Naval News - II

[Usman S.]

Old thread is here: http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1604

[azeemchoudhary]

Second Agosta-B to be commissioned by mid year

(Updated at 2020 PST)

KARACHI: The second Agosta 90B submarine (PNS-SAAD) presently undergoing test and trials at Pakistan Navy Dockyard would be formally commissioned in the naval fleet by middle of this year, Deputy General Manager (Quality Control) PN Dockyard Commodore S.M. Ali told a group of Islamabad-based defense correspondents at a briefing held at PN Dockyard here Tuesday.
from jang

[Abbas]

The article below states that only the 3rd Agosta 90B will be built with MESMA capability, which will not happen until end of 2005. This is really late. It will be 3 years from now, and even then only one submarine will have the advantages of MESMA; by that time the Bharatis will probably start receiving their nuclear subs, negating any advantage MESMA could have given PN.

Any idea when the other 2 90Bs will be retrofitted with MESMA?

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/index.html


NavBaby.

[H Khan]

This is correct Abbas! The third sub PNS Hamza will be the first submarine to be fitted with AIP system and this is as per the original contract. In fact, PNS Hamza would be the very sub in the world to be fitted with AIP system. Yes, later on the other two subs will have AIP installed and I was told it would take about four to six months to install the system.

[H Khan]

By Asim Yasin

KARACHI: Deputy Chief of Naval Staff (Operations) Rear Admiral Iftikhar Rao on Tuesday said the Pakistani and the US navies would hold joint exercises in the Arabian Sea sometime next month.

Talking to Islamabad-based defence reporters after a lecture on "Maritime Security" at the PN Tactical Naval School here, he said that both the navies had undertaken joint exercises a few months ago. "These exercises would be repeated again shortly," he said. The dates and other modalities of the exercise were being worked out, he added.

Briefing newsmen at the Pakistan Navy Dockyard Commander Logistic Rear Admiral Farooq Rasheed said that the Pakistan Navy would commission its second Agosta 90-B submarine named 'Saad' by March 23. "Only three pressure-hull sections (of 'Saad' are built in France, while the rest of the fabrication and complete outfitting has been done here," he added.

The contract for the construction of three Agosta 90B submarines, costing $1.2 billion ($40 million for each Submarine), was signed with the DCN of France in September 1994. The first submarine 'Khalid' was built in France and commissioned in the Pakistan Navy in December 1999. The original cost of the budget will exceed because of delays in the project.

One of the officials, while briefing newsmen at the Pakistan Navy Dockyard, said the project suffered unnecessary delay because of terrorist attack on French experts, working on the project, in Karachi last year. However, he added that the French teams had started visiting Pakistan recently and further delays would be avoided.

The official said the third submarine 'Hamza' is being built in Pakistan. Its forward and Aft conical sections and the Mesma air independent propulsion system will be made in France. "The third Agosta 90B submarine will be commissioned by the end of 2005," he added.

During the visit of journalist to the Pakistan Navy Dockyard and Agosta 90B submarine 'Saad', the naval officials said that the total length of the submarine was about 67.57m (76m Mesma), its maximum operating depth is 320m, with 35 years life expectancy. Its combat system is Subtics and it would carry SM-39 Exocet missile and wire-guided torpedo. The submarine has also a special feature of Mesma AIP (air independent propulsion) system.

The AIP system will give the SM-3 Agosta 90B (Hamza) an extra breath for remaining submerged for two weeks, against existing Khalid and Saad, which need to surface after 40 hours. The submarine has the capability of remaining engaged in operation for 60 days. It usually houses 50-60 members crew. The sub has four torpedo tubes and can hold a combination of 14 torpedoes or missiles.

Commander Saad Captain Iftikhar Riaz Qureshi told newsmen that currently sea acceptance trials were going on in which harbour test of the submarine were completed on January 13. Now only deep-sea trial remained which would be completed by March. "After these trials the submarine would be commissioned," he added.

At anther briefing to the visiting newsmen, the naval official said the most important feature of the contract for Agosta 90B is the transfer of technology. A total of around 300 personnel, mostly civilians have been trained in France and Pakistan in this regard.

The Navy officials said the contract provides for the provision of complete transfer of French technical know-how for the construction of submarines.

The DCN will also provide performance guarantees on all the three submarines. Therefore, throughout the construction period of submarine Saad and Hamza, the DCN France was overseeing all the works through its technical assistance team, headed by a principal technical adviser.

APP adds: Referring to the future plans of the dockyard, Commodore SM Ali said it will expand its capabilities of maintaining, rebuilding and constructing naval vessels in addition to increasing level of independence in rebuilding submarines, ships, missile boats, gunboats, auxiliary vessels and floating docks.

Asked if the project was going ahead well within the budgetary allocations, he said: "We are still in budget" but added that it might exceed later. The PN Dockyard has the capability to start construction of another two Agosta submarines. However, a green signal from the government with allocation of necessary funds in this regard is awaited.

It was confided to newsmen that there were a number of countries in the Far East, South-East Asia and the Persian Gulf, who had evinced interest in Agosta, adding that they had initially asked Pakistan to construct these submarines for them. But for material and other things, "we will have to approach the DCN," the officials added.

[H Khan]

If my memory serves me correctly, the present Agosta subs have a submerged capacity of 140 hours not 40. When fitted with AIP it could reach close to 500 hours.

[Abbas]

Originally posted by H Khan
This is correct Abbas! The third sub PNS Hamza will be the first submarine to be fitted with AIP system and this is as per the original contract. In fact, PNS Hamza would be the very sub in the world to be fitted with AIP system. Yes, later on the other two subs will have AIP installed and I was told it would take about four to six months to install the system.

H.Khan thanks for the info. This should be revealing to those in Pakistan who keep calling for defence cuts - even with a billion dollar investment PN cannot begin to close the gap between itself and Bharati navy. If we were to make any cuts, we might as well not have a navy, and let the Bharatis sail right into Karachi harbor or anywhere else on our shores.

NavBaby.

[MohammedA]

PakObservor.net

PN can match, thwart enemy designs

Aroosa Alam

KARACHI—Though faced with multi-dimensional territorial, economic and security challenges, Pakistan Navy is moving well towards achieving its objective to create a balanced fleet of Air, Surface, Sub-surface and land based forces in the coming future. Equipped already with lethal state-of-the-art Agosta 90-b submarines that are armed with Harpoon and SM-39 Exocet missiles, PN has already received Government approval to acquire direly needed frigates from China. Hand in hand with these welcome developments for the otherwise and traditionally ignored PN, the leaders of the force are also happy to note that scientists and engineers are working to develop an indigenous missile system for the service.

They also draw great strength from the fact that if it gets a political nod along with sufficient funds, the experts at the PN Dockyard can attempt to make modifications in the design of the Agosta 90-b subs to convert them into nuclear powered subs as under the Transfer of Technology contract with French DCNI, PN plans to build three more subs after the completion of three subs contract.

A day-long visit to PN Dockyard at the Submarine Construction Complex along with a breathtaking dive into the 2nd Agosta-90-b fondly named S/M SAAD on Tuesday provided a bird’s-eye view of the mammoth work being carried out by a dedicated team of workers, officers, technicians and leaders to turn into a reality the tall slogan of “Submarine Construction, a quantum leap towards self-reliance”.

