PAF pilots in Middle Eastern Air Forces

[SyedA]

Guess who?

[Usman Shabbir]

Guess who?

And what if my answer is correct? What prize do I get?:)

[SyedA]

None..... :)

Usman I finally got the permission. SO here it is...... :)

[Usman Shabbir]

None..... :)

Usman I finally got the permission. SO here it is...... :)

I will see if I can get permission to post one or two more.

[SyedA]

Just an FYI, his picture was also published in Defenders of Pakistan

[H Khan]

? J-10.........

[zeeshan]

Assalam oalaukum,

am i missing something???? what are you guys talking about....who is this guy? :confused:

[SyedA]

PAF "then" Squadron Leader Kaiser Tufail, His piture was also published in Defenders of Pakistan. Now he is an Air Commodore in Karachi.

[Muhammad Hasan]

PAF "then" Squadron Leader Kaiser Tufail, His piture was also published in Defenders of Pakistan. Now he is an Air Commodore in Karachi.

Ask him what "PGs" are doing in Karachi? Ohh sorry, my mistake. The whole Pakistan is there air space. :cool:

[Usman Shabbir]

Picture taken in 1976 when PAF pilot Saleem Baig Mirza (retired as Wg Cdr) was commanding this Mirage squadron of UAEAF. You can also see late Mushaf Ali Mir in the picture.

Standing L to R:
Flt Lts. Tariq N Syed, Nazar Hayat, S/Ldr Bashir Chaudhary, S/Ldr Saleem Baig, Flt Lt Rahim Yousufzai, Iqbal Sheik, Ilyas Baig.

Sitting L to R:
Mushaf Ali Mir, Saleem (UAE), Ibrahim Rasool (UAE), Shamsi (UAE) and Haidi Risvi.

[RMS Azam]

PAF "then" Squadron Leader Kaiser Tufail, His piture was also published in Defenders of Pakistan. Now he is an Air Commodore in Karachi.

He's heading the Air War College.

[Rashid]

AOA

No RMS he is Base Commander PAF Base Masroor.

[SyedA]

He use to be at Air War COllege not anymore, this was few years ago. Now, like Rashid said base commander at Masroor.

[majithia]

Syed,

Any info who is commander of the Shorekot base today? Was he Mushaaf Ali Mir PSO?

Mjithia

[SyedA]

I am not sure but can found out. The reason I know he is the base commander of Masroor cause I have met him at a wedding and talked.

[Usman Shabbir]

Syed,

Any info who is commander of the Shorekot base today? Was he Mushaaf Ali Mir PSO?

Mjithia

Currently it is being commanded by A/C Junaid Ameen.

[Fahad S]

wonderful pictures especially the one with Mushaf Mir

[Tom Cooper]

Is it meanwhile known which PAF pilots flew as "advisers" for the Somali Air Force, in 1977 and 1978?

Namely, I have found plenty of Somali and other reports about a sizeable group of Pakistani pilots and technicians arriving in Somalia in autumn 1977, and flying MiG-21s and MiG-17s against Ethiopia in the Ogaden War (several of them were also shot down in air combats against Ethiopian- and Israeli flown EtAF F-5s), but no names.

[H Khan]

Tom,

Also, six pilots from PIA were also send to manage and train pilots of Somalian Airlines in 1976. I have few of their photos.

[Harisz]

Hi everyone!
SyedA is the first pic really Kaiser Tufail?
and like you said his pic has been in the book defender os pakistan, is it the one where he's lookin go ver his shoulder in the Gsuit with the F16 badge on his arm, when he was squadron leader?

[Usman Shabbir]

Hi everyone!
SyedA is the first pic really Kaiser Tufail?
and like you said his pic has been in the book defender os pakistan, is it the one where he's lookin go ver his shoulder in the Gsuit with the F16 badge on his arm, when he was squadron leader?

Yes, that's him and you can see that Defenders of Pakistan picture of his here: http://lib1.store.vip.sc5.yahoo.com/lib/desistore-com/defenders1.jpg

[masood]

I know of PIA personell, both ground staff and pilots who worked in somalia and in Malta to help them setup the airline business in the late 70's. They had pretty funny stories to tell of somalia where passenges boarded the planes and travelled standing up while holding their live chickens etc. :) . I visited Malta during that time, and boy was it fun! most of the young male population of malta was away working abroad ...

