Rashid Minhas Story

[Mazhar]

A few months back I had the opportunity along with a friend to spend an evening with Group Captain (R) Cecil Chaudry. Obviously the time was spent discussing his experiences. As it turned out Cecil was responsible for investigating the Rashid Minhas crash back in 1971 and told us a some details which are not known publicly.

The episode has become controversial over the past few decades with some people claiming that the Nishan-e-Haider award was politically motivated and perhaps the young Pilot Officer never deserved it. Also the media and school books information/portrayal of this episode has created some factual distortions. In the interest of history I am reproducing here substantially what Cecil told me about the incident. Obviously given that this discussion took place quite sometime back I do not remember his narration word to word but am reproducing the essential information. Also, I do not claim to have done any independent investigation but I believe that Cecil's narration of events is an important input.

Now coming to the story,

It is important to remember that Rashid Minhas was a very young and inexperienced pilot. The crash took place during his second solo flight on T-33 aircraft. In the run up to the 1971 crisis the PAF had grounded all East Pakistani pilots in PAF and had assigned them ground jobs. As part of this Flt Lt Mati ur Rehman was made the Deputy flight safety officer of the base. The Flight Safety Officer was Flt Lt Basit (if I remember the name correctly).

Flt Lt Basit as FSO used to on occasions do surprise checks on the OCU students at the base. As part of this he used to stop these students while they were taxing out on a sortie and check if they had correctly stowed equipment in the cockpit or would query them on emergency checklists etc. As one would expect the student would get reprimanded if he was found wanting on any of this.

On the day of the crash when Rashid Minhas was taxing out on a dusk training sortie and saw Flt Lt Mati ur Rehman (Deputy Flight safety officer) signalling him to stop he naturally assumed that the purpose was to do a similar check. Therefore, he not only stopped but his attention shifted to the cockpit. This allowed Flt Lt Mati ur Rehman to enter the instructor seat and initiate roll for take off. By the time Rashid Minhas realized this the aircraft was well into the take off sequence. On this Rashid gave a call to the ATC saying that the aircraft is being hijacked. Now this was 1971, aircraft hijacking was not considered an imminent possibility that too in Pakistan and at an air force base. The ATC requested confirmation of the call and got one from Rashid. On this fighters on ADA were scrambled to intercept the aircraft Again as hostilities were not imminent at that time the fighters were not at the highest ADA level (I forget exactly the ADA level Cecil mentioned but I think that it was 10 minutes). However given that Mati ur Rehman knew where the Radar gaps were (being till recently an active pilot) and the dusk conditions an interception was not made.

No further information became available till late at night when the PAF base got a call from a police station near the Indian border stating that an aircraft had crashed near a village bordering India. Next morning a team was dispatched to the crash site. Following this an investigation into the incident was launched.

Now coming to the factors that led Cecil to believe that a struggle for control took place and the crash was perhaps intentional.

As the aircraft overflew a number of villages some eyewitnesses were available. According to them the aircraft was not flying straight and level but was banking or pitching up and down. If Mati ur Rehman had been in complete control of the aircraft this would have resulted in a straight and level flight. Only a struggle resulted in an erratic flight with probably Rashid Minhas trying to control the aircraft in one way and Mati ur Rehman counter acting.

Fl Lt Mati ur Rehman’s body was found some distance before the crash site while Rashid Minhas body was at the crash site, had gone through the instrument panel and in the nose of the aircraft. The aircraft had crashed nose first. Mati ur Rehman’s body also had a sand blasting type effect on one side which indicated that he was blown off from the aircraft and dragged quite a bit on the desert surface.

This evidence linked in with the earlier events. The manner in which Mati ur Rehman took over the aircraft did not allow him time to strap on. During the likely struggle for aircraft control he used his greater experience to counter Rashid’s efforts. Also he was sitting on the instructor’s seat and could over ride some of Rashid Minhas’s actions. However, the option to jettison off the canopy in an emergency was available with both pilots. Near the point of crash Rahid Minhas in his efforts, either intentionally or accidentally, jettisoned the canopy. As Mati ur Rehman was not strapped on he was blown off explaining the way his body was injured and the fact that it was found before the crash site.

This resulted in sudden force on the controls of the aircraft in one direction, as force applied by Mati ur Rehman to control the aircraft was removed. This along with perhaps the effect caused by the loss of canopy, low level and Rashid Minhas’s inexperience resulted in the crash of the aircraft.

I hope this clarifies some of the issues regarding this incident. Personally I would like to get hold of the PAF‘ official investigation report into the incident which should be more detailed and should also shed more light into the incident.

[Awaisi]

Yawar,

Very good account, but you did not mention the following.

I some what remember that, the TV serial Nishane Haider's episode on P/O Minhas depicts that, Matiurehaman hit Minhas with a spanner and rendered him unconcious using cloroform before taking over the aircraft and that it took some time before Minhas came back to senses to realise what had happened. Mati gave 2-3 R/T calls to IAF but did not receive any response. I may be wrong but what I remember, 2 officers in the ATC noticed that, Minhas had taken off without their clearance and 2 F6s were scrambled.

Can u confirm if the above had really happened.

[H Khan]

Rashid Minhas story was the "Official PAF" story with no outside the circle input or criticsm, so it happens that that is what everyone saw. By the way, the person who played Mati ur Rehman was Sqd Ldr Asif Jabbar Khan very good neighbore and friend of mine. He flew F-86s and B-57 until their withdrawal. He had told me in detail of his participance in excercise "Fake II" simulated attack on Kahuta in 1981, "Wake VI" simulated attacked on Bombay's port, "Wonders I" simulated attack on Bharati commercial sealanes, and few others. He also evaluated S-3 "Vikings" as an replacement to B-57s in the early to mid 80's.

[Mazhar]

Yawar,

Very good account, but you did not mention the following.

I some what remember that, the TV serial Nishane Haider's episode on P/O Minhas depicts that, Matiurehaman hit Minhas with a spanner and rendered him unconcious using cloroform before taking over the aircraft and that it took some time before Minhas came back to senses to realise what had happened. Mati gave 2-3 R/T calls to IAF but did not receive any response. I may be wrong but what I remember, 2 officers in the ATC noticed that, Minhas had taken off without their clearance and 2 F6s were scrambled.

Can u confirm if the above had really happened.

Cecil was very clear on this. As per him Rashid gave the call which led to the scramble. Also it would be difficult to hit somebody with a spanner if he is wearing a helmet. I guess PTV took some 'poetic license'.

[SSAAD]

Rashid Minhas story was the "Official PAF" story with no outside the circle input or criticsm, so it happens that that is what everyone saw. By the way, the person who played Mati ur Rehman was Sqd Ldr Asif Jabbar Khan very good neighbore and friend of mine. He flew F-86s and B-57 until their withdrawal. He had told me in detail of his participance in excercise "Fake II" simulated attack on Kahuta in 1981, "Wake VI" simulated attacked on Bombay's port, "Wonders I" simulated attack on Bharati commercial sealanes, and few others. He also evaluated S-3 "Vikings" as an replacement to B-57s in the early to mid 80's.

Its probably best that some of the above exercises are not discussed in an open forum like this one. ;)

[Harisz]

Yawar,
an excellent post! thank you very much. i've been as interested in Rashid Minhas's story like you and would love to have a look at the official reports and stuff too. one thing ive wondered is...the aircraft mustve had a balckbox, the CVR...the CVR must have been found...what messages were there? ofcourse theere must have been some converstaion in the cokpit...anyone knows what might have happened?

[Ali M]

Well, I doubt there was a CVR on the T-33...I doubt any Military contain a CVR or FDR...they are mandated ( that is by law) for civil transport...the only thing of this effect on a military aircraft is an AVTR which again i doubt would have been on a T-33 in 1971....So HarisZ I think nobody knows what went in the cockpit.....

As for the account ,I think it gives us a better picture of what would have happened...I can tell you the wreckage of an aircraft can tell a lot of things .....even by looking at the wrckage you coudl tell a lot about what would have happened....therefore I feel that Cecil Choudhry's account gives us the most valid explaination.

However,there are still certain thing or grey areas that are not covered in the narration...First is the point at which Mati-ur-renham enetred the cocpit.
First of all if we accept that F/L Mati-ur-Rehman,,,,,stopped Rashid Minhas at the taxiway..and entered the A/C thereafter implies that Rahid Minahs had enough time to think and react to the situation.....as U can not take-off off the taxiway....so during the taxing out to the runway Rashid Minhas could have made several call sto the ATC and Mobile...

Secondly..the timing of the evnt doesnt make sense to me ......there is no way a pilot would fly a dusk sortie on his second solo......dusk and night operations are tricky ....so unless you are well into the conversion you are not sent on a dusk mission...not even in a civilian training environmnet...definetly not on your second solo......

Also I am appalled at the way Masroor handled the situation.There were various points at which it should have occurred to the people at base that something abnormal is taking place....why didnt any of the ATC controllers or the Mobile Controller reacted when this T-33 left the taxiway and entered the Runway without permission......in any kind of flying you cannot leave the taxiway and enter the runway unless cleared by the ATC...even if we discount that ..and ATC ignored it as a pilot error it should have made a call atleast.....then obviously he did'nt stop for his Mobile checks....that should have alerted the mobile officers....................then when the A/C commnced the take off roll without permission what actions did the ATC took???
I dont seriously agree on one more thing ...that is the ADA protocol of the day..It may be true that base wasnot on the war footings but even on a peacful day Air Force has fighters on alert duties with 6-9 minutes of scarmble time....why the scramble was not called???? or if called what did they did????

in the end I would like to calrify ,that I have written this to ask ceratin logical questions....and by no means I intend to tarnish the supreme effort made by P/O Rashid Minhas ....He is one of my heroes and i have sentimental belonging to both PAF Base Masroor and No.2 Sqn..to whic h Rashid Minhas belonged and where i have spent the most fulfilling time of my life.

[Gulstan]

Didn't know where to put this but doesn't it put to shame most countries, the extent to which the jews will go to get their fallen / MIA back. Compare this witht he kargill skermish and the alleged refusal of PAK to accept the bodies of the dead back.:mad::mad:

www.10million.org

[H Khan]

Compare this witht he kargill skermish and the alleged refusal of PAK to accept the bodies of the dead back.:mad::mad:

www.10million.org

This is not true at all. I strongly suggest to everyone before they make a blanket statement about Kargil whilst the only source are Pak or Bharati media than they need to do some research on this topic.

[Ali M]

Lets keep the dicussion limited to the topic............I know its easier to get astray as we all have some sort of guiding emotions....

anyways I found this on www.bangladesharmy.info

Martyr (Shaheed) Flight Lieutenant M Matiur Rahman, BS
Born: 21 February 1945 at Dhaka. Joined the Pakistan Air Force in August 1961 and commissioned in the GD(P) branch on 23 June 1963. Embraced martyrdom on August 20, 1971 in an attempt to join the Liberation War with a T-33 aircraft from Karachi Air Base which ultimately crashed.

I also got this impression of Mati-ur-Rehman

[M Saad]

Would you mind giving out details regarding the distance of the crash site from the Indian border and if infact the defecting pilot instructor was carrying documents that could endanger national security?