A group of senior defence correspondents from across the country took great pride in visiting the Submarine Construction Complex to witness the construction of the 3rd Agosta 90-b which will be built 100 % by Pakistani experts. The visit also provided a memorable opportunity to mediamen to slip down into the second Agosta 90-b which is now ready to get into the most crucial and “dangerous” phase of water trials after which SAAD will be commissioned into service hopefully on the 23rd of March this year.

Refusing to draw a comparison with Indian Navy, Deputy Chief of Naval Staff (Operations) Rear Admiral Iftikhar Ahmed Rao says that if need arises Pakistan Navy can do the economic blockade of India by choking sealines of communications that go from Gulf to India. “PN is in a position to exploit enemy’s weaknesses and vulnerabilities and can take war to the enemy and do a quid pro quo”, said the Rear Admiral pointing out that 63% of oil by India is imported from Gulf and port of Kandla, which falls in close proximity of Pakistan, handled maximum POL items during year 2000-2001.

This makes India very vulnerable if it comes to choking of oil supplies. He said Indian imports from Middle East in year 2000 stood at 203 trillion rupees and exports were 97 trillion rupees. “It is just a myth that India can do Pakistan’s economic blockade. On the contrary Indian SLOCs are vulnerable and within our reach. We must be prepared to take advantage of it”, he said.

DCNS (O) however admitted that Indian Navy has been progressively developing over the last three decades turning into the largest regional and the 5th largest naval force of the world. It operates in all dimensions of naval warfare. The severity of these threats is likely to increase.

To combat these ever growing threats from enemey, he said, we need to develop maritime awareness, non-military elements, merchant ships, port developments exploitation of EEZ and Continental Shelf. He said PN has responded in a great manner to match the threat but in view of national economic constraints, PN’s planning and induction strategy has been structured on three-tier policy of upgradation of existing holdings, induction of technologically responsive, yet cost effective platforms and weapons systems along with a prudent approach of vital infrastructural expansion. He announced that the government has agreed to provide funds for surface ships which will be made available by China. He, however, admitted that it is not technically feasible to acquire Chinese submarine technology.

“French technology is far superior and satisfactory”, he noted.

“Pakistan is proud to be one of the 11 nations that are capable of building state-of-the-art conventional submarines like Agosta 90-b” told Admiral Farooq Rashid, Commander Logistics in a briefing over the submarine construction programme of PN Dockyard. He said the main feature of the Agosta-90-b submarines is the MESMA Air Independent Propulsion System (AIP) which gives the sub a long submerged time thus making it a lethal and silent creeper against enemy targets. These subs have 35 years life time with maximum operating depth of 320 meters. These are equipped with SUBTICS combat system and weapons include SM-39 Exocet missiles, and Wire guided torpedo. At one time the subs can carry 16 weapons of mixed breed of torpedos and missiles. PN is still conducting negotiations for the procurement of tarpedos for the three new Agostas but the two subs have been equipped with Pakistani torpedos.

To a question, Admiral Farooq said that Agosta submarine project has been well contained into allocated 1.2 billion dollar budget. Some delays took place due to DCNI who has compensated PN on this account. Refusing to entertain reports that Malaysia and Pakistan are close to strike a deal for the construction of Agosta 90-b, the Admiral said there is no bar from French DCNI for such contract. Under the agreement of ToT, Pakistan can export these subs to other countries.

To a question, he said that AIP system will also be integrated into the first two Agosta 90-bs once they will undergo their first retrofit programmes after five years. He admitted that after the sad killing of French Technicians by the terrorists, no DCNI expert is in Pakistan.

But they are assisting us throughout by constant communication links. He saw no major problem in the project due to the departure of French team and hoped that the third submarine which is being built will be ready for water trials in year 2005 as per schedule.

Talking about the future plans, he said we will expand our capabilities of maintenance, rebuild and construct naval vessels and increase the level of independence in rebuild and construction of submarines, ships, missile boats, gunboats, auxiliary vessels, floating docks, seek joint eventures with friendly countries and make our work cost effective.

[uazim]

Second suspect in Sheraton suicide bombing held in Karachi
(Updated at 1550 PST) By Afzal Nadeem

KARACHI: CID police Karachi on Wednesday arrested another suspect accused of plotting a suicide car bomb attack that killed 14 people including 11 French experts on last May 8.



Police said accused Rizwan, arrested from Liaquatabad, would be produced in an Anti-Terrorism Court tomorrow. The accused Mohammad Rizwan alias Bashir has confessed to a role in the Sheraton bombing, police said. Rizwan purchased the vehicle used in the bombing from Al-Majeed Motors in Ancholi and drove it to Defence View where he along with his accomplices loaded it with ammunition, police said.


Rizwan later drove the car toward Sheraton but but got out of it before the target and handed it over to Rashid who hit the car with French experts bus at Sheraton Hotel.


The police had earlier arrested a suspect Asif Zaheer, who is alleged to be belonging to Harkat Jihad-ul Islami. Three more suspects involved in this attack have gone under ground, police said.

[SyedA]

PN changed from defensive into offensive: Karimullah

Says not to rely on borrowed strength

Dismisses economic blockade by India

Aroosa Alam

ONBOARD PNS NASR (Arabian Sea)—Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Shahid Karimullah says that high value deterrence capabilities demonstrated by Pakistan Navy during the recent military stand-off between Pakistan and India has changed PN role from being defensive into offensive and all future maritime policies and plans would revolve around the new role of the service.

Talking to senior defence journalists on board PN NASR, the Naval Chief said that induction of Agosta 90-b submarines, future acquisition of F-22-P frigates from China, fleet of 6 Type 21 Destroyers, missile boats and air fleet of Pakistan Navy coupled with Pakistan’s excellent geo-strategic position has changed the nature of the force into a formidable offensive force. “Pakistan Navy plans to acquire CASA 295 surveillance and patrol aircraft from Spain and also intends to equip Chinese surface ships with state-of-the-art sonars, communications and weapon systems to further enhance the offensive capabilities of the force which is now capable of taking the war on the enemy’s territory”, said Admiral Shahid Karimullah.

The Naval Chief also cautioned the nation not to rely on borrowed strength and said Pakistan will always have to fight its war alone and on its own.

“No ally, no Ummah will come to your rescue when the chips are down, it will be your own strength, military might and conviction that will win the war for you”, said the candid Naval Chief without mincing any words. “Is it not ironic that even after the lifting of sanctions against Pakistan, country’s three Armed Forces are still striving for much needed spares and equipments?” he asked adding that even the French who have been

reliable partners have dragged their feet on some of the Navy’s requirements.

He said moral of the story is that Pakistan will have to stop looking towards West and lay more empahsis on its friends in East. “It is for this that Pakistan Navy has negotiated for Chinese Frigates which will have both defensive and offensive capabilities”, he said adding that the Government has given a nod and the project will be executed after the funds are released.