About Tim Cooper's post earlier, he claims that PAF pilots were shot down by Ethiopean and Israeli pilots in that skirmish? any confirmation on that? or is Tim getting his information from the same sources as the F16 special a few months ago where they claimed threee PAF F-16's shot down by IAF in Kargil and
a couple more shot down by afghans/Soviets?

[Harisz]

Yes, that's him and you can see that Defenders of Pakistan picture of his here: http://lib1.store.vip.sc5.yahoo.com/lib/desistore-com/defenders1.jpg

Thanks Shabbir!
yeah thats the pic i had in mind. he looks very handsome in this pic. and he's a greta person. wonderful personality. do you know him? he just finished his tenure as commander Masroor base recently.

[Usman Shabbir]

I have met him once and he really has a dashing personality and of course killer (as in don’t mess with me) looks:)

[Harisz]

Yeah US, a real cool dude.
and his articles on the PAF section here are just excellent. he is an excellent writer.
when did you meet him? was it in khi?
and is there anyway i can PM you here?
and where are u these days?

[Usman Shabbir]

Yeah US, a real cool dude.
and his articles on the PAF section here are just excellent. he is an excellent writer.
when did you meet him? was it in khi?
and is there anyway i can PM you here?
and where are u these days?

The PM function is available on this board - just click on the user name and chose 'send a private message to this user'.

[M.Ghaznavi]

Is it meanwhile known which PAF pilots flew as "advisers" for the Somali Air Force, in 1977 and 1978?

Namely, I have found plenty of Somali and other reports about a sizeable group of Pakistani pilots and technicians arriving in Somalia in autumn 1977, and flying MiG-21s and MiG-17s against Ethiopia in the Ogaden War (several of them were also shot down in air combats against Ethiopian- and Israeli flown EtAF F-5s), but no names.

Tom state your source that says PAF pilots were "shot" down by ethiopians and Israelis in the Ogaden war and we will talk more. :)

State a credible source please.

[M.Ghaznavi]

Guess who?

To which Middle Eastern country does the Mirage F-1 (in the first image on this thread )belong to ? Can someone help me recognize the roundel . :confused:

Qatar is it ?

[Harisz]

yes Tauseef it's Qatar.

[Tom Cooper]

Tom state your source that says PAF pilots were "shot" down by ethiopians and Israelis in the Ogaden war and we will talk more. :)

State a credible source please.
I can't provide any names, but can say that they served with the EtAF at the time and for a number of years later (and confirmed this by details about different EtAF units through the time).

[Mazhar]

Tom,

Can u tell the time period you are talking about and the number of pilots involved etc. i have a number of family members and family friends who have served in the PAF and some are still serving. PAF is a very closely knit organization (people spend 20-30 years not only working together but with their families living together) so the pilots you are talking about would be somebody's course mate, squadron mate, friend, one or two courses senior or junior in the academy, would know their families etc etc. If somebody got shot down (even in another country) he also was probably killed or captured or went thru a not so pleasent experience. Given the close connections within PAF this would definitley be known by a number of people.

If you give me the time period I could try to do an informal check, names obviously would be much more helpful.

regards

[Tom Cooper]

We're talking here about Pakistani pilots working for Somali Air Corps, during the second phase of the Ogaden War, in late 1977/early 1978.

[Mazhar]

Thanks for the info Tom. I will try and see what info I can get. It is an absolutely new facet (for want of better word) regarding PAF or PAF pilot's cooperation with other air forces that you have brought here. It would be interesting to try and find out about it.

Although personally I am surprised at this info given that no active or retired PAF officer, civilians like us who follow PAF (and there are some very knowledgeable ones around) and even other foreign authors (including Indians) have raised this before.

Would try to get back with some info but no promises on when.

regards

[Mazhar]

Tom,

As promised, I was able to get in touch with my PAF contacts and get their response on Pakistani pilots working for Somali Air Corps, during the second phase of the Ogaden War, in late 1977/early 1978 and some of them getting shot down. Apologies about the delay on this.