[Ali M]

Would you mind giving out details regarding the distance of the crash site from the Indian border and if infact the defecting pilot instructor was carrying documents that could endanger national security?

I dont know the exact distance but I am sure there is no at that point Rashid Minhas could have estimated his ditance from the border.......He wasnew to the area...and may not have flown over that part...specially if Mati-ur-Rehman chose to fly in the Radar blind corridor.

As for the question of document..... what could be a more imprtant document than the man himself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ali M]

[. By the way, the person who played Mati ur Rehman was Sqd Ldr Asif Jabbar Khan very good neighbore and friend of mine. He flew F-86s and B-57 until their withdrawal. . He also evaluated S-3 "Vikings" as an replacement to B-57s in the early to mid 80's.


to continue the topic of where some of the cast members are now, it is indeed intresting to note that from the officers who performed in the drama , rose many of the hi-performers of PAF. Two of them rose to the rank of AVM including AVM Abdur Rahim yusufzai who played OC flying Masroor while holding the same office.AVM Iqbal " Boli"Haider played Flt.Lt.Eric ,Rashid's Intructor Pilot in the drama.

The person who played Rashid's buddy Shahid was played by Shahid Alvi, now a Wing Commander and a senior F-16 pilot.The instructor who clears Rashid on his first solo at the acdemy was played by then Sqn.Ldr Sohail Kausar Butt, A fighter pilot to the core whose briliant career was cut short by a medical problem.He left PAF as a Wing Commander and last I knew of him he was in Islamabad serving as a Principal of one of the PAF schools.
This one is I am not sure of but I am 99% convinced ,Pilot Officer Adnan Khan who was one of the coursemates and theone who receives the call from Majeed Minhas on the fateful day is now a Sqn.Ldr and was working in PR directorate last time I met him.

I am yet to come across Farooq Iqbal himself..........then Pilot officer who was picked due to his resemblance with Rashid Minhas......

Ali

[Harisz]

Ali bhai, hi!
hows it going?

nice to see this great thread revived!

thanks for the info. i had been wondering about the presence of cvr etc on the T33, thanks for the calrification that fighter aircraft dont have it. so is there nothing onboard that may record the forensics to deduce series of events?
only God knows what may have happened exactly. and a lot is a mystery but from what i have learnt it was initially an absolute shock for the personnel on the base and though F86s were sent after the T33, they couldnt locate as the T33 flew too low and it was a mystery until late aftrenoon until a crash was confirmed at Shahbandar said to be 30 miles short of the border enroute Jamnagar airbase India. the take off schedule for Rashid Mihas was 1130hrs, daytime as it was only his second solo on the T33 during the FC.
what may have happened at the tarmac while Mati halted Rashid and made him allow him to enter the rear cockpit is confusing and exact detail can only be given by someone who may have been on the tarmac or the ATC...what would have Mati done to make rashid allow his actions that were totally out of line with SOPs. the drama, like yawar above said took a lot of poetc license. but nevertheless the rough outilne of events that we all know, and that which has been revealed by some imp ppl who've done their research on the incident fall in line and put the picture straight. Mati could have been armed.
the chlorofom bit is unlikely, but at what stage would rashid minhas have then decided to make the calls to the ATC confirming hijack...?
in any case, indeed he acted like a true hero and saved Pakistan and PAF from the humiliation of losing an aircraft and two pilots like that. and his act certainly was of extreme valor, trying to avoid crossing the border into enemy territory and creating aircraft turbulence puting his own life in danger. he did prove efficient and decisive and made the right timely decision which made his nation proud and i wish to salute him everyday!
may his glory live forever!

Thanks for the info on the ppl from the drama, that was nice to know :)
especially of AVM abdur Rahim yusufzai, he seemed a dashing officer.
i wonder where Farooq Iqbal is...he played the role well.
i would love to meet Rashid Minhas's real comrades and companions and family.
ACM Kaleem Saadat was his course mate and was with him at masroor. and one interesting thing, if you look at the drama, watch carefully when they show the flight schedule chart before the fateful flight. above the name Rashid scheduled for 1130 there is a name written Kaleem for 1027 or so...
i wonder if its a coinicidence or whether that much attn to detail was given...

[Ali M]

Yes you are right ....ACM kaleem Saadat is from Rashid Minhas course and so was Group Captain Hussaini...............father of aviation art in the region.

As for AVM Raheem Yusufzai, hw was a dashing officer indeed,.....tell you something If you watch Vital Signs Song "Aisay Hum Jiyain".....you cath aa glimpe of him ,He was base commnder Kamra that time.A lot of people wee expecting him to become CAS....but ..........
There was a time PAF such dashing officers were a common thing,,,they were not only dashing but were true fighter pilots and gentlemen................ACM Hakimullah, AVM Abbas " Mickey" Mirza, Air.Cdr. Kaiser.....................the coolest .

[Harisz]

yeah...

Air.Cdr. Kaiser.....................the coolest .

Absolutely!!
The very best!

[Ali M]

QUOTE=YAWAR]"A few months back I had the opportunity along with a friend to spend an evening with Group Captain (R) Cecil Chaudry. Obviously the time was spent discussing his experiences. As it turned out Cecil was responsible for investigating the Rashid Minhas crash back in 1971 and told us a some details which are not known publicly.

he used his greater experience to counter Rashid’s efforts. Also he was sitting on the instructor’s seat and could over ride some of Rashid Minhas’s actions. However, the option to jettison off the canopy in an emergency was available with both pilots" Unquote




The Forward and rear Controls i.e The stick,Rudder pedals and Throttles are mechanically linked they all move in unision...therfore an instructor cannot override them.In such a mechanical FCS pilot with more muscle power wins........Rashid Minhas being young and lean was chosen for that reason.......Ali M

[M Saad]

Well by your quote it seems as if these days Pak Airforce is lacking the dashing pilots with the likes of those of yesteryears? Am I getting it wrong, or is it true?

[Ali M]

Well by your quote it seems as if these days Pak Airforce is lacking the dashing pilots with the likes of those of yesteryears? Am I getting it wrong, or is it true?

Dashing may not be the right word......but the breed I am talking about is definitely thinning

[RMS Azam]

If I were a pilot officer and a senior instructer pilot intercepts me during taxi and asks to get in...would I resist? Of course, not. It is possible that he has instructions to do so. The last thing on your mind is hijacking.

My theory is that Rashid let Mati-ur-Rahman into the backseat...probably thinking it was some last minute instruction...otherwise, he could have blocked his entry by closing the canopy.

The official PAF version is that once he got in and proceeded to takeoff without permission, it was then that the ATC got alerted. After take-off, the ATC tried repeatedly to get into touch with Rashid but Mati had switched the radio channel. However, Rashid managed to get in touch with the ATC and said he was being hijacked. It was at this time that two F-6s were scrambled.

I don't really believe the jettison story. Can a student sitting in the front have the switch to jettison his instructor in the back? It would be foolish for PAF to provide such a mechanism. If he pulled the ejection handle, both seats would have jettisoned. This way, he could have prevented the aircraft from crossing over into India and save himself.

One theory is that Rashid tried to regain control of the aircraft and, in the ensuing struggle, the aircraft crashed. The official version, of course, is that sensing that he was getting near the border, he decided to crash the plane.

Either way, it was Rashid's actions that prevented the aircraft from crossing over into India and that's why he got the Nishan-e-Haider.

[yasser]

I dont find it very befitting that this thread even exists....

Who are we to question a receipiant of the Nishan I Haider!?

PAF lost many good men in the wars, many died bravely, if we wanted to we could hand out bravey awards like candy, similar to what our Eastern neighbours do. We do not! Even our pilots dont get a confirmed kill in the PAF unless it is independantly verified and gun camera footage and/or wreckage is found.

For the PAF to give the nations highest award to a pilot, I am pretty sure that no matter how the T-33 actually crashed it was inevitably due to the fact that Rashid Minhas wanted to prevent it going to India. He had a choice, he could have listened to his instructor and become a POW and return home alive after the war. No one in the PAF would have blamed him if he chose this cause of action. The reason he did not take the chance of life and rather choose certain death distingushes a PAF pilot from an IAF Gnat pilot who chose to land in Pakistan rather then fight , and dare I say, distingushes Pakistan Fiza' Ya and her pilots from many, many other air forces!

[Ali M]

Yasser ,

First of all no one here is questioning P/O Rashid Minhas deeds....the idea of this thread is to shed some light on some of the events,generally, obscured from view. It is for us who rvere Rashid Minhas as a hero ..to find the logic hidden in his actions so that we could answer those who dont.........


Azam;

I think you have missed some important points in the story..................

1) Mati Ur Rehman was not an IP with No.2sqn at the time....he was DFSO Masroor...so there was no point for him to approach a pilot and give instructions........the most he could do was report an anamoly to the Flt.Cdr (trng) No. 2 sqn.

2) If you had ever strapped yourself in a cockpit, miltary cockpit in particular,you would have known ..how dificult it is to move around your arms ...especially with a 3-point harness which restricts the torso.

3) This was a " Solo " mission.....and in any kind of training flight,miltary or civil......you can not haul passengers just like that ....certainly you cannot hitch a ride on he last moment.................you have to sign-off certain paper work before you could eneter an aircarft dual or single.....So Mati-ur -Rehaman's entry ....by all means was forceful.

4)The instant Mati-ur-Rehman enetered tha cockpit , Rashid Minhas must have become aware of whats coming.The fact that Mati ur Rehman did not stop for Mobile checks and entered the Runwy without permission ....let alone taking off...must have given Rashid Minhas the glaring ques....................so in my mind Rashid Minhas was fully aware of what was happening.

5)As far as jettissioning of IP is concerned..........you got it wrong ....Rashid Minhas did not jettision his instructor,....if you had noticed a previous post of mine I had mentioned that T-bird has Mechanically link controls...that means moving any of thorttle,rudder pedal and stick in one cocpit moves the one in the other.....so gaining the ocntrol of the aircraft is only by force.That puts us to point that in a struggle for the control one of them has incidentally or intentionally jettisioned the "CANOPY".......the resulting slip stream may have sucked Mati -u-Rehman out.....provided he did nt manage to strap himslef in.
I have not seen the bodies or the wreckage myself .....but one of the basic accident investigation que is " the parts found before the wreckage in the flight path , must have failed before the rest".So if the canopy was foud seperate form the wreckage, itt must have been jettisioned.....
Further , sand pitting , collapsed lungs, stretched spinal cord , strecthed lips and nostrils , indicate wind blast injuries on a body.



Last but not the least , Aircraft showed signs of struggle in flight......so wheather Rashid Minhas intentionally pushed the nose over or not .........he did do what an officer of highest calibre would have done....he did not chose the easy way out and in doing so made the supreme sacrifice period.

[Harisz]

absolutely!
the reason why we discuss this with such interest is that all of us who think he was a hero have the urge to know what happened and we want to share views and find out and diacuss the forensics involved. Rashid Minhas was a great hero is a fact no one can question.

maybe we can open mre threads like this and discuss the series of events leading to the martyrdom of other heroes aswell.

Ali bhai, any more info on the injuries recorded on both piolts? Yawar mentions above that RM had entered the panel...
and what exactly are sandpitting, sandbagging and wind blast, thanks!