To a question he said that during the recent escalation no ally or the Muslim country actually played a big role to defuse the tension. No help came other than provision of oil by Saudi Arabia and UAE. He said on the contrary Pakistan had to pay 600 million rupees as war surcharge to the merchant ships as risk guarantees when they carried our cargo during war on Afghanistan. On the other hand Indians had to pay very little as they had the capability to provide convey escort to the incoming ships. In fact, for many days after attacks on WTC, Pakistan Navy was on complete alert to face an attack by US till the President of Pakistan decided to side with international coalition against war on Afghanistan.

To a question the Naval Chief very strongly dismissed the myth of economic blockade by India saying that Pakistan Navy is in a position to give a tit for tat response by blocking the SLOCs of India. And by the way we also have the capability to engage India into its own waters . Gone are the days when Indian Navy could browbeat Pakistan Navy on this account. It was the fear of Pakistan’s marine strength that Indian Navy could not dare to come near to Pakistani waters during the recent escalation.

To another question, he said that Gwadar Port is a source of concern to the West as they apprehend that Pakistan is seeking control of Arabian Gulf through this port. But Gwadar Port is being built for the economic prosperity. Urmara Port will enhace and stretch marine operations of Pakistan Navy.

The Naval Chief admitted that the Government has taken a number of major decisions to safeguard country’s marine interests and Pakistan Navy is now equipped with top of the line equipments and platforms.

Later giving a comprehensive briefing on “Situation and activities at sea front during Indo-Pak stand-off, DCNS Operations, Rear Admiral Iftikar Ahmed Rao said that although India tried to exploit the world-wide anti-terrorist sentimnts after 9/11, Pakistan Navy, along with other forces has emerged out of stand-off with dignity and honour despite heavy odds.

He said in the face of Indian Navy’s aggressive moves and deployment, Pakistan Navy acted swiftly, assumed and maintined a high degree of readiness, in line with the overall defensive posture adopted by Pakistan Army and Air Force.

He disclosed that during the stand-off, some 10 Indian Navy ships from Western command were forward deployed in Okha area. Some of the IN’s Maritime Commandos with Seaking Helicopters remained forward deployed at Indian Sikki post near Sir Creek area. Their aircraft carrier remained non-operational for some time then they managed to put it to sea. He said Indian submarines and ships remained lurking in holding areas but did not come closer. The deployment of significant number of units around Kandla and their employment for defensive tasks point to the vulnerability of the Kandla Port vis-a-vis the reach and offensive capability of PN platforms. He said the entire stand-off was manifestation of PN’s analysis which noted (a) Examination and escorting of merchant vessels by Indian Navy and Coast Gurads units in and out of Ports of Kandla, Mundra, and Mandvi, (b) Dispersal of IN units in all Indian harbours to dilute the effects of a possible strike on them, (c) continuous day and night patrolling around Bombay Highway by IN and Coast Gurads, (d) regular defensive patrolling in Gulf of Kutch and Creeks area by the Indian CG hovercraft with marine commandos, and (e) deployment of Indian air defence at important installations.

In response to a question he said Pakistan Navy had already deployed selective offensive units, overtly and covertly, at suitable locations from where we could generate the required response. Thus a credible level of naval deterrence was ensured throughout. Consequently, Pakistani shipping transiting anywhere in the Indian Ocean throughout the crisis, remained safe and unhindered. He said despite being severely hit by the military sanctions and economic crunch, Pakistan Navy, was able to field more than 80% of platforms for operatiolns. These platforms were prepared for their designed operations at peak efficiency, with lots of extra efforts, hard work and indigenous engineering improvisations by PN. This kept us going through the longest and unprecedented stand-off with India.

[uazim]

We'll have to fight on our own: CNS

By Mayed Ali & Asim Yasin

KARACHI: Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Shahid Saeedullah has said that Pakistan will have to fight its own battle in any eventuality as no-one would come to its rescue in the event of a war.

Briefing newsmen aboard the PNS Nasr here on Wednesday, he said no country or platform came forward to extend any kind of support to Pakistan during its standoff with India last year.`What coalition partners? There is no coalition partner. During this entire standoff, did you hear anybody supporting us? Any Muslim country supporting us! We are alone. There should be no doubt in anybody's mind that your fight is your fight, and nobody will support you. He, however, said that Pakistan got some support from the UAE and Saudi Arabia in the shape of oil. The Pakistan Navy came out of the recent standoff with India successfully, however, was analysing the strong points and weaknesses of the sea force. ``We will build upon our strong points, and try to overcome the weaknesses. The DCNS maintained the Pakistan Navy had already put the proposals before the government for filling the deficiencies. He said the government had approved initiation of dialogue with China for the acquisition of F-22 Chinese Frigates. If the government approved the funds for the same project, Pakistan would acquire the first frigate built in China, while the rest three would be built in Pakistan under the Transfer of Technology (TOT) agreement. The CNS and the DCNS (Operations) explained why Pakistan was banking more and more on the Chinese technology in different warfare equipment. They were of the view that the unpredictable attitude of the West, especially in the backdrop of the sanctions imposed on Pakistan after the nuclear tests, it was imperative for Pakistan to find some dependable market.`We should start looking towards east now'. The CNS said even France got problematic at times. ``Although it has been announced that sanctions have been removed. Nothing has been removed as far as the military equipment is concerned. Believe me. In spite of our support to the west in the war against terrorism, nothing has come out of it". He said this was the reason Pakistan had started looking towards the east. ``If they can squeeze us now, they will continue squeezing us in future". Admitting the Chinese technology did not match the western one, he said if China could create a deterrence on Americans, Pakistan could also create deterrence with these ships.

He said Gwadar port would play a vital role in the economic activity of Pakistan. "The western countries have reservation on Gwadar port with a view that it will increase Pakistan Navy influence in Arabian Sea but we are most interested in its commercial aspect", he added. In reply to a question, he said India would not succeed in stopping the supply of oil to Pakistan as Navy knew how to deal with them. In reply to another question regarding the Omara naval base, he said that it wouldl be completed by next year and would be handed over to the Pakistan navy. He said after 9/11 and standoff with India, Pakistan had paid above $600 million as war surcharge. Earlier, Rear Admiral Ifthikar Ahmed, the Deputy Chief of Naval Staff Operations, Iftikhar Ahmed Rao told newsmen in a briefing that during the standoff, India tried to use its Navy as a tool to manifest its coercive diplomacy and resorted to forward posturing and most of their major units were shifted from Easter Naval Command to the Western Naval command while increasing their naval activities in the North Arabian sea. "We monitored their activities closely and adjusted our deployments and plans accordingly",he added.

He said some 10 Indian Navy ships from western command were forward deployed in Okha area and some of the India Maritime Commandos (MARCOs), with seaking helicopters to carry them, remained forward deployed at Indian sikki post, near the Sir creek area. "Their Air Craft carrier remained non-operational for some time they managed to put it to the sea, probably to avoid criticism at home", he added. He said few of Indian submarines also remained lurking in holding areas of subsequent deployment while the deployment of significant number of units around Kandla and their employment for defensive task points to the vulnerability of the Kandla port. "It was reach and offensive capabilities of the Pakistan Navy platforms", he added. He said the Pakistan Navy response and preparedness to meet this challenging situation, in terms of both the men and material was very encouraging. "Our officers and sailors put in dedicated hardwork and were eager to take on the Indian Naval forces,", he added.