I discussed this with two former PAF fighter pilots. One of them joined the air force in 1960s and served as a junior officer in the 1965 war and later in the 1971 war and retired only in 1990s. The other gentleman joined PAF in early 1970s and again left in 1990s. As both said they were in the thick of operations during 1970s and 1980s. Both during this period were also sent on deputation to Middle East and Africa. As I stated earlier these guys were in the perfect position to know about these things.

Both gentlemen strongly deny your story. They are not aware or know of any PAF pilot being involved in Somalian operations or getting shot down. Both also were very sure that they would have known about it if such an incident had happened.

I hope this adequately answers your query. Let me know if you want to know something more.

regards

[Mazhar]

Hi gentlemen,

This guy Tom Cooper is here just trying to " WING IT'. He does not have any information---he just made up an innoccous post-----possibly somebody may react and come out with some unknown information that was not supposed the be made public. Some family member may reply, hey they were not there but they were at a different place during that time. That is what my feeling is after reading his post.

That is not a correct approach in my view. Tom Coopers is a serious avaiation journalist who has done extensive research on iran iraq airwars. An area neglected by rest of the aviation journalism community. we or some may not like some of his comments but that does not mean that we start doubting their integrity. let us not fall into the trap of believing that the rest of the world is intinsicaly against pakistan.

[H Khan]

The serious problem over here is that if Tom or anyone else writes these types of unsubstantiated reports and no one cross checks these reports that in future these unsubstantiated reports are taken as the truth. We should be very careful is to how historical facts are written and understood.

I believe Pakdef members have repeatly stood tall in face of untrue stories which are label by some Joe as true and given the true face of any story which is Pakistan related.

Anyways, Yawar thanks for clearing the facts up.

[H Khan]

Someone on this forum had given me the link to ACIG org, so today I went and read few of their items. Since these ACIG people claim to be an authority in military affairs I was shocked at the level of cock-and-bull stories and misrepresentation of facts which looked to be more of true fibs rather than facts.

I stopped reading when I came across this page the INDIAN-SUBCONTINENT DATABASE, Indian Air-to-Air Victories since 1948. First, there is this typical Bharati propaganda of writing of “Indian sub continent” rather the original South Asia or the subcontinent. Hell, for these types of people everything is Indian even the American are depended on Indians/Bharati.

Okay, here was the biggest joke of this centaury.

May99 ? MiG-29 G.Chiber Lock-on 2xF-16 ?Sqn/PAF
May99 ? Mirage 2000H ? Lock-on F-16A ?Sqn/PAF**
May99 ? Mirage 2000H ? Lock-on F-16 ?Sqn/PAF**
Damaged and Close Calls entries are in VIOLET

So, when did so called “Lock-on” be credited as an air-to-air victory??? My goodness, if this is how one can measure the air-to-air victory than a lot of pilots around the world will be wearing medals on their left chest and be called gallants of their nation. So my brother in law should be credited for air-to-air victory because he locked-on to Bharati AF IL-76 while flying over the Arabian Sea??

If and when I will digest these “facts” or lies from ACIG org, than I will go and read some more of their fibs.

One question: M.Ghaznavi, is this the reason you started the thread a while back of Pak-Iran Mirage factory because someone on ACIG org is claiming ?

[M.Ghaznavi]

Someone on this forum had given me the link to ACIG org, so today I went and read few of their items. Since these ACIG people claim to be an authority in military affairs I was shocked at the level of cock-and-bull stories and misrepresentation of facts which looked to be more of true fibs rather than facts.

I stopped reading when I came across this page the INDIAN-SUBCONTINENT DATABASE, Indian Air-to-Air Victories since 1948. First, there is this typical Bharati propaganda of writing of “Indian sub continent” rather the original South Asia or the subcontinent. Hell, for these types of people everything is Indian even the American are depended on Indians/Bharati.

Okay, here was the biggest joke of this centaury.