[Ali M]

Harisz,

As far as the injuries are concerned , I am as knowledgeable as you are.............

Ill try to explain in general terms ;

RM went through the Panel: This is the effect of inertia, when the nose struck the ground it stopped there; the inertia which mean a moving body tries to keep moving must have propelled RM towards the instrument panel, with such a force that his body went through it.........that gives us some measure of speed tne aircraft must be travelling at the time.The speed at the point of impact can also be determined by the angle at which the aircraft impacted the ground and teh way its wreckage is distributed.
If the aircraft strikes the grpung at high speed and low angle.....the wreckage will spread more or less in Peackocks Fan shape...
At high speed and steep angle wreckage s found in a compact area.

Coming to Sand Blasting etc: if you have tried sticking you r mouth out of a fast moving car .....you feel like you cannot breath any more...isnt it..the reason is the high velocity air has lower pressure , that low pressure sucks ut oxygen in the lungs...
Imagine that happening at speeds around 250 knots....what such speed will do to llungs
Sand Blasting on a body is the same same as sand blasting you do tho on your car's wind screen to print registration .What it does that it blast fine sand at very high sped at wind screen that scapes a fine layer off wind screen.....
Usually Air at low altitudes has sand or fine particles, so when a boody is subjected to face it at very high speeds the larger particles put "pits" in the exposed skin.
Wind Blast is when a body is inserted suddenly into a stream of fast moving air, since the corner of teh lips, ends of nostrils and corners of eye sockets are weak and the stress is all concentrated on those points , a sudden exposure to wind blast may either sheer them off or inserts a crack line that extends from these corners to further inward.

In the aircraft accident , the only thing that causes fatality is change in lateral and vertical accelarations.I dont know how many of us follow F-1 racing but to give you an example of this is the death Ayrton Senna....the impact of his car to the barrier was not much , but the cahnge in acceleration caused his neck to thrust forward so rapidly that it broke.........that is ehy nowadays F-1 drivers have to wear a neck restraint.

I hope that is sufficien to explain your queries

Ali

[haroonn]

I am not questioning the actions taken by Shaheed Rashid Minhas to prevent the hijacking of his aircraft. But could that incident be avoided by jettisoning the canopy or ejecting while the aircraft was still on the ground before take off when he became aware of Mati-ur-Rahman' s intentions??
Just a thought...

[yasser]

I am not questioning the actions taken by Shaheed Rashid Minhas to prevent the hijacking of his aircraft. But could that incident be avoided by jettisoning the canopy or ejecting while the aircraft was still on the ground before take off when he became aware of Mati-ur-Rahman' s intentions??
Just a thought...

But then Rahman would have succeeded had Rashid Minhas chose this option, that he did not is testamant to a Pakistani hero....

[Ali M]

I am not questioning the actions taken by Shaheed Rashid Minhas to prevent the hijacking of his aircraft. But could that incident be avoided by jettisoning the canopy or ejecting while the aircraft was still on the ground before take off when he became aware of Mati-ur-Rahman' s intentions??
Just a thought...


you got me into thinking!!!!!

anyways I think the ejecting while on the ground would have ended with the same results.Though I am not sure on whether the T-33 ejection seat was Zero-Zero,that means capable of ejection from static aircraft....therefore the prameters were not right for safe ejection.That would have killed both and destroyed the airtcraft and pbly soem other property on the ground.

Another logic for Rashid Minhas Actions lie in the way pilots are trained or think.First of all that yellow handle in the cockpit is not considered a "friend" and you tend to delay its use till the very last moment.Secondly as a pilot you take your chances in air rather than on ground, for example A pilot would hate to handle an emrgency before Vr ( Rotation Velocity) as so many thing could go wrong in an event of aborted Take off.So the instinct is get air borne with the emergency , deal with it in the air ,come ack and land....I beleieve that would have led Rashid Minhas to get airborne and then fight for the controls....

One more evidence that could almost entirely seal the debate whether he intentionally pushed the nose over or not 'can be found in autopsy report.The injury to the arms can tell ......In case he intentionally pushed teh nose over ...Rashid Minhas' hands would be pussing on the stick, theerefor on Impact they would crush differently than if he was pulling on the stick!!!!!!

[Ali M]

I did my little research on T-33 Canopy Jettission mechanism. I asked pilots who have flown T-33 and asI had suspected...there is no way one can unintentionally jettision the canopy ...there is a T-handle on the center pedestal which has to be pulled ,,,and you have to bend forward to do it. To open or close a canopy requires two seperate action , the first is the selection of canopy open/close switch on the right cockpit wall followed by a pulling/pushing canopy lock lever.So in my view it was Rishid Minhas' last effort to gain control of the aircraft. Loss of canopy results in sever aerodynamic penalty on an aircraft . The resultan vorteices may lead to a loss of lift, and there is a possibilty that the canopy may have strcuk any of the control surfaces on its way out ,making things worse for the young pilot.

Pics courtesy: T-bird Pilots Murph and Jeff

[Harisz]

Ali bhai,
thanks a lot for the detailed and useful info on the injuries.

and awsome job wiht the reference pictires from a T33 cockpit above! this is amazing work! couldnt thank you enough! :)

youre right. alot could be learned from the autopsy and it would reveal what actions his arms were involved in. good point.
about the canopy release, is it possible for pilots to blow it off without being ejected? dont the canopy and ejection usually take place together with one lever?
as i have learned the T33 also had some lever under the plane's belly to enable or disable the canopy release.

[Ali M]

Ali bhai,
thanks a lot for the detailed and useful info on the injuries.

and awsome job wiht the reference pictires from a T33 cockpit above! this is amazing work! couldnt thank you enough! :)

youre right. alot could be learned from the autopsy and it would reveal what actions his arms were involved in. good point.
about the canopy release, is it possible for pilots to blow it off without being ejected? dont the canopy and ejection usually take place together with one lever?
as i have learned the T33 also had some lever under the plane's belly to enable or disable the canopy release.


It is possible to blow off the canopy , if the canop is unlocked in mid air the slip stream will blow it off...without initiating ejection...I think i can guess why you are asking this . ;) ....so one has to be aware that behaviour of the canopy is unpredicatble ..most of the times canopy strikes the tail if blown away by the slip stream or jet wash.

Ali

Ali

[mastankhan]

Haroonn,

In the fluid dynamics of a criminal act being committed, the criminal always has the advantage. The victim is always slow and is lucky if he gets the chance to react even. Now in the millitary heirarchy, and under the above mentioned situation, with a senior officer taking over command of the plane, the reaction time would automatically be delayed. That is just the function of a relation between a senior and a junior officer.

Quite a few people would reacted very late under those circumstances. Rashid did a tremendous job. We need to remember that there was no example like this one that may have occured before which could have prepared the flyer for an instantaneous reaction.

[Harisz]

exactly mastankhan.

[Harisz]

..I think i can guess why you are asking this . ;)

yup, i'm sure you guessd right Ali bhai ;)

[Harisz]

Recently came across this; A Bangladeshi movement directred towards trying to take Matin-ur-Rehman's remains from PAFB Masroor to his land.

http://www.bangladesh-association.com/Matiur/

They have a link to this page.

[Zain Abbass]

I hope we never give those remains back. Minhas was a true hero and the youngest to receive the Nishan-e-Haider. The bengali commited treason! A crime that holds the death sentence by hanging in Pakistan.

[yasser]

I hope we never give those remains back. Minhas was a true hero and the youngest to receive the Nishan-e-Haider. The bengali commited treason! A crime that holds the death sentence by hanging in Pakistan.

That may be the case, he was our enemy at the time, but he believed he was doing what was right for HIS nation. They regard him as a hero. He should not honour him, but at least have the dignity to give his remains back to his family and his home. Even Indians do that to our soldiers. This is Islamic way.

[Harisz]

I wonder if the BD PM discussed the issue on her trip...
I think we shouldn't return the remains, they should rest in peace where they have been for the past 35 years. We can just assure them there's no disrespect being done to him and he's burried alongwith fellow Muslims in a well managed and looked after military graveyard. I've also heard from good sources that his daughter was also allowed a special visit to the base and the grave few years ago.

[masood]

Indians don't do that to traitors just enemy soldiers, we do that as well.

But I would have agreed to sending his remains back, for the sake of his family but given that how much fanfare given to this event from anti-pakistan elements stoked by India I would rather let the sleeping dogs lie. If I can live with the thousands of Pakistani soldiers missing in Bangladesh and hundred and thousands of Pakistani civilians' remains who probably didn't even get the dignity of being buried, then I can live with his remains lie in a grave here, no one is desecrating it.

But as I said above, it is better to let the sleeping dogs lie and not respond to people trying to stoke the embers.

[Waqar Hassan]

I think whatever happened, happened in the past. If the family requests us to dig up his grave and send the remains back to B.Desh, I think we should respect their request. To be fair, West Pakistan was not fair with our Eastern Brothren and they did have a point when they revolted against us. I have nevertheless added a paragraph to rehman's story on Wikipedia to show our point of view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matiur_Rahman_%28military_pilot%29

[Abbas]

To be fair, West Pakistan was not fair with our Eastern Brothren and they did have a point when they revolted against us.

I don't want to start another argument here, as this issue has been discussed to death. I am however sick and tired of Pakistanis self-flagelating themselves over Bangalees' treason.

If you read Bangladeshi intellectuals' writing on this issue, one of their justification for the creation of Bangladesh is that the Pakistan Resolution passed by the Muslim League called for muslim "states," (I am not sure if this is true) rather than one muslim "state." This means that they never believed in the unity of Pakistan, and must have supported the call for Pakistan only beause they thought they could not get independence from a larger India.

Inequities exist in every society, and these are no excuse for treason. Is Bangladesh free from inequalities now? Even if there was unfairness with the Bangalees, it has been exaggerated beyond recognition. Finally, if there had been genuine anti-Pakistan sentiment among ordinary bangalees, they would not have needed Bharat's terrorist assistance and invasion to win their independence, they could have done it on their own.

There is no reason to send the remains back, let them lie where they are as a reminder to any current or future traitors.

NavBaby.

[msalman]

If his remains are not supposed to be in a prison then the choice of his final resting place belongs to his family.

Let's not get carried away with the word 'traitor'. It was the use of terms like these that got us into the problem in the first place. Fighting for your rights is not treason. Killing women, children, and civilians, however, can not be justified.

That most horrific part of our history is over. If we continue to call it treason, then I am afraid we will repeat the mistake again.

Although we should never forget about it, we need to get on. This means making sure we have the best of relations with Bangladesh. And if it means moving some one's remains then we should.

We need to get the hate out of our system. It will only hurt us.

[iqbal's]

Indians don't do that to traitors just enemy soldiers, we do that as well.

But I would have agreed to sending his remains back, for the sake of his family but given that how much fanfare given to this event from anti-pakistan elements stoked by India I would rather let the sleeping dogs lie. If I can live with the thousands of Pakistani soldiers missing in Bangladesh and hundred and thousands of Pakistani civilians' remains who probably didn't even get the dignity of being buried, then I can live with his remains lie in a grave here, no one is desecrating it.