He said the Pakistan Navy managed to safeguard the sea frontiers of the country and its maritime interests to the utmost satisfaction of the nation despite being much smaller in size, during the prolonged standoff. During the visit of the PNS NASR, the Pakistan navy conducted six different exercises in which 5 ships of the Pakistan Navy PNS Tariq, PNS Babur, PNS TIPPU Sultan, PNS Khaiber and Shahjahan. In the first exercise, the helicopter undertakes search and rescue and ferry missions. In the second exercise, the Pakistan Navy Atlantic aircraft performed the exercise to obtain information and data on enemy units at sea and passed to friendly units like PN Missiles Boats, destroyers, Seaking helicopters and also PAF Mirages. The third exercise CASEX, which means combined anti-submarine exercise and this exercise was conducted to familiarise personnel in recognising sub-marine, maneuvering on the surface and dived, exposing her masts and equipment. The submarine PNS/M GHAZI, carried out the tasks of recognition.

The fourth serial comprises a single unit, which is Atlantic aircraft fired a depth charge from beneath the belly of the Air Craft. In fifth exercise, this serial consists of three ships in which PNS NASR being in the center and acts as supply ship and the other two ships were right and left of her.

The purpose of this exercise was to enable the Pakistan navy ships to attain proficiency and competence in carrying out sensitive and taxing missions in the open sea frontiers without hindrance as far as fuel and rations are concerned. In the sixth exercise, five ships of PN Type 21 destroyers carried out bombardment on an island called Churrna. The firing guns fired 4.5 main armament of these ships and these guns have an effective range of 2200 yards.

http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/index.html

[SyedA]

'Pakistan Navy thrust moves from defensive to offensive'
ON BOARD PNS NASR (January 16 2003) : Chief of the Naval Staff (CNS) Admiral Shahid Karimullah said on Wednesday the overall thrust of Pakistan Navy has been shifted from defensive to offensive nature of operations to make it a more potent force and give a quid-pro-quo response to the adversary.

The induction of new surface ships including F-22P frigates is part of this policy, Admiral Shahid Karimullah said while briefing the newsmen who were taken to witness exercises, especially conducted by the warships of Pakistan Navy, on board PN ship in the deep sea waters of the country.

Admiral Karimullah said induction of F-22P frigates in near future would cost lesser adding that after modernising surface ships fleet, the Navy would buy maritime surveillance aircraft.

Pakistan Navy is in a position to give tit-for-tat response to the enemy and in case of any war it is fully capable to fight it in enemy's territorial waters, CNS Admiral Karimullah said.

He said since there had not been any support from other countries in terms of supply of military hardware and consumables, Pakistan Navy was looking forward to attain maximum self-reliance side-by-side going for such hardware which was available on the basis that their consumables and spares are available on an uninterrupted bases.

That is why PN was looking at purchase of F-22P, he added.

"I know it for sure that we will have no support from any country in future and we have to fight alone," he remarked.

There is an urgent need of buying surface ships and the government's decision to buy F-22P would go a long way in strengthening the country's maritime interest, he said and maintained that F-22Ps would cost lesser but would surely he a great deterrent.

He said if the Chinese ships joined Pakistan Navy fleet, it would prove to be a good addition in naval inventory of ships.

About Agosta 90B submarines, the Chief of Naval Staff said these submarines are a reasonably good threat to India, "We have to continue building up all naval assets to make Navy a more potent force".

The CNS said four frigates would initially join the fleet adding that if one ship was constructed in China, the rest three will be built in Pakistan by PN engineers and experts.

The government had however not yet approved the funding to buy the ships but it has given the green signal to workout the secondary requirements.

"I will come out with the news about purchasing F-22Ps as soon as the government gives us a go-ahead with approval of necessary funds".

Answering a question, he said it is better to have a simple platform than an state-of-the-art one, which might not be available to us because of sanctions.

Asked if Pakistan Navy submarines were nuclear capable to match the Indian capabilities in this field, he said "When India tested nuclear device, we responded in the same coin and we will continue to upkeep the same in future as well."

He informed that two missile boats are being constructed here by a Thai company.

Replying to a question, Commander Pakistan Fleet Rear Admiral M A Tahir said Pakistan Navy might buy Spanish Cassa-295, which was a good surveillance aircraft.

"We have looked into 235 and 295 series of Cassa series aircraft but the former meets our requirements," he said and added China was also in the process of developing its maritime surveillance aircraft and this is one of the options under consideration.

"Cassa-295 is a very good aircraft in terms of endurance and other facilities, he added.

He said there was a good early warning system, installed in all Pakistan Navy warships and there was nothing to worry in this regard.

Answering another question, Karimullah confirmed that India, which had moved its naval assets from Eastern Naval Command (ENC) to Western Naval Command (WNC) during recent military stand off, had moved its assets back to WNC and doing exercises in peacetime locations.

He recalled that during this stand off, the Navy safeguarded sea frontiers and maritime interests to utmost satisfaction of the people.

Indians however failed to achieve the target because they could not coerce Pakistan.

Chief of the Naval Staff Shahid Karimullah commending the services of his men and officers said, "Their morale and high professional skill is a real pride for the whole nation. They will come up to expectations of the nations in every hour of trial."

Despite PN being a small force, it has proved to be a potent force in the recent stand off, he said adding the number never matters but it is the spirit and morale of the force, which really matters.

The morale of men and officers has been high throughout, that proved a real deterrence to the enemy, he said.

Answering a question, the Chief of Naval Staff said, the Ormara Naval Base is in operation and it was extensively used by PN during the stand off.

However, he said due to non-availability of industrial infrastructure PN has yet to shift its major assets to the newly built base.

He said women had been inducted in the Education and Law sections of the PN while they have plans in-hand to induct them in the communication sectors as well.

Earlier, Deputy Chief of Naval Staff (Operations) Rear Admiral Iftikhar Rao at a briefing to reporters said despite difficulties imposed due to prevalent international environment and weapon and system constraints, the Navy would come up to the nation's expectations and would defend sea frontiers of Pakistan whenever the need so arises.

"We foresee that Pakistan may have to go through such prolonged stand off in future as well," he said adding that the sea frontage of the country is very likely to be an important region for activities by various players for a variety of interests.

"PN shall continue to endeavour that anybody's interests must not overtake Pakistan's interests whether in peacetime or in war," he added.

"With the optimisation of our available resources, we shall remain committed to fulfil this national requirement. We understand that it is neither possible nor viable for PN to try to match the Indian or any other navy, platform to platform and enter into an arms race, which is not our national policy anyway," Rao said.

He said the Navy rather intends to achieve and maintain selective but credible deterrence capability, which can deter any aggressor, avert wars and defend the country honourably if a war is forced on us.

"PN assures the nation that by the Grace of Allah, Pakistan Navy possesses adequate capability to accomplish all this," he said.

He said the recent stand off at sea afforded PN an opportunity to critically analyse its strengths and weaknesses.

It also enabled us to validate our operational concepts whose validation had become necessary in the changed global and regional politico-military environment.