May99 ? MiG-29 G.Chiber Lock-on 2xF-16 ?Sqn/PAF
May99 ? Mirage 2000H ? Lock-on F-16A ?Sqn/PAF**
May99 ? Mirage 2000H ? Lock-on F-16 ?Sqn/PAF**
Damaged and Close Calls entries are in VIOLET

So, when did so called “Lock-on” be credited as an air-to-air victory??? My goodness, if this is how one can measure the air-to-air victory than a lot of pilots around the world will be wearing medals on their left chest and be called gallants of their nation. So my brother in law should be credited for air-to-air victory because he locked-on to Bharati AF IL-76 while flying over the Arabian Sea??

If and when I will digest these “facts” or lies from ACIG org, than I will go and read some more of their fibs.

One question: M.Ghaznavi, is this the reason you started the thread a while back of Pak-Iran Mirage factory?

H_Khan, thanks for taking interest in ACIG. :D

Irrespective of ACIG, BhaRat RatShack or Pakdef, a lock-on is certainly no air-to-air victory. Putting an aircraft out of battle by shooting it down or damaging it(or in the rarest of cases to skillfully maneuvre and have the enemy crash its plane on a mountain, or force it to land - Gulf War and 1965 respectively :D ) is what is considered an air-to-air victory .

If you notice the classification of air-to-air encounters on that page it is given as follows :
Confirmed entries are in GREEN
New entries are in RED
Corrected entries are in YELLOW
Fratricide entries are in LIGHT BLUE
Claims and unconfirmed entries are in WHITE
Damaged and Close Calls entries are in VIOLET

Now in the light of those "IAF claimed" lock-ons on PAF Falcons, I would like to suggest to the ACIG crew to add another aspect to their air-to-air classification - that of "Unconfirmed close-calls" (somebody pick a color :D )


I would really like to see proof/sources of why the IAF lock-ons on ACIG are "confirmed" close-calls but the Pakistani Arab-Israeli war victories on ACIG are all "unconfirmed" entries. :confused:


One question: M.Ghaznavi, is this the reason you started the thread a while back of Pak-Iran Mirage factory?

The reason for starting that thread was basically because on one side we had Cooper talk about Pak and Iran wanting to open up a Mirage III/V production factory with U.S. documents as his proof and on the other side we had Mr. Saleem Hatoum saying it was Mirage F-1 with Pakistani documents as proof. Tom as usual kept denying Mr. Saleem's evidence over his own and making absurd comments about Pakistanis.
So i thought of clearing this thing once and for all.

In the end, it was the F-1 and that was a pretty interesting thread. That thread showed even someone as knowledgeable as Cooper :rolleyes: has a lot to learn about Iran-Pak relationship in the AirForce dept. Few sources stated on that thread have contradicted what Cooper had held before. Anyways.....read it here :

http://www.acig.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3149&start=0

[H Khan]

Now I can see what lead to Key Publishers claiming that Bharati AF shot down four PAF F-16 in their F-16 Special. Whoever wrote this article got their fibs about PAF F-16 being shot down from F-16.net, who in return copied these so called four "lock-on" from ACIG org and invertible translated these "lock-on" as kills. As you can see this what happens when lies are published or written in and later they are able to be constructed as facts.

Ghaznavi, the link you provided is asking for username and password which I think requires me to register which I have no intention of doing.

[M.Ghaznavi]

I just wanted to add that the Pakistani Air-to-Air victories (http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_324.shtml) on ACIG have been compiled mostly by Syed Shais Ali ( MiG_Master (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/member.php?u=3512) on KeyPublishing Discussion Forums).

His name is not mentioned on that page anymore. It says "By ACIG team" now.

[H Khan]

I just wanted to add that the Pakistani Air-to-Air victories (http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_324.shtml) on ACIG have been compiled mostly by Syed Shais Ali ( MiG_Master (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/member.php?u=3512) on KeyPublishing Discussion Forums).

His name is not mentioned on that page anymore. It says "By ACIG team" now.

How do you know if Shais compiled PAF chart?

[M.Ghaznavi]

How do you know if Shais compiled PAF chart?

I have seen his name mentioned on that page instead of "By ACIG Team". They replaced his name with "By ACIG Team" not too long ago. I am sure many others have seen it too. :)

[H Khan]

I have seen his name mentioned on that page instead of "By ACIG Team". They replaced his name with "By ACIG Team" not too long ago. I am sure many others have seen it too. :) .

Is there a way you can contact Shais get the jest of the story?