But as I said above, it is better to let the sleeping dogs lie and not respond to people trying to stoke the embers.
Quite right. why are we soo keen to play into the hands of people who just want to flog us? Remember the "millions raped " And millions killed stroy? Who has bothered to publsize the facts as revealed recently by a Bangali moot itself? Let sleeping dogs lie.
Iqbal

[Zain Abbass]

That may be the case, he was our enemy at the time, but he believed he was doing what was right for HIS nation. They regard him as a hero. He should not honour him, but at least have the dignity to give his remains back to his family and his home. Even Indians do that to our soldiers. This is Islamic way.
He didnt have a nation at that time! At that time there was no Bengladesh. He commited treason plain and simple.

[AGKhan]

He didnt have a nation at that time! At that time there was no Bengladesh. He commited treason plain and simple.

If you treat someone with suspicion in the first place - dont expect loyalty. the PAF made a big mistake by grounding all Bengali PAF Officers - Is it any wonder that they became frustrated, disgruntled and ultimately disloyal. It was a mistake to ground people like Saiful azam. He cold have been an ace eclipsing Alam.

for that matter, it was a mistake for the army to crackdown on the EBR regiment.. that started it all.

[Zain Abbass]

Would you have allowed them to fly?

I sure would not have under the fear that they might turn which they could have done.

[AGKhan]

Its not such a tough question - In more cases than not, the loyalty of a service person is first to his buddies, then to his unit, then to his nation... Thats how the psychology in any armed force would have worked. Are the officers from our FATA area disarmed and sideline just because we are carrying out anti terrorist activeis there? , are our baluchi officers and men interned in camps just becase we are carrying some ops against the bugti? Sidelining, interning the bengalis in the army and airforce at the time of the crackdown was a mistake. Even if the army had done it, the air force should have reposed faith in its bengali pilots and airmen. Imagine yourself, putting in about six years to ten years service , perhaps even fighting in a war (did Matiur fight in 65? i dont know) and then ultimately being treated with suspicion.. that would have had disastrous consequences for morale of the bengalis.

[Abbas]

The Bangalees were not sidelined until after they mutinied. Anyone of you remember the massacre of Pakistani officers and soldiers at the Jodhepur garrison by their own bangalee comrades? Obviously not!! :mad: In any case loyal bangalees in West Pakistan were not side lined. E.g. M.M. Alam.

Loyalty to your buddies or your unit arises on the basis of your loyalty to the nation. If you are not loyal to the country, you are defeating the purpose why the unit was created - which is to protect the nation. If your loyalty is not to the nation, then don't bother joining its armed forces and swearing an oath to protect it. However if you do join the armed forces and then act in a manner contrary to the oath you have given, then don't complain if you are called a traitor and treated as such.

Some of you take the rebellion and treason in East Pakistan very lightly, as if it was no big deal or was justified. It was not justified! :mad: No matter what your issues are, you do not go and collaborate with an enemy against your country. If you think otherwise, then don't expect to have a country at all because there will always be grievances among one group or another, and then they can just go an collaborate with an enemy to break up your country.

Collaborating with an enemy is always treason. That is what the bangalees did, and that is why they will remain traitors to Pakistan. Until and unless they are prepared to apologize for their treason, there is no room for compromise here.

NavBaby.

[Zain Abbass]

The Bangalees were not sidelined until after they mutinied. Anyone of you remember the massacre of Pakistani officers and soldiers at the Jodhepur garrison by their own bangalee comrades? Obviously not!! :mad: In any case loyal bangalees in West Pakistan were not side lined. E.g. M.M. Alam.

Loyalty to your buddies or your unit arises on the basis of your loyalty to the nation. If you are not loyal to the country, you are defeating the purpose why the unit was created - which is to protect the nation. If your loyalty is not to the nation, then don't bother joining its armed forces and swearing an oath to protect it. However if you do join the armed forces and then act in a manner contrary to the oath you have given, then don't complain if you are called a traitor and treated as such.

Some of you take the rebellion and treason in East Pakistan very lightly, as if it was no big deal or was justified. It was not justified! :mad: No matter what your issues are, you do not go and collaborate with an enemy against your country. If you think otherwise, then don't expect to have a country at all because there will always be grievances among one group or another, and then they can just go an collaborate with an enemy to break up your country.

Collaborating with an enemy is always treason. That is what the bangalees did, and that is why they will remain traitors to Pakistan. Until and unless they are prepared to apologize for their treason, there is no room for compromise here.

NavBaby.
You hit the nail in the head Abbas :) !

[AGKhan]

The Bangalees were not sidelined until after they mutinied. Anyone of you remember the massacre of Pakistani officers and soldiers at the Jodhepur garrison by their own bangalee comrades?

Tell me any case in the PAF where the Bengali airmen or pilots mutineed.

And alam was not a bengalee he was a bihari muslim.

Loyalty to your buddies or your unit arises on the basis of your loyalty to the nation. If you are not loyal to the country, you are defeating the purpose why the unit was created - which is to protect the nation. If your loyalty is not to the nation, then don't bother joining its armed forces and swearing an oath to protect it.

all the talk is okay, but you read about the studies done on soldiers and battle and actions in them, it has been asserted quite frequently that the loyatly to unit and buddies was theprime motivating factor for extraoridinary acts of courage.


Some of you take the rebellion and treason in East Pakistan very lightly, as if it was no big deal or was justified. It was not justified! :mad: No matter what your issues are, you do not go and collaborate with an enemy against your country. If you think otherwise, then don't expect to have a country at all because there will always be grievances among one group or another, and then they can just go an collaborate with an enemy to break up your country.


The real treason of 71 was by the army generals in command and then the officers in east pakistan who committed the atrocities. its immaterial that the killings are few, but even a 100,000 pr 10000 civilians killed i a disgrace that the army will never shake off.

the discussion is not on the army.. but on the PAF. there were certainly no cases of mutiny or treason in the PAF in the days after the crackdown. the PAF did a premptive move - which i feel is unjustified. it does nothing but stoke fires among a discontented and demoralised bengali cadre. What i am saying is that they cannot be blamed solely. the environment was created for them...

Unless ofcourse you can really find stories of bengali airmen who turned on thier counterparts...

[Abbas]

Tell me any case in the PAF where the Bengali airmen or pilots mutineed.

And alam was not a bengalee he was a bihari muslim.

What do you call the assasination of a European (I think French) foreign minister at Dhaka airport, who had come to provide relief for hurricane victims? The assasin, a bangalee PAF forklift driver who crushed the foreign minister under his forklift, shouted "Joi Bangla" when he was dragged out of his vehicle.


all the talk is okay, but you read about the studies done on soldiers and battle and actions in them, it has been asserted quite frequently that the loyatly to unit and buddies was theprime motivating factor for extraoridinary acts of courage.

This is not mere talk, and you are missing the point. Loyalty to unit and buddies exists because the combatants are risking their lives for a common cause: protection of their nation. Would you be loyal to someone who strives to defeat your purpose?

The real treason of 71 was by the army generals in command and then the officers in east pakistan who committed the atrocities. its immaterial that the killings are few, but even a 100,000 pr 10000 civilians killed i a disgrace that the army will never shake off.

Oh really? This statement leads me to believe you have no clue what you are talking about! If you are so distressed by the armed forces' alleged atrocities, how come your bleeding heart does not shed a tear for the thousands of loyal Pakistanis killed by Bangalee terrorists. The military did not do a thing until 1971, while the Mukti Bahini, aided by Bharat, were killing people (both non-bangalees and bangalees) loyal to Pakistan from 1967. Who speaks for these innocent victims?

the discussion is not on the army.. but on the PAF. there were certainly no cases of mutiny or treason in the PAF in the days after the crackdown. the PAF did a premptive move - which i feel is unjustified. it does nothing but stoke fires among a discontented and demoralised bengali cadre. What i am saying is that they cannot be blamed solely. the environment was created for them...

Unless ofcourse you can really find stories of bengali airmen who turned on thier counterparts...

The air force is a branch of the armed forces, and cannot be insulated from general developments in the military. It was prudent foresight that the sentiments betrayed by bangalees in one service of the military would eventually affect the other services too.

In any case, the bangalees' treason was more than 30 years ago, but what worries me more is that there are Pakistanis who are still clueless as to the facts of East Pakistan conflict, and so easily manipulated by anti-Pakistani propaganda. As someone who has lived through the bloody events, I am disappointed when I hear so much ignorance from a new generation of Pakistanis. However, survival has made me an optimist and for Pakistan's future I will bet on the likes of Zain Abbas, rather than A.G.Khan.

NavBaby.

[SSAAD]

Well there are many factors that people do not think about either because it is now politically incorrect or now fogotten that the action in EP was a military action first and certain members of the Pakistani security apparatus were involved in excesses. It is correct that the first side to resort to violence, strong arm tactics were members of MB prior to Op. Searchlight.

Once things started getting hot, the MB and the revolting EPR wings along with EBR (which was part of the regular PA) did not leave some of their ex-colleagues in the Pakistani security aparatus behind in commiting atrocities. The fact that PA was a disciplined force and killed fellow Pakistanis (EPs) is what is shameful and unfortunately will have to live with that for a long time. The majority of the Army (even more than 90%) served as they were ordered to without getting themselves involved in atrocities against the civilians.

Many, many West Pakistani officers, NCOs, JCOs and their families were executed by the East Pakistani cadres of the EBR and in some cases fratricide (intentional) was committed by some Pakistani units as well of the East Pakistani members. I know that list of atrocities (sometimes greatly exaturated) committed by West Pakistanis is easily available, however if anyone is interested in reading the same about what was done to West Pakistanis should look at the appendix of the book "unlikely Beginings". Pages upon pages of news reports quoted from the western media about west Pakistanis killed.

Its a messy affair to dig through and assign blame....as far as the remains of the Bengali instructor are concerned, I think they should be returned as we now need to nurture the future. We have already awarded a NH to a PAF pilot. The remains of instructor whether in Pakistan or BD no longer matter to us (should not matter to BDs either for that matter but maybe they have certain sentimental reasons for bringing his remains back). So for the sake of the future (if this is a big enough issue b/w Pakistan and BD, as far as I know its not, thus only one or two sites about it), we should hand the remains over and move on.

[Waqar Hassan]

I totally agree with what Saad just said. I think the future of Pakistan, and Insha Allah we have a very bright one ahead of us, lies in the hand of people who think like him. People who learn from their past mistakes. Not in the hands of people who keep on living in the past and keep on making the same mistakes. I have done a lot of research on the topic and I agree that over 90% of the people serving in Pakistani armed forces did not commit any atrocities. I have met with several officers who served in the conflict, including one who was awarded an SJ with bar in 1971, who confirms all what Saad says. I don't think Mati-ur-Rehman's remain serve the purpose of a deterrant to any prospective traitor and the same should be returned to his family if they so wish.

[masood]

Mati-ur-rehman's remains are not there as deterent to traitors. The remains should be returned to the family with the caveat that the occassion not be used for propaganda by the Bangladeshis but rather as an event to move forward and put the past behind us.

As far as who did what to whom and when, we can go on and on about it till we are blue in the face and we'll stick to our opnions because that is what we want to believe. from my personal point of view, after talking with family members who were there in the army, most of the propaganda about what the Army did is hogwash and doesn't stand upto the evidence from neutral organisations.