"Notwithstanding the aforesaid advantages, we also critically analysed our weak areas and will try our best to redress the same, overcome our short comings and beef up our defences," he added.-APP

[Abbas]

16 January 2003 Thursday 12 Ziqa'ad 1423

Sanctions are still hitting Pakistan


By Our Reporter

KARACHI, Jan 15: Despite Pakistan's policy in the post-Sept 11 period, acquisition of technology and weapons system for the defence forces still remain affected by the sanctions and Islamabad will have to be on its own to defend itself.

This was stated by the Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Shahid Karimullah, at a briefing to newsmen on board the supply ship, PNS Nasr, on Wednesday in which Pakistan Navy Fleet Commander, Rear Admiral Afzal Tahir and other senior officers also participated.

"As far as the military is concerned, the squeeze on us continues, despite perception to the contrary with regard to sanctions," said the CONS, spelling out various alternatives Pakistan Navy was examining in terms of weapons acquisition and strategy to counter Indian "forward posturing".

He said the sanctions had compelled Pakistan to look for its needs eastward.

In the backdrop of the recent standoff with India, he said Pakistan Navy had also switched over to offensive posturing and its role was not confined merely to securing the economic lifeline of the country.

He believed that "such prolonged standoffs cannot be ruled out" in the context of India, though he dispelled the perception that during recent tense period the Indian Navy had entered into Pakistan territory.

"They had moved units from their eastern command also but they never came close or entered into our territory," said the naval chief, adding that Pakistan avoided escalation.

"Though Pakistan is part of the international coalition, in the given circumstances Pakistan will have to fight its own war and depend on its own resources for defending itself," he hinted.

"During the standoff no one talked about us. Only support from Saudi Arabia and the UAE was shown in terms of oil," he said.

With regard to weapons acquisition programme, he said the government had given approval for the procurement of four frigates F 22P from China, one or two would be built in China and the rest in Pakistan.

Replying to a question about the deficiency in surveillance aircraft, the naval chief said at the moment Pakistan was examining the option of Spanish Cassa 295 aircraft as it met the requirement of the navy. He said the Chinese were also in the process of developing their own version. Pakistan, he said, would evaluate all options.

Replying to another question, he said in the field of metallurgy China was as good as the West in some areas. Pakistan, he added, was also exploring the Ukraine option and, if possible, the western sources.

He told a questioner that by the end of 2003 Jinnah Naval Base at Ormara would be further upgraded and would enhance the PN capabilities. In fact, he said, during the standoff with India, Ormara was extensively used.

Karimullah refused to reply to questions whether Pakistan Navy was also planning to acquire nuclear capability.

He confirmed that next month Pakistan-United States and Pakistan-Saudi Arabian exercises would be held but added that it was not yet clear what would be the format of the joint exercise with the US. The exercise with Saudi Navy was a regular feature which was earlier suspended owing to standoff with India.

IFTEKHAR RAO: The Deputy Chief of Naval Staff (operations), Iftekhar Rao, dealing with the situation during the standoff with India, said New Delhi tried to exploit the worldwide anti-terrorist sentiment after the tragic Sept 11 incidents. Using the terrorist attack on Indian parliament on Dec 13, 2001, as a pretext, it staged heightened tension along Pakistan's borders by massing troops, A/C and maritime forces. In the face of Indian Navy's aggressive moves and deployment, Pakistan Navy acted swiftly, assumed and maintained a high degree of readiness, in line with the overall defensive posture adopted by Pakistan Army and Air Force.

During the standoff, he said, India tried to use its navy as a tool to manifest its coercive diplomacy. Some 10 Indian Navy ships from western command were forward deployed in Okha area. Some of the IN's Maritime Commandos (MARCOs), with Seeking Helicopters to carry them, remained forward deployed at Indian Sikki post, near the Sir Creeks area. Their A/C carrier remained non-operational for some time, then they managed to put it to sea, probably to avoid criticism at home. All along, it remained far away and well clear of our EEZ and area of interest barring the time, when they took it to Gulf for power projection visit. Few of their submarines also remained lurking in holding areas for subsequent deployment, if required, he said.

The deployment of significant number of units around Kandla and their employment for defensive tasks points to the vulnerability of the Kandla Port viz-a-viz the reach and offensive capability of PN platforms.

He said the PN had already deployed selective offensive units, overtly and covertly, at suitable locations from where we could generate the required response, if and when required. Thus, a credible level of naval deterrence was ensured throughout. Consequently, Pakistan shipping transiting anywhere in the Indian Ocean, throughout the crises, remained safe and unhindered.

On another occasion, in a stage-managed incident, he said, the IN units attempted to deploy closer to Pakistan coast in the garb of providing assistance to a disabled Indian fishing boat, which was adrift in position about 33 nautical miles south of Gwadar. "There exists a strong possibility that this boat was on intelligence gathering mission near our waters," he said. Initially, the PN tasked suitable MSA unit to investigate this boat. Meanwhile, a PN submarine picked up few IN warships and helicopters southeast of Ormara. These Indian ships moved further near Gwadar, in a position close to the location of the fishing boat.

An appropriate response was generated by deployment of Harpoon Missile-fitted Pakistan naval ships and aircraft in the area, in order to respond, if required. This deterred the IN ships to get out of our area quickly, said Rear Admiral Rao. However, by this time, the coalition ships present in this area, realising the possible dangerous situation, tasked a coalition ship to tow the boat to the nearest Indian port.

In essence, IN attempted to resort to coercive strategy aiming to tire PN out, in the pre-hostility phase and create imbalance in "our system of forces".

The IN activities were generally in sync with Indian political objective, which was to coerce Pakistan.

On the material side, despite having been severely hit by the military sanctions and the economic crunch, PN was able to field more than 80 per cent of its platforms for operations, he said. The indigenous innovations, improvisations and development of various elements as force multipliers were the hallmarks of "our preparedness", he added.

Throughout the day, Pakistan Navy's surface ships, submarines and aircraft, including PAF Mirages, conducted various exercises which were witnessed by the mediamen from across the country and the National Defence College teams.

© The DAWN Group of Newspapers, 2003

[Abbas]

http://www.dawn.com/2003/01/16/top3.htm

In today's Pakistani newspapers senior military officials at different forums have been quoted as stressing that in case of war, Pakistan will be on its own and there should not be any expectation of material help from anyone.

While I never doubted that Pakistan will have to face all its trials on its own, I am curious why all of a sudden there is a coordinated effort on part of the military to unambiguously stress this reality. Is it just to dampen any expectation of Pakistani support to Iraq in case of war, or is there something else going on which the general public is unaware of? If anyone can shed light on this, please do so.

NavBaby.

[Abbas]

Although this article makes the allegation, it provides only circumstantial evidence. Nevertheless, this is the first article I have seen in an international periodical that explicitely cites Indian involvement in terrorists acts occuring in Pakistan. This work needs to be built upon.

