from Jordanian or Syrian sites.


....and I believe in recounting history, we should not have to think about being PC..especially when Pakistan has not done any thing to harm Israeli interests in the recent past,
...
Yeap! it is not good to be PC during historical analysis. Although our media (this website included) is heavily tilted towards Arabs even at the cost of Pakistani interests. The same PAF site talks about one mission in 1969 in South Yemen without giving a clearer detail. However they are more than happy to pinpoint their actions against Israel.

Also there was no mention of PAF related activities against Palestinian uprising in Jordan. Seems like our historians are being forced to be PC when it comes to Arabs.


...especially when Pakistan has not done any thing to harm Israeli interests in the recent past, yet the Israelis assist India (keeping in mind their own interests, for which I do not blame them)...
This is oft repeated Maulvi claim against Israel. Israel did sell us stuff during Afghan wars. Unfortunately we still follow the ignoramus logic and refuse to accept Israel, while Arabs sip tea in Tel-Aviv.

I am sure Israel would be happy to sell us toys when we'd accept the reality and initiate trade relations.

The argument against Israel-India trade is rather stupid. Big powers like China, UK, and France export things to India and we don't object. Our Arab brethren do billion $$ trade with India and we don't object. Heavens would fall if Israel sells things to India (I realize you personally are OK with Indo-Israeli links).


.....In conclusion, I personally think that your opinion on this issue is teetering on the brink of being apologetic for Pakistan's past...well sir to set matters square, I am not going to be apologetic.

We did what made sense for us....no need to hide it..as far as who came out winners and who came out losers, that was not a concern for Pakistan then as the assistance was provided in the spirit of brotherliness and not for any material gains..
Nothing to be apologetic here. Just setting the history straight. Bottom line is that Pakistan's role was much greater in crushing Arab militancy in Jordan and Yemen. Saving Jordan and Saudi Arabia were huge.

On the other hand if 2 PAF pilots downed 4 Israeli planes in 2 major wars, we could term it as individual heroism at the most. However the loss of 4 Israeli planes is trivial from Pakistani point of view if we look at humiliating defeat of Arabs in 67 + 74.

BTW when it comes to strategic interests of a country, there is no brother, sister, or friend. Remember Pakistan first!

[Usman Shabbir]

I crosschecked with Israeli air force site and they do accept losing 3 planes over Iraq. May be Saiful Azam took down two of those. However I wasn't able to confirm the kills from Jordanian or Syrian sites.


Jordan and Iraqi governments also credited Saif-ul-Azam with the Israeli kills - Government of Jordan conferred the Wisam al-Istiqlal (Order of Independence) on him while the Iraqi Government conferred the Nawţ al-Shuja’a (Medal of Bravery). You can read more about it here: http://www.pafcombat.com/great_air_battles.htm
Sattar Alvi was also awarded the Wisam al-Faris, one of Syria’s highest awards for gallantry for shooting down the Mirage-IIICJ in April 1974. This incident is also documented on the above mentioned link (Shahbaz Over Golan).

[Boota Masih]

Dr. Qazi,

There is no denying that Israel consider Pakistan as a long-term threat and that has nothing to do with our love or lack-of of love for the Arabs. It is every obvious that Israelis will do whatever they can to undermine our interest and are doing so every day. I do accept that Israel is a reality but as long as that dog Sharon is in incharge and he continues to do what he is doing to the Palistinians we have no business doing business with the Israelis. Few years ago Pakistani Chief of Air Staff met his Israeli counter part at a conference for an unofficial meeting. The message that pakistan gave to the Israelis was that our nuclear and missile program is India specific and not a threat to Israel. In return we expect you to stay our of our conflicts in South Asia. Implying do not sell any thing to India that will shift the strategic balance. What do the the Israelisdo? they sell the Phalcon to the India and are now talking about the arrow and other stuff. What it means for Pakistan is that we donot have to stay tied to our self imposed restrain vis-as-vis Israel. We can theoratically build missiles that can reach Israel and transfer technology and weapons to the arabs that can be a threat to Israel. I am not recomending that we should do the the latter, but if it ever happens, Israel will have no one to blame but themselves.

[Usman Shabbir]

Nothing to be apologetic here. Just setting the history straight. Bottom line is that Pakistan's role was much greater in crushing Arab militancy in Jordan and Yemen. Saving Jordan and Saudi Arabia were huge.


Sorry but I don’t see how you are setting the history straight! Do you have any facts and figure regarding how Pakistan ‘crushed Arab Militancy in Jordan and Yemen’ and how we saved ‘Saudi Arabia’?