[msalman]

Dear Abbass,

If I may, then I would like to ask you to please reconsider your ideas of loyalty and treason. And concept of countries. If you would look at the history of the World then you would see that countries have been created, changed, broken up, merged, etc. So you can not hold anyone to be always loyal to a country when countries are bound to change.

Loyalty can only be to the concept of truth and fairness. In the US, the oath requires you to be loyal to the US Constitution (supposedly a very fair document) and not to the US - the country. It is a concept, which I don't know how well practiced. Do you think a Muslim is required to be loyal to a country, a friend, or to the truth? We are required to bear witness to truth no matter what party is involved in the dispute.

Coming to treason. Was the war of 1857 an act of treason? Or was it a war for freedom. The soldiers who took part in it had taken an oath for the crown. Do you consider them traitors? Obviously not. To us they will always be freedom fighters.

And why did we ask for a separate Pakistan and break India? Is that treason? what if our demands for a separate country had been refused? Should we have started a war of freedom? What were our loyalties supposed to be? And we had inequallities before and after independence.

Comming to BanglaDesh war. It is true that the Bengalis started the riots and killings first. But they did it after the fact that we had refused to let them form a government. Also, if you can not trust your officers to let them fight with you then the writing is on the wall for everyone to see. Imagine if we had the sanity to say, well, we don't want to let them rule us because we are superior to them (ever heard the term 'bhuka bengali' and they are 'ghadars by nature'), and so they really don't want to be with us so we should just let them go free. It was all this nonsense of "Pakistan will not break" as if it was written in some scriptures.

Whether they asked India for help, or India jumped in to settle old scores, is besides the point. They wanted freedom and were unfortunately willing to do what ever to get it as we were willing to use what ever force to keep them with us. May be at that time they saw India as a lesser evil than Pakistan. Do we ever wonder if WE were loyal to THEM? Did WE not commit treason??

And the question should not be if they could have achieved freedom without Indian help or if we could have won the war by soem brilliant military strategy. The question should be what were we doing trying to do keep them with us. Why did we not just let them go??


I request that you think about what I have written for a day or so and see if it makes any sense.

[Abbas]

You can only "move on" when every party to the story moves on. Have the Bangalees moved on? Does not look like it to me, every media that talks about the conflict referes to Pakistan and the army in the most derogatory manner. E.g. "Pakistani colonialism" or "atrocities by the army of occupation." Moving on unilaterally leaves the other party the freedom to turn their lies into historical facts, and that is what has been happening to Pakistan ever since 1971. Therefore, every lie and every opportunity to perpetuate the lie must be denied, and that is one more why Rehman's remains must never be returned because it will just the fuel the demonization of Pakistan that bangalee prpopagandists have engaged in.

It is the height of naivete to expect that the return of Rehman's remains will not be used for propaganda purposes. Does anyone of remember the riots in Bangladesh a few years ago when one of their MPs flew a pakistani flag from his house? Given such extreme anti-Pakistani sentiments, the only reasons the remains are being asked for is for propaganda purposes and I don't believe it has anything to do with family concerns.

No one here is living in the past, the issue is prevention of present damage due to falsification of past events. However, it does seem some people have learnt nothing from the past as they prefer to stick their heads in the sand. What's the point of your research when you will allow the "90%" innocent personnel to be tainted by the exaggerated atrocities blamed on the remaining 10%? This is exactly what will happen if the remains are returned.

The remains do serve a deterent purpose as retaining them signifies to any potential traitor that he will never be rewarded for his treason and no act of treason will go unpunished, while the victims of treason also receive retribution for their pain and suffering.

All of you who are so eager to return Rehman's remains ever thought of asking for the remians of Pakistanis killed by Mukti Bahini and thrown in some mass grave in East Pakistan? By returning the remains you trivialize the biggest catastrophe Pakistan has ever suffered, and insult the memory of those killed trying to maintain the Pakistan founded by Qaide Azam.

NavBaby.

[Zain Abbass]

Dear Abbass,

If I may, then I would like to ask you to please reconsider your ideas of loyalty and treason. And concept of countries. If you would look at the history of the World then you would see that countries have been created, changed, broken up, merged, etc. So you can not hold anyone to be always loyal to a country when countries are bound to change.

Loyalty can only be to the concept of truth and fairness. In the US, the oath requires you to be loyal to the US Constitution (supposedly a very fair document) and not to the US - the country. It is a concept, which I don't know how well practiced. Do you think a Muslim is required to be loyal to a country, a friend, or to the truth? We are required to bear witness to truth no matter what party is involved in the dispute.

Coming to treason. Was the war of 1857 an act of treason? Or was it a war for freedom. The soldiers who took part in it had taken an oath for the crown. Do you consider them traitors? Obviously not. To us they will always be freedom fighters.

And why did we ask for a separate Pakistan and break India? Is that treason? what if our demands for a separate country had been refused? Should we have started a war of freedom? What were our loyalties supposed to be? And we had inequallities before and after independence.

Comming to BanglaDesh war. It is true that the Bengalis started the riots and killings first. But they did it after the fact that we had refused to let them form a government. Also, if you can not trust your officers to let them fight with you then the writing is on the wall for everyone to see. Imagine if we had the sanity to say, well, we don't want to let them rule us because we are superior to them (ever heard the term 'bhuka bengali' and they are 'ghadars by nature'), and so they really don't want to be with us so we should just let them go free. It was all this nonsense of "Pakistan will not break" as if it was written in some scriptures.

Whether they asked India for help, or India jumped in to settle old scores, is besides the point. They wanted freedom and were unfortunately willing to do what ever to get it as we were willing to use what ever force to keep them with us. May be at that time they saw India as a lesser evil than Pakistan. Do we ever wonder if WE were loyal to THEM? Did WE not commit treason??

And the question should not be if they could have achieved freedom without Indian help or if we could have won the war by soem brilliant military strategy. The question should be what were we doing trying to do keep them with us. Why did we not just let them go??


I request that you think about what I have written for a day or so and see if it makes any sense.

You are not understanding me correctly. In my view the civil war was totally incorrect and the people inciting the violence were doing it for that purpose. We arent talking about freedom or freedom fighters here. We are talking about a war that was completely incited by certain individuals with agenda's.

[msalman]

You are not understanding me correctly. In my view the civil war was totally incorrect and the people inciting the violence were doing it for that purpose. We arent talking about freedom or freedom fighters here. We are talking about a war that was completely incited by certain individuals with agenda's.


I did not mean my comments for you but the other Abbass (NavBaby).
But you have raised a very interested point which I did not get before. So the question then is who were these people, what was their agenda, and what did we handle the problem in the right way? Did not most of the Bengalis want the same thing? Were they not correct to go for that agenda?

Better still, how could the problem have been solved in a better way??

[SSAAD]

You can only "move on" when every party to the story moves on. Have the Bangalees moved on? Does not look like it to me, every media that talks about the conflict referes to Pakistan and the army in the most derogatory manner. E.g. "Pakistani colonialism" or "atrocities by the army of occupation." Moving on unilaterally leaves the other party the freedom to turn their lies into historical facts, and that is what has been happening to Pakistan ever since 1971. Therefore, every lie and every opportunity to perpetuate the lie must be denied, and that is one more why Rehman's remains must never be returned because it will just the fuel the demonization of Pakistan that bangalee prpopagandists have engaged in.

It is the height of naivete to expect that the return of Rehman's remains will not be used for propaganda purposes. Does anyone of remember the riots in Bangladesh a few years ago when one of their MPs flew a pakistani flag from his house? Given such extreme anti-Pakistani sentiments, the only reasons the remains are being asked for is for propaganda purposes and I don't believe it has anything to do with family concerns.

No one here is living in the past, the issue is prevention of present damage due to falsification of past events. However, it does seem some people have learnt nothing from the past as they prefer to stick their heads in the sand. What's the point of your research when you will allow the "90%" innocent personnel to be tainted by the exaggerated atrocities blamed on the remaining 10%? This is exactly what will happen if the remains are returned.

The remains do serve a deterent purpose as retaining them signifies to any potential traitor that he will never be rewarded for his treason and no act of treason will go unpunished, while the victims of treason also receive retribution for their pain and suffering.

All of you who are so eager to return Rehman's remains ever thought of asking for the remians of Pakistanis killed by Mukti Bahini and thrown in some mass grave in East Pakistan? By returning the remains you trivialize the biggest catastrophe Pakistan has ever suffered, and insult the memory of those killed trying to maintain the Pakistan founded by Qaide Azam.

NavBaby.

Abbas,

There has been a sea change in the thinking of most BDs who are not supporters of AL. AL has stuck to its position of maligning Pakistan as the reason for all ills affecting BD. However the curent govt in BD has been on very friendly terms with Pakistan. They accepted in principle that Pakistan admits that what happened was wrong but that is the extent of it. When PM went to BD, he even visited their memorial for those who died during the 1971 crises and BDs in general appreciated it.

Now as to your last para about us getting the remains of those murdered by MB is pointless. Most people in Pakistan realize that regardless of where you died and were buried, now you are with the Almighty. As far as insulting the memory of those who died maintaining/defending the Pakistan of QA, I think the ones who insulted the QA were the likes of Bhutto, Mujeeb and Yayha (to a very lesser extent than the first two) and not folks who are calling for someone's remains to be returned. I think you are getting a bit too "jazbaati" about this stuff. Chill bro! :p


It is the height of naivete to expect that the return of Rehman's remains will not be used for propaganda purposes. Does anyone of remember the riots in Bangladesh a few years ago when one of their MPs flew a pakistani flag from his house? Given such extreme anti-Pakistani sentiments, the only reasons the remains are being asked for is for propaganda purposes and I don't believe it has anything to do with family concerns.

So what kind of propaganda can be done with his remains? All they can do is to glorify this guy (something that they already do among many others who did not side with west Pakistan in 1971). I mean the more I read and think about this 1971 episode, the more I am confronted by the issue of context or opinion. BDs will always hold our villains to be their heroes and the other way around...so for how long will we keep on doing this? The more of a hard reaction the BDs see in us regarding the 1971 tragedy, the more resolute becomes their negative opinion about west Pakistan. I mean really where does this all end?? I think I have certainly seen the amount of negative propaganda against Pakistan by the BDs come down quite a few notches (maybe its because the BDs I meet are not very narrow minded and still living in the past). Maybe they too are realizing that living in the past is just not worth it. (BTW, my family knew a lot of good officers who lost their lives in EP, so I am not removed from the loss that we all feel).

[Zain Abbass]

I did not mean my comments for you but the other Abbass (NavBaby).
But you have raised a very interested point which I did not get before. So the question then is who were these people, what was their agenda, and what did we handle the problem in the right way? Did not most of the Bengalis want the same thing? Were they not correct to go for that agenda?

Better still, how could the problem have been solved in a better way??
Once again in my view the esclation of the civil war was caused by India. They were waiting and waiting for this perfect chance and when they saw it at a grassroots level they tried to further incite violence. Who knows they probaly even promised the rebels they would help them if they rebeled. I dont think Pakistan could have done anything but remove Yayha but the tensions would still remain as they had been there even before Yayha's time. I am not sure what the Bengalis wanted but I am sure they were kicking themselves after 1972 when they needed Jute processing factories :p . The fact that this entire thing went out of control was because of the fact that there was also 1000 miles between both sections of the country. Once again my personal view here as a endnote...I think it was for the best since Bengladesh is having lots of flooding problems and some scientists say Bengladesh will be underwater in 2050 :p . We will have a population of 269 million people in 2050(something I calculated today :D ).