NavBaby.
==================================================
Defense & Foreign Affairs Strategic Policy
Copyright (c) 2002 ProQuest Information and Learning; All Rights Reserved.
Copyright International Media Corporation Ltd. Apr/May 2002
Monday, April 1, 2002
Volume 30, Issue 4/5

India linked to killings to delay Pakistan SSK launch

Exclusive. Defense and Foreign Affairs sources reported at the end of May 2002 that there was almost certainly a link between the Indian Government and the alleged terrorist assassination of 11 French marine engineers (and the wounding of 12 others) in Karachi on May 8, 2002, and that the killings were meant to slow up operational service for the Pakistan Navy's (PN) second (of three) Agosta 90B submarine, the Saad.

This delay substantially limits the PN's submarine capability against the Indian Navy (IN) at an extremely critical time. The PN's submarine capabilities have always been of considerable concern to India. India currently holds numerical superiority over Pakistan in submarines (Pakistan has only seven oceangoing submarines versus 14 viable oceangoing submarines for the IN, plus one nuclear attack submarine on lease, and possibly not combat-ready); however, Pakistan's Agosta 90Bs are regarded as extremely sophisticated and possibly better than the IN's 10 Russian-built Sindhugosh-class (Kilo Project 877-class) vessels. Numerical superiority or not, the Pakistan submarine capability to damage Indian maritime interests remains great, and would have been greater now but for the delay in the second Agosta 90B.

Sources in Pakistan, France and India have said that this was not a coincidence. The attack, ostensibly by Islamist terrorists angry with the Musharraf Government in Pakistan, was different from any other terrorist attacks in the region in recent times. Although it was possible that an Islamist militant organization carried out the actual attack, it was now almost certain -- based on an accumulation of evidence - that the target selection and direction, and possibly funding for the attack, was the responsibility of the Indian Government. However, in a bid to minimize delay on completing the vessel, the French Government was reported on June 1, 2002, to be ready to approve the sending of engineers to Pakistan to resume work on the Agosta 90B submarine following the terrorist killing of 11 French marine engineers in Karachi on May 8, 2002. Work on the submarine was expected to resume "very soon". Some 40 French employees of the Direction de la Construction Navale (DCN), the shipbuilding arm of the French Defense Ministry, working under contract to the Pakistani Navy, had all been called back to the DCN shipyard at Cherbourg.

The murders struck a significant blow to Pakistan naval preparedness. The second Agosta 90B SSK was due to be ready for launching this Summer, and Pakistan Navy officials still hope that it would be ready by the end of Summer. The Indian Government has been particularly anxious to curb Pakistan Navy preparedness for conflict with India. It was possible that the terrorist strike could have delayed work on the vessel even more than it did. The first Agosta-90B class unit produced for Pakistan, the Khalid, was built entirely by DCN at the Cherbourg Naval Dockyard. The prefabricated sections for the second unit were produced in France by DCN, but were shipped to Pakistan for assembly and outfitting at Karachi Naval Shipyard. The third unit, the Hamza, is being fabricated at Karachi Naval Shipyard in Pakistan. The Khalid was laid down on July 15, 1995, was launched on August 13, 1998, and entered service on September 13, 1999. The second unit was considered to have had its
keel laid in June 1998. The launch date for the second unit had been anticipated for sometime during 2001, with an in-service date of February 2002. This was delayed by a variety of factors, the last being the assassination of the 11 French engineers. The hull sections for the second unit were shipped on April 29,1998. The third unit of this class was laid down on January 3, 1997, with an in-service date of 2006.

A US official said just after the incident that while the bombing was "not necessarily" the work of the terrorist group al-Qaida, Pakistani radical groups typically had not used bus bombings as a method of attack. The Indian Government has long secretly backed Sindhi secessionist movements, apparently including, for example, the World Sindhi movement in Washington DC, and it was also known that Indian intelligence organizations but particularly the Research & Analysis Wing (RAW) - had financed terrorist acts in Karachi, the capital of Sindh Province, in the past.

The 1994 contract between Pakistan and France on submarine construction, worth $730-million, under which three Agosta 90B submarines were to be built, was placed "under review" as a result of the terrorist attack, and at the instigation of a number of French political authorities, among them Bernard Cazeneuve, the mayor of Cherbourg, and a high-level socialist parliamentarian and watchdog over the French defense sector, who had asked that the contract be unilaterally terminated or renegotiated. The attack, then, played directly into the hands of India. French diplomatic sources were quoted in Pakistan as saying, however, that although officially the contract was still "under review", DCN was required to proceed with the construction of the second and third Agosta 90B, a force majeure clause of making the completion of the vessels mandatory. As well, according to the French sources, the Saad, also according to the contract, must be ready for sea trials scheduled for September 2002, which meant that the delays caused by the terrorist attack must be made up for, which is why at least a skeleton crew of French technicians was expected in Karachi to resume work.

The Agosta-class has not yet seen combat service. However, the PN was the first to achieve a combat victory with the preceding Daphne-class, with the Hangor sinking an IN frigate, the Khukri, during the December 1971 Indo-Pakistani War. The original Agosta-class SSKs were considered by Spain and Pakistan to be excellent submarines. A series of follow-on submarines were suggested for both navies, but after a series of paper studies, the most cost-effective solution, the Agosta-90B class, turned out to be a direct derivative of the baseline Agosta-class. The Agosta 90B-class reached fruition in the sale to Pakistan. The PN has two Agosta-class (Hashmat-class) SSKs and four of the earlier Daphne-class (Hangor-class) SS vessels.

END OF DOCUMENT

[H Khan]

KARACHI (January 20 2003) : The first indigenously built Agosta 90 B submarine, 'PNS M Saad' took to the sea for the first surface run and trials.

During the trials, the submarines was tested for its propulsion system, chain steering system, fuel system, speed monitoring system, communication system and submarines habitability and atmospheric control system, a news release of ISPR said on Sunday.

The submarine successfully cleared all the trials for systems as per trial performance requirements.

This marked the end of harbour trial phase in which 750 trials were carried out before proceeding to sea.

Submarine 'Saad' has progressed much satisfactorily during all the phases of construction outfitting and trials.

This signifies the quality standards achieved in construction, which are validated during the test of performance at sea in actual operation environment.

Commander Logistics, Rear Admiral Farooq Rashid, who himself is a mariner was present at the time and witnessed the quality of performance of the indigenously built submarine.

Pakistan Navy submarine NS/M Saad' will be inducted into PN fleet in the middle of this year.-APP

[uazim]

Originally posted by H Khan
KARACHI (January 20 2003) : The first indigenously built Agosta 90 B submarine, 'PNS M Saad' took to the sea for the first surface run and trials.

During the trials, the submarines was tested for its propulsion system, chain steering system, fuel system, speed monitoring system, communication system and submarines habitability and atmospheric control system, a news release of ISPR said on Sunday.

The submarine successfully cleared all the trials for systems as per trial performance requirements.

This marked the end of harbour trial phase in which 750 trials were carried out before proceeding to sea.

Submarine 'Saad' has progressed much satisfactorily during all the phases of construction outfitting and trials.

This signifies the quality standards achieved in construction, which are validated during the test of performance at sea in actual operation environment.

Commander Logistics, Rear Admiral Farooq Rashid, who himself is a mariner was present at the time and witnessed the quality of performance of the indigenously built submarine.