[M.Ghaznavi]

Is there a way you can contact Shais get the jest of the story?

Syed Shais Ali used to be quite active on ACIG, now he is not.

Same is the case with KeyPub. I think he is part of the so-called ACIG team .

[masood]

Is there a way you can contact Shais get the jest of the story?
Khan Sahib,

I sincerely hope that you meant to get the "gist" of the story, not the "jest". :) or did you mean to get the "rest" of the story?

I wonder if anyone asked the keypublishing editors as to where they got the information about the 4 PAF f-16's kills by IAF during Kargil even if it is erroneous. It wasn't in any indian media and not in print anywhere, so where did the author get that notion to begin with?

Dr. Masood Siddique

[H Khan]

:D It should be rest of the story rather than Jest :p

[Ali M]

I remember reading about IAF awarding a service meda to a Mig-29 pilot F/L Gaurav Chibber for attaining a radar lock on an F-16 during Kargil skirmish.Attaining a lock is by no means or standard could be considered a "kill".I dont why IAF decided to glorify this incident to that extent.

As fate would have it, F/L Gaurav Chibber met his end when the Mig-29 ,he was flying crahsed in Bilaspur distric tof Himachal Pardesh on August 6,1999,(Mohan,J. 2003)

Coincedently , on April 4,2002 Sqn. Ldr P K Bandela who was awarded Vayu Sena Medal for shooting down Pakistan Navy's Atlantique aircraft also died as result of injuries sustained during ejection from his Mig-21 bis.

Ali M

[yasser]

I remember reading about IAF awarding a service meda to a Mig-29 pilot F/L Gaurav Chibber for attaining a radar lock on an F-16 during Kargil skirmish.Attaining a lock is by no means or standard could be considered a "kill".I dont why IAF decided to glorify this incident to that extent.

As fate would have it, F/L Gaurav Chibber met his end when the Mig-29 ,he was flying crahsed in Bilaspur distric tof Himachal Pardesh on August 6,1999,(Mohan,J. 2003)

Coincedently , on April 4,2002 Sqn. Ldr P K Bandela who was awarded Vayu Sena Medal for shooting down Pakistan Navy's Atlantique aircraft also died as result of injuries sustained during ejection from his Mig-21 bis.

Ali M

If I was into consiracy theories, you know the three letters I would use to explain those crashes.... :)

[CDutta]

Too many conspiracy novels i suppose.

Chibber was given a medal after he was killed.. not before.. The award was announced i think a couple of weeks after his death.

[SSAAD]

I wrote to ACIG a long time ago (I think close to a year or so on this issue) after I got into it with a few Indian "friends" about this on Pakistanidefence.com.

The issue is simple. There should be no color coding OR a catagory for lock-ons. If you want to start tracking these down then get ready for 100s of entries from various airforces around the world....just alone PAF had more lock-ons than the actual shooting down of Soviet/Afghan aircraft during the Afghan war. This is not a measure of anything...the info on ACIG was based on contributers....I.e. just like Syed Shais Ali (or whosoever) posted the PAF info, someone (obviously of Indian origin) did the same for those Supposedly Kargil timeframe lock-ons. Regardless of what and when and if this ever occurred, its useless information....it only matters when you get the kill marked under your canopy..until then..forget about it :p

[Saleem Hatoum]

Look at this thread at acig....

http://acig.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=414&start=15


All is clear is the depth of hatred this Tom owner of acig has towards Pakistan and its people. If Harry and Jagan the pure hindus write it is the holy grail words coming out of an angles mouth but a Pakistani writes sometime that bhanchout immediately questions that Pakistan credibility and bullies him. Time is very near for this tom and harry all those who are wearing the same dhuty.

[M.Ghaznavi]

Look at this thread at acig....

http://acig.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=414&start=15


All is clear is the depth of hatred this Tom owner of acig has towards Pakistan and its people. If Harry and Jagan the pure hindus write it is the holy grail words coming out of an angles mouth but a Pakistani writes sometime that bhanchout immediately questions that Pakistan credibility and bullies him. Time is very near for this tom and harry all those who are wearing the same dhuty.

There are hardly any Pakistani posters on the ACIG forum.