So what kind of propaganda can be done with his remains? All they can do is to glorify this guy (something that they already do among many others who did not side with west Pakistan in 1971). I mean the more I read and think about this 1971 episode, the more I am confronted by the issue of context or opinion. BDs will always hold our villains to be their heroes and the other way around...so for how long will we keep on doing this? The more of a hard reaction the BDs see in us regarding the 1971 tragedy, the more resolute becomes their negative opinion about west Pakistan. I mean really where does this all end?? I think I have certainly seen the amount of negative propaganda against Pakistan by the BDs come down quite a few notches (maybe its because the BDs I meet are not very narrow minded and still living in the past). Maybe they too are realizing that living in the past is just not worth it. (BTW, my family knew a lot of good officers who lost their lives in EP, so I am not removed from the loss that we all feel).
I got 6 Bengalis on my forum that I had to ban because they kept critisizing Pakistan over and over and they kept posting crap from 1971. When they were confronted they didnt like it so they started to flame a bit. So with personal experience I will vouch for your claim that they are narrow minded and living in the past.

[SSAAD]

Aside from the stuff in the press nowadays, its a well known fact that Yahya Khan more than anyone else bent over backwards in trying to placate both Mujeeb and Bhutto. He tried to play the role of the peacemaker but since the tragedy of the 71 breakup was so immense, all his peacemaking went to the side and people on remember him as one who led the country at the time of its breakup...

On the issue of BD being alone, I think thay are doing just fine on their own now...their economy has been doing well and I would not be surprised that they overtake Pakistan's GDP in the future...(something that the idiots who are busy burning Pakistani franchises need to realize). I wish the two could have been together but that is naive and wishful thinking on my part. The fact of the matter is that being phyically disparate, it was not very feasible from the getgo but still it was a beautiful idea to tie two entities together based on the bonds of Islam. Flooding will be checked by engineering and better construction as their economy grows and they can put more capital on the infrastructure.

I got 6 Bengalis on my forum that I had to ban because they kept critisizing Pakistan over and over and they kept posting crap from 1971. When they were confronted they didnt like it so they started to flame a bit. So with personal experience I will vouch for your claim that they are narrow minded and living in the past.

Yes I have run into those as well but in my experience, they have mostly been the AL types and correctly so as you point out, rabidly anti-Pakistani and quite hopeless. But again, I have run into Pakistanis who do not give a rat's behind about any of the Pakistanis left in BD now either....so again there is a need to balance out the opinion and not generalize if it can be helped...(is it me or have others noticed too that most BDs who are Islamically inclined are not very anti-Pakistani, usually its the mostly the liberal BDs with affinity towards AL who are anti-Pakistani).

[Abbas]

Dear Abbass,

If I may, then I would like to ask you to please reconsider your ideas of loyalty and treason. And concept of countries. If you would look at the history of the World then you would see that countries have been created, changed, broken up, merged, etc. So you can not hold anyone to be always loyal to a country when countries are bound to change.

Salman, I am a little shocked to read the above quoted para. If countries are bound to be broken up, changed, etc. then why did our grand-parents found Pakistan? Why has Pakistan, or any other country for that matter, fought wars of survival? Why has Pakistan endured so much hardship to acquire nuclear technology? If citizens are not required to be loyal to their country then why have any borders at all? I guess you would not mind if each province of Pakistan broke away too? It seems like a prescription for anarchy to me.

I would argue that citizens have a duty of loyalty to their country because they enjoy the collective benefits and protection that the state provides them. This is a critical requirement for a modern state.

Loyalty can only be to the concept of truth and fairness. In the US, the oath requires you to be loyal to the US Constitution (supposedly a very fair document) and not to the US - the country. It is a concept, which I don't know how well practiced. Do you think a Muslim is required to be loyal to a country, a friend, or to the truth? We are required to bear witness to truth no matter what party is involved in the dispute.

I would disagree somewhat with you here. Loyalty cannot only be to truth and fairness. Truth and fairness are relative concepts; what is true and fair from my perspective may not necessarily be so from another's. E.g. Pakistan and Bangladesh. I think truth and fairness are components in the aggregate concept of national loyalty which also includes the state, its institutions and citizens. One does not need a specific country with real estate to be true and fair, you can pursue truth and fairness in any country. Similarly you do not need a country to be a Muslim, you can be a Muslim anywhere in the world. Nevertheless in today's world you are not just a Muslim, but also a citizen of a state that caters for your needs in this life, and I beleive you owe that state your loyalty vis-a-vis other states.

You are right that the oath in the US requires loyalty to the constitution, but please take your analysis a little deeper. The preamble to the US constitution defines the country: "We the people of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union..." What is this union? It is the country, and by swearing oath to the constitution you are swearing loyalty to the country. Why did the Americans fight a civil war? It was not just to abolish slavery, but also to prevent the South from breaking away. It would have made no difference to the constitution had the South been allowed to secede, but it would have made all the difference to the country of United States.

I am not asking anyone to lie, all I am saying is don't believe the lies being told about Pakistan wrt the E. Pakistan conflict, and don't create opportunities for these lies to perpetuate.

Coming to treason. Was the war of 1857 an act of treason? Or was it a war for freedom. The soldiers who took part in it had taken an oath for the crown. Do you consider them traitors? Obviously not. To us they will always be freedom fighters.

And why did we ask for a separate Pakistan and break India? Is that treason? what if our demands for a separate country had been refused? Should we have started a war of freedom? What were our loyalties supposed to be? And we had inequallities before and after independence.

No valid comparison can be made between 1857 and 1971. The 1857 rebellion was against a European power that had imposed its rule over the local people through force of arms. No one in the sub-continent freely chose to be an imperial subject. However, the bangalees chose to be part of Pakistan, no one put a gun to their head and said they must become Pakistanis. They derived tremendous benefits from the establishment of Pakistan. Do you know that E. Pakistan contributed only 4% of the national revenue (tax), whereas it received over 49% of national funds? The amount of investment that went into E. Pakistan during the Ayub Khan years had never been witnessed before in the history of the region. Unlike the colonists and their subjects of 1857, the bangalees were just as much Pakistanis as you and me, and their complaints of discrimination are wildly exaggerated.

I am appalled that you would state that Pakistan broke India. That is the oldest Bharati propaganda, and look how easily you repeat it. Pakistan broke from a colonial creation that the British called India. India was forced into unity through the oppression of colonialism, it was not one country through the free choice of its people. Left to its own devices, India was a bunch of small states fighting each other. Even under the Moghul Empire of which we are so proud, India was united by conquest and not by free choice. This Indian identity that we see today was created by the British, and the Bharatis adopted this colonial definition of themselves out of free will on Aug. 15, 1947, by which time Pakistan had already come into existence, so there can be no question of Pakistan breaking India or being trecherous to it.

Contrary to the Bharatis, Pakistanis refused to have their identity defined by their colonial masters. However we also knew that we could never re-create the Moghul empire so we made our own arrangements. The bangalees freely agreed to be part of this arrangement, yet they betrayed it and that is treason.

Comming to BanglaDesh war. It is true that the Bengalis started the riots and killings first. But they did it after the fact that we had refused to let them form a government. Also, if you can not trust your officers to let them fight with you then the writing is on the wall for everyone to see. Imagine if we had the sanity to say, well, we don't want to let them rule us because we are superior to them (ever heard the term 'bhuka bengali' and they are 'ghadars by nature'), and so they really don't want to be with us so we should just let them go free. It was all this nonsense of "Pakistan will not break" as if it was written in some scriptures.

Whether they asked India for help, or India jumped in to settle old scores, is besides the point. They wanted freedom and were unfortunately willing to do what ever to get it as we were willing to use what ever force to keep them with us. May be at that time they saw India as a lesser evil than Pakistan. Do we ever wonder if WE were loyal to THEM? Did WE not commit treason??

And the question should not be if they could have achieved freedom without Indian help or if we could have won the war by soem brilliant military strategy. The question should be what were we doing trying to do keep them with us. Why did we not just let them go??


I request that you think about what I have written for a day or so and see if it makes any sense.

The killings had been going on since 1967 while the elections did not take place until 1970, so I have to disagree with your contention that these started after AL were denied an opportunity to form a government. Also please don't make Pakistan adopt the blame for denial of AL's right to form a government, which was a situation created by Z.A.Bhutto's machinations. This refusal to let the majority party form the government was a crime against all Pakistanis, and not just bangalees. If AL had been sincere, it would have struggled on behalf of all Pakistanis and not just bangalees. However AL had a separatist agenda, and had been calling for Bangladesh for years before the 1970 elections.

The racist terms you quoted have existed prior to the emergence of Pakistan, so please don't lay the blame for them at Pakistan's door. Also the discrimination argument is exaggerated, as Pakistan did have bungalee PMs in the past. In fact if you were a W. Pakistani in E. Pakistan, it is you who suffered discrimination. If you opened a branch office in E. Pakistan, the bungalees would demand that a bungalee head that office whether he was qualified or not - and it is a fact that human resource capital was poorly qualified in E. Pakistan.

It also does not say in any scriptures that there should be a Pakistan, should we then just dissolve the country? Why was Pakistan formed, so that it could explode into pieces and be a laughing stock for the world? This has nothing to do with scriptures, rather it relates to how we organize ourselves to live our lives according to the values we cherish. Pakistan's founding values were unity for Muslims of South Asia, free of threats to their lives and property from a majority whose culture was based on institutionalized discrimination, so that Muslims too could have a fair chance for peace, progress and prosperity.

Don't tell me the bungalees never benefitted from this ideal, as this ideal has not yet been reached and many in Pakistan are still far from realizing this objective. However, just because the founding ideals of Pakistan have not yet been realized it does not mean that these ideals are not worthwhile, or its citizens should not endeavor to establish them. Many, many countries in the world are struggling to meet their founding ideals, and like Pakistan they also have groups who suffer from inequities, but unlike Pakistan these groups refocus to achieve their original values, instead of throwing them in the garbage can.

Maybe you'll never come round to seeing my point of view, but at the very least please don't be an apologist for treason.


Abbas,

There has been a sea change in the thinking of most BDs who are not supporters of AL. AL has stuck to its position of maligning Pakistan as the reason for all ills affecting BD. However the curent govt in BD has been on very friendly terms with Pakistan. They accepted in principle that Pakistan admits that what happened was wrong but that is the extent of it. When PM went to BD, he even visited their memorial for those who died during the 1971 crises and BDs in general appreciated it.