Pakistan Navy submarine NS/M Saad' will be inducted into PN fleet in the middle of this year.-APP

What a aupicious day for PN, a major milestone, whole nation deserve Mubarak, so my friends Mubarak to you all.

[H Khan]

Originally posted by uazim


What a aupicious day for PN, a major milestone, whole nation deserve Mubarak, so my friends Mubarak to you all.

Exactly my sentiments!

[Sultan]

ISLAMABAD (January 19 2003) : The Ambassador of France, Yannick Gerard, called on Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Shahid Karimullah, at the Naval Headquarters on Saturday.

The French Defence Attache, Col Jean Pierre Seznec, also joined the French envoy during the call.

They remained with the Naval Chief for some time and discussed matters of mutual interest.-APP

Copyright 2003 APP (Published under arrangements with Associated Press of Pakistan)

[H Khan]

KARACHI, Jan 20 (Reuters) - Pakistan's first indigenously built submarine has begun sea trials and is due to join the fleet in mid-year, a spokesman of the Pakistan Navy said on Monday.

The Agosta Class submarine Saad, which was built with the help of France, sailed from Karachi into the Arabian Sea for trials on Sunday after the successful completion of 750 tests in harbour, the spokesman said.

The harbour trials already conducted included those on the propulsion, steering, fuel, communications and speed monitoring systems, he said.

The submarine, which will be armed with anti-ship missiles as well as torpedoes, was built under a $1.2 billion deal with France's Department of Naval Connstruction (DCN) and Thales SA for three such vessels. The first was built in France and handed over to Pakistan in 1998.

The navy spokesman said all the trials were being conducted according to DCN quality standards. "We are in touch with them at every stage," he said.

The submarine is named after a close associate of Islam's Prophet Mohammad. It is due to be commissioned into the fleet in the middle of the year, more than year behind schedule.

The vessel was delayed because of the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan and the killing of 11 French naval technicians involved in the project in May last year.

The engineers died in a car bombing in Karachi blamed on Islamic militants.

Pakistan, locked in a tense standoff with its nuclear-armed neighbour and main rival India for much of last year, is expected to commission the third submarine from the programme in 2004.



01/20/03 07:34 ET

[SSAAD]

I found another news report (similar to one that Noman had posted esrlier) that discusses the possibility/motivation for India in the killing of the French engineers involved in Agosta ToT. It may sound a little conspiracy-oriented, but makes for an interesting reading.

India feared behind Karachi bomb blast

The Reporter

http://www.thereporter.net/viewfull.asp?ID=86

May 13,2002

ASHGABAT (PPA) -- European and Russian observers have voiced similar opinion that, in all likelihood, India may have engineered the recent brutal killing of French engineers in Karachi who were overseeing construction of Khalid class (Agosta B90) submarines, reports PPA correspondents Tariq Saeedi in Ashgabat and Sergi Pyatakov in Moscow. "Only India stands to benefit from this massacre [of French engineers]," said a western European diplomat based in Central Asia. When asked to explain his point of view, he said, "India has recently concluded agreement to build six Scorpene class French submarines.

First of these submarines will be ready in 2006 and till that time India has no way to counter the sub-surface superiority of Pakistan's Agosta [submarines]. Moreover, Indian shipbuilding industry is in no shape to undertake construction of submarines right away. It will be at least 2 to 3 years before India can up date its shipbuilding facilities to begin construction of Scorpene. India will benefit immensely if [submarine] construction programme of Pakistan is thwarted."

Similar view, with a new twist, was expressed by Genandy Kamarov (not his real name), a retired officer of KGB. He said, "Forgive my perverted mind if I see sinister designs where there may be none but the Karachi incident smacks of RAW-MOSSAD connection." Kamarov explained that according to his own sources, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon called in Mossad director Ephraim Halevy in the third week of February and gave 'precise instructions' to 'get the assassins of Danny Pearl.'

According to Kamarov's theory, 'precise instructions' to get Pearl's killers include close collaboration with RAW because Pakistan is one of the few countries where Israel does not have an effective network of its own. Referring to a recent incident where an American 'free lance journalist' was detained at Karachi airport because he was carrying a video film showing entrance gate of Karachi central prison, Kamarov said someone high up intervened and procured release of the 'journalist' along with the video.

Why the video of main entrance of Karachi jail ?, asked Kamarov. Is it part of Israeli plan to get at killers of Pearl?, he wondered. Elaborating on his theory, Kamarov said, "It is the first time since 1972 that an Israeli prime minister has issued direct orders to get at assassins of a Jew. Now, if we assume that RAW and MOSSAD are working jointly to get at Pearl's killers -- and there are reasons to assume that they are working together. Pearl, before his kidnapping, was staying with an Indian lady in Karachi who had been denied Pakistani visa but somehow managed to get it and came over to Karachi.

The same Indian lady intervened for release of the American journalist who was carrying video of Karachi jail. What is the connection between Pearl and this other American journalist, and who is that Indian lady?" "Now, remember that in the shadowy world of espionage and betrayal, there are no friends and no enemies. We all have our jobs to do and we work without emotion, in cold blood. If RAW is helping Mossad get the Pearl killers, RAW will want something in return. That 'something' can be a workable plan to halt Pakistani submarine plan because at the moment Indian armed forces are superior to Pakistan in every respect but one : They don't have anything to counter the threat posed by Agosta submarines."

For all intent and purpose, it appears that Kamarov's theory stands on solid ground because the Karachi massacre seems to have achieved a heavy blow to Pakistan's Agosta 90B submarine programme. By extension, it has also caused a substantial damage to Pakistan's economy in terms of investors' confidence. No one but India stands to gain from this tragedy. Concluding his remarks, Kamarov said, "Indians cannot hope to get their Scorpene submarines till 2006 and they will do everything to prevent Pakistan from getting an edge over India in terms of sub-surface vessels till that time."

The fact that India's shipbuilding facilities are in shambles and India has no way to build submarine quickly, is supported by Strategic Affairs, a highly respected professional journal, which carried these remarks in its September 2001 issue : "Ironically, the simulator acquisition is taking place at a time when India's domestic submarine-building programme is mired in uncertainty because of the poor state of its shipyards." News from Indian quarters also suggests India's undisguised happiness over the sad incident. Indian Express on 9 May 2002 quoted a jubilant Indian naval analyst : ‘‘There will no doubt be a loss of confidence among the French. Other group of specialists from France will be apprehensive about coming to Pakistan." says Commodore Uday Bhaskar, Deputy Director, India’s Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA).

Given the fact that some of India's 'strategic assets' are scattered along its coastline, within easy reach of silent Agosta, India seems quite willing to make all efforts to halt Pakistan's indigenous manufacturing plan of sub-surface boats. Failure to do so is not desirable for Indian policy makers because in that case they will have to remain subdued till 2006 when first Scorpene will be able to set sails with Indian flag. The Indian Navy plans to build 26 submarines in the next 30 years but the only shipyard capable of building them, Mazgaon Dock in Mumbai, needs a considerable infusion of money to develop the infrastructure.