[DrQazi]

Dr. Qazi,
.....It is every obvious that Israelis will do whatever they can to undermine our interest and are doing so every day. .
Dear Mr. Masih, Commies and now Russia is the biggest supplier of arms and ammo to India. France is #2. Would you go and "theoretically build missiles" against them too? I guess not!


I do accept that Israel is a reality but as long as that do& Sharon is in incharge and he continues to do what he is doing to the Palestinians we have no business doing business with the Israelis. .
Mr. Masih, You can't get more red-blooded Palestinian than Mahmood Abbas, and more authentic Arab than Hosni. If they can talk to Sharon without calling him names, why would a Pakistani use vulgarity against him?


What do the the Israelisdo? they sell the Phalcon to the India and are now talking about the arrow and other stuff. .
I'll see the day Arrow and Phalcon show up in India's hand. However we have to be realistic about Indian air force. They learned the lessons in 65 and improved themselves. We on the other hand remained in deep slumber until 71 when Indian air force shut us out. Heck we had to fly our "assets" out of country. Phalcon or no Phalcon Kargil again showed that India far exceeds in air power.


What it means for Pakistan is that we donot have to stay tied to our self imposed restrain vis-as-vis Israel. We can theoratically build missiles that can reach Israel and transfer technology and weapons to the arabs that can be a threat to Israel. I am not recomending that we should do the the latter, but if it ever happens, Israel will have no one to blame but themselves.
Please Mr. Masih, let's not get carried away and endanger Pakistan using these high flying bombastic statements. We already have AQK fiasco to deal with and you are getting us involved in even deeper mess.

If you carefully track India's plans, they never go around making Pakistan specific statements. Their nuke statement included China. Their navy is talking about anti-proliferation ops. We on the other hand sit at home and make country specific threats.

It is time now that Pakistan should sell its capabilities as peacemaker (as opposed to trouble maker). We have 700,000 strong military that can easily share 200,000 plus troops in peace making ops around the world.

p.s Pakistan First should be the motto for Pakistanis
Otherwise we'll get us involved in whole lot of troubles.

[Boota Masih]

Dear Mr. Masih, Commies and now Russia is the biggest supplier of arms and ammo to India. France is #2. Would you go and "theoretically build missiles" against them too? I guess not!


Mr. Masih, You can't get more red-blooded Palestinian than Mahmood Abbas, and more authentic Arab than Hosni. If they can talk to Sharon without calling him names, why would a Pakistani use vulgarity against him?


I'll see the day Arrow and Phalcon show up in India's hand. However we have to be realistic about Indian air force. They learned the lessons in 65 and improved themselves. We on the other hand remained in deep slumber until 71 when Indian air force shut us out. Heck we had to fly our "assets" out of country. Phalcon or no Phalcon Kargil again showed that India far exceeds in air power.


Please Mr. Masih, let's not get carried away and endanger Pakistan using these high flying bombastic statements. We already have AQK fiasco to deal with and you are getting us involved in even deeper mess.

If you carefully track India's plans, they never go around making Pakistan specific statements. Their nuke statement included China. Their navy is talking about anti-proliferation ops. We on the other hand sit at home and make country specific threats.

It is time now that Pakistan should sell its capabilities as peacemaker (as opposed to trouble maker). We have 700,000 strong military that can easily share 200,000 plus troops in peace making ops around the world.

p.s Pakistan First should be the motto for Pakistanis
Otherwise we'll get us involved in whole lot of troubles.

Dr. Qazi,

Your are twisting my statements. Russia and France have never conspired with with India to directly threaten Pakistani interest, the Israelis have. If India had agreed to Israeli proposals, Israelis would have conducted raids on Pakistani nuclear installations. Infact they even tried doing so alone. The points is the if senior Israeli leaders themselves say that Pakistan (and Iran) are longer-term threats to their country, who are you say that Pakistan and Israel should be friends.

How can some body be respectul to Sharon, the butcher of Sabra and Shattila. Hosni Mubarik is irrlevant and Mahmood Abbas is not talking to Sharon.

Who is being bombasitic and who is endangering Pakistan? AQ fiasco is behind us and has in no way impacted our nuclear or missile capability. Things have changed after 9/11. The motives of the West become apparent to even the most naive leadership in our part of the world. That don't say it in public, but every one now knows how the line have been drawn.

Come of it Dr. Qazi, India does not make Pakistani specific? what a joke, In the last stand-off a hardly a day went by without the Indian not threatening to nuke Pakistan.