Now as to your last para about us getting the remains of those murdered by MB is pointless. Most people in Pakistan realize that regardless of where you died and were buried, now you are with the Almighty. As far as insulting the memory of those who died maintaining/defending the Pakistan of QA, I think the ones who insulted the QA were the likes of Bhutto, Mujeeb and Yayha (to a very lesser extent than the first two) and not folks who are calling for someone's remains to be returned. I think you are getting a bit too "jazbaati" about this stuff. Chill bro! :p


So what kind of propaganda can be done with his remains? All they can do is to glorify this guy (something that they already do among many others who did not side with west Pakistan in 1971). I mean the more I read and think about this 1971 episode, the more I am confronted by the issue of context or opinion. BDs will always hold our villains to be their heroes and the other way around...so for how long will we keep on doing this? The more of a hard reaction the BDs see in us regarding the 1971 tragedy, the more resolute becomes their negative opinion about west Pakistan. I mean really where does this all end?? I think I have certainly seen the amount of negative propaganda against Pakistan by the BDs come down quite a few notches (maybe its because the BDs I meet are not very narrow minded and still living in the past). Maybe they too are realizing that living in the past is just not worth it. (BTW, my family knew a lot of good officers who lost their lives in EP, so I am not removed from the loss that we all feel).

Yes Saad, maybe I am being jazbaati, perhaps because I lived the horrors of that era, but I don't want to get into my own experiences. Maybe it is because I beleive in the dreams of Pakistan's founders, and am not prepared to see these diluted. Maybe because I feel bangalees were never truly loyal to Pakistan, and they just used Pakistan's ideology to achive their nationhood. I don't know

But I know I am sick and tired of Pakistan being blamed for every ill in the region by every Tom, Dick and Karzai.... ooops... I meant Harry, and am disappointed by Pakistanis who lack a sense of nationhood to such an extent that they won't stand up for their dignity.

Fine, I agree that we are all with the Almighty once we die irrespective of where we are buried, so why dig up the remains and create an opportunity for an anti-Pakistani tamasha. The same old BS about Pakistan Army killing a gazillion civilians will be vomitted all over the internet, reinforcing the already negative perception of Pakistan in countries important for Pakistan's progress.

Why don't we ask the Bangladeshis where it will end? As you said, PM already expressed his regrets for Pak Army's excesses (much to my disappointment), when will the Bangladeshis express regret for their excesses? Why should Pakistan always have to bend over backwards for everyone? Where do you draw the line?

Anyway, this is my last post on the issue. I have a huge exam next week and I have blown my evening study session responding to posts here.

NavBaby.

[AGKhan]

The killings had been going on since 1967 while the elections did not take place until 1970, so I have to disagree with your contention that these started after AL were denied an opportunity to form a government. Also please don't make Pakistan adopt the blame for denial of AL's right to form a government, which was a situation created by Z.A.Bhutto's machinations. This refusal to let the majority party form the government was a crime against all Pakistanis, and not just bangalees. If AL had been sincere, it would have struggled on behalf of all Pakistanis and not just bangalees. However AL had a separatist agenda, and had been calling for Bangladesh for years before the 1970 elections.

Navbaby,

Its very convenient to shift the blame of not allowing the AL to form the majority government on "ZA Bhuttos Machinations". The truth is when the AL was not allowed to form the majority, the bulk of the public opinion inWest Paksitan was actually on the side of Bhutto. The people are not fools to be misled by one idiot liek bhutto. Whatever you may say, the people of west pakistan really did not want a majority govt led by the AL. Regardless of what the negative attributes of AL are, if they had won the election, then they had the RIGHT to form the govt. now denying them the right and asking them to show patience is just hypocrisy.

Also this repetion of "I am bad because they are bad" is a little bit tiring. So the Bengalies were not humane, so should that be the reason for some of Pak Armed Forces to carry out excesses? The excesses , even done in a minority are still a blot on the Army. People writing about it saying ' The Bengalies did it first, The Bengalies killed more' are just apologists. Why should you get down to that dirty level just because they did it first ?

what about Air Cmde Zafar Masud - Is he a traitor for refusing to strafe the mob at Dhaka? Isn't refusing the order to send the Sabres treason? Masud did the right thing because it was correct - the PAF Hierarchy was wrong in that case. And I still stick to my belief that grounding the pilots was wrong.

There is another aspects - Officers are always above petty differentiations like ethnicity, language, tribal loyalties etc. But cast a doubt on thier loyalty and integrity , and they are the very qualities that you cant take for granted anymore.

Coming to Matiur Rahmans remains.

Due to the conditions at that time - and the atmosphere - Matiur Rahman was buried in the section of a graveyard reserved for servants. NOw percieve that from teh Bangladesh viewpoint - the fact an Officer was buried in a graveyard for servants is percieved as an insult - whether that was the objective or not.

In all the wars with India, we have returned bodies and remains where possible (And the indians did the same). Why cannot we do the same with Bangladesh?

[AGKhan]

One final point from my side.

Keeping aside the national interests, we should send back his remains for the sake of his family. We have allowed his daughter and son to visit the grave in the past. if they wish to have his remains closer home, they should be allowed. Why are we making a few bones such a big issue ?

[SSAAD]

Why don't we ask the Bangladeshis where it will end? As you said, PM already expressed his regrets for Pak Army's excesses (much to my disappointment), when will the Bangladeshis express regret for their excesses? Why should Pakistan always have to bend over backwards for everyone? Where do you draw the line?

Anyway, this is my last post on the issue. I have a huge exam next week and I have blown my evening study session responding to posts here.

NavBaby.

Abbas,

Thanks for the detailed response. I respect your feelings about this situation. One thing that I wanted to mention was that PM did not express regrets only for the PA's excesses, he actually said that both sides committed excesses and now we should move on. The fact that he was the first Pakistani leader to admit that excesses were commited by both was a step forward and that is the extent of it.

Good luck on your exam! ;)

[SyedF]

Coming to Matiur Rahmans remains.

Due to the conditions at that time - and the atmosphere - Matiur Rahman was buried in the section of a graveyard reserved for servants. NOw percieve that from teh Bangladesh viewpoint - the fact an Officer was buried in a graveyard for servants is percieved as an insult - whether that was the objective or not.

Why in the world did they have a section reserved for servants??? Can’t a servant be buried next to an Officer?? Naozobillah do Officers get special treatment from Angels??? Burying a servant next to an officer would confuse them I guess; now you wouldn’t want that would you???:p

I was under the impression, that you are treated as per your deed and taqwa, not rank.:rolleyes: Guess I better call uncle Mushy and get commissioned or I won't be going to Jannah!!! ;)

[SSAAD]

This is not true. In Armed Forces graveyards, there are graves of offrs and ORs. Its just that most of the ORs are given a funeral and burried in their native areas as their families are back there and they prefer that. This is unlike most of the offrs who are urbanized and as such given burials in the cities.

[Harisz]

Of all threads this thread was the last place to renew discussions on the was and was nots of the 1971 crisis. Everyone knows these arguments have no end.
There are only two things in general that all Pakistanis and Bangladeshis should understand and agree to:

1. Regardless of who and what we hold liable for all that happened to Jinnah's Pakistan in 1971, what happened happened, and we can only accept it by accepting our share of blame and by stoping to blame the other.
2. It is all in the past, it's history, it's in the records and we will all live with it the way it is, therefore revisiting the haunting past every other day is useless, we will all accept and study it and draw lessons, and leave it at that and move on and make sure such history is never repeated.

And as also mentioned above by SSaad in post # 64, in a way it can be said that what Gen Musharraf did on his trip to Dhaka was more or less this very thing; he broke the awkward uneasiness there had been and while accepting some blame he did not step behind to accept all blame but clearly implied that both parties shared all and with that accepted both parties are willing to look fwd to a better future.

Then after that we move on to building better relations and hoping for highly friendly & brotherly relations and hoping for a peaceful, stable and harmonious south asia. Even for moving onto stability with India in the years to come both countries will have to adapt steps of this sort and move stage by stage.

Personally speaking, I have come across numerous Bangladeshis even those who served in the BD armed forces, who in one way or the other mention their regrets for what happened. But, not exploiting their sentiment, I mention that just to highlight the point that both Pakistanis and Bangladeshis have already moved on to the 'forgive and forget' stage with the lessons learned retained in mind. Bitterness is bitterness and cant be sweetened, but whats bitter should stay away from the taste buds and remain only for specific use, in this case study and drawing conclusions.

Now getting back to the issue of Mati-ur-Rehman’s remains: Internationally speaking both RM and Mati are equal in decorations, RM got the NH and Mati was given the BS which was introduced as the new country BD’s highest military award. Now technically speaking, RM will always be a hero to us and Mati a traitor and deserter; an enemy. For the other side RM would remain a symbol of tyranny or oppression or whatever and Mati the ultimate hero. Now no matter how we accept the whole thing or how Bangladesh accepts the past, and how we admit blame or deny it, these facts remain facts. Our rethinking or sympathizing, if at all, can not and should not make any difference to the fcat that our hero was an enemy to them and their hero a traitor to us. Therefore, with all that accepted, we should move on to the next level of maturity and think in broader terms; In celebration of the spirit of soldiering and as tribute to the profession all armed forces respect the fallen of the enemy and acknowledge their valor when reqd. We’re not sure exactly how RM is regarded in BD but we can assure Bdeshis that Mati is surely NOT DISRESPECTED in Pakistan. The armed forces of Pakistan like in good military tradition honour the fallen enemy and even most Pakistanis like all of us who know follow that principle, and in this case respect Ft Lt Mati-ur-Rehman BS as a soldier, killed in action, a brave person, with strong ideologies and the courage to act for what he believed in. Now accepting that does not mean we are stepping back and saying that he was not an enemy or was not a traitor or that it was only us WPakistanis at fault that caused all this etc, or it does not mean we are stepping back from what we believe in, that’s all irrelevant while discussing this issue. Having said all this, I believe there’s no valid point in BD requesting a return of Mati’s remains. They are resting in peace at a secure important and respectable military location among fellow muslims. The only argument given fwd to seek his remains is that he lies buried in a graveyard meant for servants. That is not true. He was buried on the evening of 20 Aug 1971 while the chronology of events and the cause of crash was still not fully confirmed, it was all done amidst confusion and the Janaza prayers for both were held together if I remember having heard right from a very good source. RM’s family lived at PECHS in KHI at the time and requested his burial to take place close by at the Fauji Qabrustan behind Shara-e-Faisal near the CSD. Plus Mati’s body was intact as has been clear from some of the forensic study by some renowned officers who are writers and researchers discussed on previous pages. So at that time there seemed to be no reason for the base authorities to bury Mati in some disrespectful way at some lowly place; which I think is a concept unheard of in Islam and Pakistan. If there is at all, the diff between officer and OR burial places is described by SSaad above. Hence, that grave is in good condition and is important for Pakistan aswell. His family and govt have access to the site by special permission and the authorities have and would always oblige. All this should rest all concerns leaving no fair reasons to disturb what has been buried for 35 years. Let the man rest in peace.

Meanwhile does anyone have any good sources from the foreign office or the defense ministry who could confirm whether Bangladesh has ever filed a formal request or have they ever even discussed this issue at any level officially? This recent trip included?

[iqbal's]

Navbaby,

Coming to Matiur Rahmans remains.

Due to the conditions at that time - and the atmosphere - Matiur Rahman was buried in the section of a graveyard reserved for servants. NOw percieve that from teh Bangladesh viewpoint - the fact an Officer was buried in a graveyard for servants is percieved as an insult - whether that was the objective or not.

In all the wars with India, we have returned bodies and remains where possible (And the indians did the same). Why cannot we do the same with Bangladesh?

Never heard of a special graveyards for servants anywhere in pakistan.Please tell us your source for this information or post an appology.Just trying to confuse the issue by not investigating your "facts" should not be allowed or indulged in.Seperate grave yards do exist for differant religions not not for your station in life.
Iqbal

[AGKhan]

Its official now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4928268.stm

Bengali hero's remains given back

By Zaffar Abbas
BBC News, Islamabad
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/999999.gif

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41582000/jpg/_41582192_mrahman_203.jpg Rehman was given the highest Bangladeshi gallantry award

Pakistan has agreed to hand over to Bangladesh the remains of a Bengali air force officer after 35 years. Flight Lieutenant M Matiur Rehman, now a decorated war hero in Bangladesh, died in August 1971.

He was killed while trying to fly away with a Pakistan air force jet, just before Bangladesh's independence.

The move follows a formal request from Bangladesh Prime Minister Begum Khalida Zia during a recent visit to Islamabad, the foreign office told the BBC.

Pakistani foreign ministry spokesperson Tasneem Aslam called it a goodwill gesture, but declined to comment on the tricky issue which was linked to the Bengali air officer's role in the struggle for the creation of Bangladesh.

An official of Bangladesh's High Commission in Islamabad said arrangements were being finalised to take Rehman's remains to Dhaka, but did not give any date.

War hero

Rehman was a flight lieutenant in the Pakistani air force when he attempted to hijack a jet aircraft during a training flight.

Pakistan has always maintained that the trainee pilot, Rashid Minhas, prevented the attempted hijacking, which resulted in the aircraft crashing shortly before leaving Pakistani airspace on 20 August, 1971.

Both Rehman and Minhas were killed.

Minhas was immediately decorated with Pakistan's highest gallantry award, the Nishan-e-Haider, and Rehman declared a traitor.

But as East Pakistan became Bangladesh in December 1971 after the country's war with India, the newly independent state declared Rehman as one of its war heroes.

He was decorated with Bangladesh's highest military honour - the Bir Sreshtho.

Once the remains are taken back to Dhaka, they will be buried with full military honours, the Bangladesh high commission official said.

[Harisz]

Exactly as I had predicted during BD PMs recent visit.
Let's see how and when it's done...
A historic event indeed.


P.S. Was my post on this news on 19th Apr moved, and why...?

[JunaidNasir]

During the time of the British, to manage the tea plantations, the British use to bring in managers/management from other parts of the subcontinent mostly from bihar and never faced any problems with the running of these establishments. (think about it and you will get the reasons where Pak went wrong). ;)

Now that Bangladesh is a seperate country and they fought against us and got independance, than why is it that even now there are more than 2 million illigal bagalis just in Khi. (moin haider ex-governor sind is on record saying so). What are they doin in Pak when they were self sufficent in 71 with the production of jute as mujeeb ur rahman could smell it on the roads of Islamabad.

I dont think our leaders have learnt any lessons fro 71 as they are still repeating the same mistakes and giving indian the chance to exploit our short commings and weaknessess to the max.(two can play that game though, khalistan)

[masood]

The current 2 M+ bengalis living in Pakistan are not remnants of benglais left behind in '71. There were a lot of Bengalis who chose to stay in Pakistan instead of moving to BD. Some of the benglais who went back kept their pakistani passports in addition to the Begladeshi Passports. Inspite of what they say about how west pakistanis maltreated the bengalis, I don't think any bengali in West pakistan was even injured, much less killed after '71 when they were leaving for BD. They left with their lives and property.
Most of the present bengali population in Pakistan are the ones who crossed Ind-BD border illegaly, then made horrendous journey across India and then crossed the Pak-Ind border, starting mainly in the 80's and process is still going on. I know of friends who, while on Border duty/patrols, would catch a Bengali crossing the border and they would let them go.
At present, most of the household help in Karachi are from BD and almost 50% of the textile industry are of BD origin/immigtrants.
I am proud of the fact that we as a nation have been hospitable for immigrants in need, be they Afghans, Bengalis or Bosnians. We absorbed refugees, fleeing for their lives, in '47 with open arms which made almost 25% of our then population. We are a nation fouded to give sanctuary to muslims and I hope we don't get xenophobic and start questioning why these people are there. Say what you want about pakistan and its corruption etc. etc. but our basic character is warm and open-heartedness. Let's not lose that to hateful rightwinger xenophbes.
Remember how it feels when illegal pakistanis are treated in middle east and in the US and west and how we feel when there are movements to get rid of them, let's not do that to the ones in the same situation in our country. They are there to make a better life and let's empathise with them.

[msalman]

Now that Bangladesh is a seperate country and they fought against us and got independance, than why is it that even now there are more than 2 million illigal bagalis just in Khi. (moin haider ex-governor sind is on record saying so). What are they doin in Pak when they were self sufficent in 71 with the production of jute as mujeeb ur rahman could smell it on the roads of Islamabad.

Unfortunately similar argument is used by some extreme Indians about the 200+ million Muslims left in India.

[JunaidNasir]

Unfortunately similar argument is used by some extreme Indians about the 200+ million Muslims left in India.

That is indeed unfortunate, as the 200 million+ muslims ur talkin about have been in India since even before partition, even before the british, its not like one fine day 200 million muslims felt the urge to move to india.
The 2 million bangalis that are in Khi are illigal economic imigrants who entered Pak iligally after 71 n on wards. The bangalis who decided to stay in Pak after 71 are Pakistanis and i dont remember even a single incident where it has been said other wise or me or any 1 else has any quams about it.

I hope that clears things

[msalman]

Yes. Thanks.

[SyedF]

That is indeed unfortunate, as the 200 million+ muslims ur talkin about have been in India since even before partition, even before the british, its not like one fine day 200 million muslims felt the urge to move to india.
The 2 million bangalis that are in Khi are illigal economic imigrants who entered Pak iligally after 71 n on wards. The bangalis who decided to stay in Pak after 71 are Pakistanis and i dont remember even a single incident where it has been said other wise or me or any 1 else has any quams about it.

I hope that clears things
Btw, when you hear stories of Pakistanis being caught, trying to enter European or GCC countries illegally, usually a good percentage of these so-called "Pakistanis" are Bengalis on Pakistani passports.

Brother Junaid is absolutely right in saying that these are economic migrants.

In my opinion, we should deport these 2 million back and bring the biharis who still call themselves Pakistanis and are living in despicable living conditions, confined to refugee camps.

[msalman]

In my opinion, we should deport these 2 million back and bring the biharis who still call themselves Pakistanis and are living in despicable living conditions, confined to refugee camps

Now, that is an excellent point.

[AGKhan]

This has come as a surprise to me. spurred by a wikipedia entry, Igoogled and found that Mati-Ur-Rahmans remains have already been repatriated to Bangladesh.

http://www.dawn.com/2006/06/25/int4.htm

Rahman’s remains returned to BD

DHAKA, June 24: Thirty-five years ago, Matiur Rahman, an air force officer from former East Pakistan, tried to defect in his military jet from Karachi to join the guerillas fighting the Pakistan Army in his homeland.

Rashid Minhas, his co-pilot, forced the jet to crash, killing them both.

The Bangladesh government had asked Pakistan to return Rahman’s remains after a request by his family.

The pilot’s remains finally returned home on Saturday for a state funeral.

M. Matiur Rahman’s flag-draped coffin was received by Bangladesh Prime Minister Khaleda Zia on behalf of the nation, as members of the country’s defence forces gave a guard of honour, broadcast live by the state-run Bangladesh Television.

Rahman’s widow Milly, relatives and former colleagues were also present at Dhaka’s Zia International Airport.

“It’s going to be a special day for the nation,” Milly Rahman said earlier. “The son of this soil is coming back, I am grateful to all for making it true.”

Air Force officers acted as pallbearers as the coffin was unloaded from a special flight of the national carrier, Biman Bangladesh. A six-member official team from Bangladesh had gone to Karachi to accompany the coffin.

Rahman’s coffin will be kept at a national parade ground in the capital for public viewing on Sunday, and his remains will be buried with state honours along side other independence heroes, the Ministry of Liberation War Affairs said in a statement.

A commissioned air force officer, Rahman died on Aug 20, 1971, in a plane crash as he tried to flee Karachi across India to East Pakistan in an air force training craft. India had sealed its land border for the duration of the war.

Rahman was training the second pilot, Rashid Minhas, at the time he made his escape attempt. Minhas is said to have forced the plane to crash. Both men died.

Rashid Minhas became the youngest air force officer in Pakistan to get the highest military award, the Nishan-i- Haider.

In Islamabad, foreign ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam said the request to return the remains were part of government policy to improve relations between the two nations.

Matiur Rahman was given the title of Bir Shrestha, or Greatest of the Heroes, by the Bangladesh government for his attempt to defect.—AP

http://nation.ittefaq.com/artman/exec/view.cgi/51/28740/printer



From New Nation Online Edition
Front Page
Nation receives mortal remains of Bir Shrestra Matiur Rahman
By Staff Reporter
Sat, 24 Jun 2006, 10:34:00

The nation received the mortal remains of Bir Shrestra Matiur Rahman after 35 years yesterday night with state honour and solemnity.

Prime Minister Begum Khaleda Zia received the remains at the ZIA International Airport (ZIA) when it returned to the country for the liberation of which he accepted martyrdom during the War of Liberation 35 years back in 1971.
http://nation.ittefaq.com/artman/uploads/pic4_366.jpg
Among 45 members of his family, his wife Mily Rahman and youngest daughter Tuhin Matiur Haidar, members of the Cabinet, Chiefs of three Services and senior military officers were present when the Prime Minister received the remains of Shaheed Flight Lieutenant Matiur Rahman on behalf of the nation.

Mily Rahman, Tuhin Matiur Haidar along with other members of his family burst into tears as the special flight of Bangladesh Biman carrying the remains landed at Zia International Airport at 10:15 PM. Prime Minister Begum Khaleda Zia consoled Mily and Tuhin.

Four senior officers of three Services carried his coffin to a specially erected podium from inside the flight. The Prime Minister placed floral wreath on the coffin first. Chiefs of three Services and his wife and daughter also placed wreaths.

A specially turned out contingent gave guard of honour to the late Birshretra.

The remains of Matiur Rahman was brought back from Pakistan. He was first buried at graveyard of Masur Base, Karachi in Pakistan.

Pakistan government handed over the remains to a 20-member official delegation of Bangladesh’s Ministry of Liberation War Affairs at a simple ceremony in Karachi yesterday morning. Members of the delegation included his elder brother Khorshed Alam.

The valiant Bir Shrestra will be reburied at Shaheed Intellectuals Graveyard with full state-honour by 12 noons today. Earlier, at 10 AM his remains will be taken to the National Parade Square for a special prayer.

People from all strata of life will be allowed to pay respect to the great son of the soil after the prayers.

The remains of Matiur Rahman was taken to the Dhaka Cantonment from the ZIA to keep it under the care of Bangladesh Air Force.

The Liberation War Affairs Ministry yesterday urged all freedom fighters and members of all strata of the society in the capital to take part at the special prayers at the National Parade Square this morning.




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This happened about a couple of weeks ago.