Even you numbers are incorrect, Pakistan does not have a standing Army of 700,000 its more like 550,000 of which actual fighting forces are even less. Pakistan is still the biggest contributor to UN peace keeping forces. Each of the these operations require a few thousand men and by there very nature have to be multinational. Nobody needs 200,000 men for peacekeeping.

Lastly, I take offense to your statement calling Pakistan a trouble maker. Even if it was, there are certain benefits for Pakistan to be a nuisance. I even don't think your are a Pakistani, even if you are, you are one one those who have taken the western media and thought line, hook and sinker and have developed a inferiority complex about themselves and their country.

If you decide to continue to write on this forum, please make sure that you make sense because this forum attracts some very well informed and smart people and you will not survive long aganist them in any sober discussion.

[Mohsin]

Israel which is actively collaborating with India in missile technology and in fact every military field. Avionics upgrades and what not can never be thought of as Mr Qazi has tried to picture.

It considered PAF as merceneries and are ready to strike Pak Nuke infrastructure even now. They actively conspire against us because they know who we give support to our bretheren Arab nations.

I dont know if u have any Arab friends but let me tell u this that the day Pakistan conducted the Nuclear Tests (mind u INDIA specific :p ) I havent seen the level of respect they showed towards us before that.

Paksitan is deploying Armour brigade in SA. We have sold them trainer aircrafts. Provided pilot instructors and cooperation in any field u can think of. We always help the Arabs and therefore expecting Israel not to help India which can be very strategically beneficial for them is just plain foolishness.

The problem is not israel its us , we have let our selves down since 65. Look at what we can provide our armed forces. We need to educate ourselves and develop everything at home and most of all we need to develop our faith in ALlah. To stop relying on others is our main goal and to work diligently is what is required.

when we are working hard we wont worry of what people think of our statements.

I can tell u Indian Politics teachers and propoganda artists are working their asses off in Western universities to change peoples thinking. If we get scared by this then we loose.

We can raise our voice if we can or simply ignore and work hard ourselves.

This makes Israel and Pakistan enemies indirectly.

Israelis will always create trouble for us but they always wont put a big show or display. They will strike when the Iron is hot and believe me they are trying their best to raise the temperature.

Mind u Mr Qazi PAKISTAN FIRST is always in our hearts , that is why I believe most of us are here. I hope u r too.



I somewhat agree with u saying that instead of issuing threats we need to build up and very fast. Thats what we are doing but if u look at it seriously its really important to issue direct statements to INDIA to stop messing around. Those guys donot understand. I was in Lahore at the time both mounted forces on the border and i clearly listened to Indias statements along with the whole of Pakistan after their nuke tests.

And I also saw a drastic change in their sweeping statements days after our test.
SO please drop these ideas out of your mind that our policy towards Israel is wrong or that our statements are very bold.

Since i came in Toronto I had to give alot of shutup calls to my Indian classmates who left no opportunity to broadcast that they will Nuke Pakistan to bits if they only get a chance.

Kehtay hain Latoun kay bhoot baatoun say naheen mantay.

The fact is that Pakistan needs to get stronger so that our leaders can act without any pressures for the best of our country.

I am truely sorry for the dumb sermon but i have read most of ur posts and this one was seriously retarded. I do care that is why i took the time to wrote all this crap so that it may make any sense. Well hopefully u are more wise than me and a little hint would be enough.

[SSAAD]

Poor Indian sap finally got banned!!!! I knew it was coming (I was just trying to be PC by not blasting his arse when he posted all the stupid crap...but deep down I knew all the angles that he was trying to play)... :p

You know the interesting thing is that when a Pakistani complains about what is wrong with Pakistan, he/she does it with a style/manner that all of us are intuitively aware of. Time and again we find these poor inferiority-complex ridden neighbors of ours trying to fake us into thinking that they are "benevolent, Pakistan-well wishers, whose only goal is to improve things by pointing out the problems (which in other words is pushing the Indian agenda)....". I would have given this Dr. Qazi wanna-be guy more credit if he came in as an "out of the closet Indian" and said such are the issues he sees with Pakistani policy blah blah...but what is annoying is the stupid deception game that these losers play time and again and then get busted.....

They need to understand that there is a way to project the problems faced by Pakistan....but then I think how would they they know, they just dont understand cause its a Pakistani thaang!!!! :D

[Boota Masih]

Too bad he got banned a little early. I was just getting ready for dishing out some serious abuse.