There is no indication yet that the Defence Ministry has that kind of money. Indian attention is now focused on the French Scorpene submarine, which is to be built in India under license from DCN. Here too, the poor state of infrastructure at Mazgaon Dock could be an obstacle. Even if funds are released by the year-end, it could take two-to-three years to modernize the yard. Scorpene has been designed and developed jointly by DCN (Naval Construction Directorate) of France and Izar (formerly Bazan) of Spain. Under code name Project 75, India is planning to build and acquire 30 submarines, raising the total number of sub surface vessels in its fleet to 45 within next 30 years. Scorpene, hailed as "silent killer" is the first submarine India plans to build.

Later, the construction plans may include Russian Amur class submarines. Scorpene is said to be superior to Agosta although no substantial reasons are offered to prove its superiority. In realistic and practical terms, Scorpene is inferior to Agosta in all respects but one : it provides a more 'silent' platform. The main advantage conventional submarines such as Agosta and Scorpene have over nuclear submarines is their element of surprise. A conventional submarine moves silently while a nuclear submarine makes a peculiar 'signature noise', created by its atomic reactors.

Under optimal thermal conditions, a conventional submarine like Agosta or Scorpene is almost impossible to detect in deep waters. The only drawback of conventional vis-à-vis atomic submarines is that they have to come up periodically to 'snorkel' and charge their batteries. This drawback has also been rectified with introduction of MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) independent air propulsion system which gives it under-water endurance quite comparable to nuclear submarines.

Both Agosta and Scorpene are equipped with this system. Except for 'noise factor' Scorpene, though pricier, is not superior to Agosta. Scorpene has a maximum range of 6400 nautical miles at 8 knots while Agosta can go almost twice that distance at higher speed : 11000 nautical miles at 11 knots. Scorpene has a rated endurance of 50 days while Agosta has the endurance of 68 days, a clear advantage when you are operating away from your home base. Both Scorpene and Agosta can operate at a depth of more than 350 meters. Agosta has the ability to 'sprint' for a reasonable distance at a speed exceeding 40 knots.

According to a report carried by Hindustan Times on 22 February 2002, highly-placed sources in New Delhi and Moscow informed that India is negotiating with Russia for the lease of an unfinished Akula-II (Shark) Bars class nuclear submarine. Work on this submarine was about 85 per cent complete when its construction stopped in 1996. This unfinished submarine is reportedly "sitting" at the Amur Shipbuilding Plant at Komsomolsk-na-Amur in eastern Siberia. Negotiations for its lease have been going on for over three years. It is expected that by the end of this year India will get possession of this submarine which is capable of launching atomic warheads.

Another indication of Indian Navy's nuclear ambitions also came from Hindustan Times, which on 15 February 2002, informed that officers of the Indian Navy and Air Force have commenced training at the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC), Trombay, to learn how to handle nuclear devices.

A nuclear submarine, even though equipped with nuclear warheads, will be ineffective against Pakistan for the time being because it will lose its element of surprise against stealthy Agosta 90B. By derailing Agosta project, India can hope to maintain sub surface superiority till 2006 when its Scorpene submarines will begin floating out of the construction dock. Reportedly, India also has 3 Amur class submarines in advanced stage of construction in Russia though the information could not be confirmed from independent sources. India is also aware of the painful fact that with retirement of INS Vikram from the service, Indian Navy has only one aircraft carrier, INS Viraat. The alleged aquisition of the STOBAR carrier Gorshkov and the MiG-29K's to operate from it are not going to be enough to provide the kind of air superiority India craves - the sortie rate from this carrier isn't enough and the aircraft doesn't have the payload/range of a catapult launched type.-PPA

Courtesy : www.thereporter.net

http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:69FUQXzg7c4C:bangladesh-web.com/news/may/13/a13052002.htm+scorpene+agosta+90b&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[H Khan]

.c The Associated Press

KARACHI, Pakistan (AP) - Two men were formally charged Saturday with murder, terrorism, and conspiracy in a May suicide car-bombing that killed 11 French engineers in the southern Pakistani city of Karachi, prosecutors said.

The men - Asif Zaheer and Bashir Ahmed - were charged at a hearing in an anti-terrorism court, prosecutor Habib Ahmed said. They face the death penalty if convicted.

Investigating officer Qazi Chand Mohammed told AP that police had completed their investigation into the blast, and were confident that the court will rule in their favor. The trial is set to begin on Feb. 1.

``We have enough evidence to prove they are guilty, and we are sure they will be convicted,'' he said.

Ahmed was arrested in Karachi earlier this month, while Zaheer was picked up in December. Police say Ahmed has admitted he was in the car packed with explosives until shortly before it crashed into a bus carrying the French engineers. A suicide bomber and two Pakistani passers-by were also killed in the blast.

Zaheer has admitted packing the explosives into the car. Police are searching for four more men.

A team of five French investigators arrived in Karachi earlier this week to discuss the case with Pakistani officials. They have also been allowed to question the two suspects, police said.

On May 8, suspected Islamic militants rammed a car laden with explosives into a bus carrying the French engineers, who were about to leave for their jobs helping build a submarine for Pakistan's navy.

Ahmed is believed to be a member of Harkat-ul-Mujahedeen al-Almi, a splinter group of Harkat-ul-Mujahedeen, or Movement of Holy Warriors - an al-Qaida-affiliated extremist group whose members fought alongside the Taliban during U.S.-led airstrikes in Afghanistan.



01/25/03 09:18 EST

[SSAAD]

Pakistan will not arm submarines with nuclear warheads: naval chief
28 minutes ago


ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Pakistan will not arm its submarines with nuclear warheads unless compelled to do so by the action of an adversary, Pakistan's navy chief said Saturday.



"We don't have any plan to tip our submarine with nuclear weapons, but would consider only if we were forced to do it," Admiral Shahid Karimullah said.


Karimullah did not specify any potential adversary, although he was almost certainly referring to India, Pakistan's nuclear-equipped rival with whom it has fought three wars since 1947.


Karimullah's remarks were reported by the state news agency and confirmed by navy officials. They came days after India signed an agreement with Russia to purchase nuclear-powered submarines and other advanced military equipment.


Pakistan has already warned that India's agreement with Russia would further increase military tensions in the region. Tensions spiked after India and Pakistan conducted nuclear tests in 1998 and the countries almost went to war last year following a Dec. 13, 2001, attack on the Indian Parliament which New Delhi blamed on two Pakistan-based Islamic militant groups.


Both sides pulled back troops from their mutual border following international mediation, although the war of words between them has yet to subside.


Pakistan operates a small submarine fleet and this month began sea trials of its first domestically built sub. The craft, a French-designed Agosta model, is equipped with four bow torpedo tubes, missiles, and a French combat electronics system.

[SSAAD]

"An investigator said that during interrogation Mr Zaheer admitted he had mistaken the Frenchmen for Americans and regretted killing "friends of Pakistan''.


Pakistan bomb suspects charged


The bloody attack left 11 French nationals dead

Two men have formally been charged with murder, terrorism, and conspiracy in connection with the suicide attack which killed 11 French engineers and two Pakistani bystanders in Karachi.
Asif Zaheer and Bashir Ahmed will go on trial on 1 February.

Others are suspected of masterminding the attack, but Mr Zaheer and Mr Ahmed are so far the only people detained.

A car packed with explosives drove into a Pakistan navy bus outside the Sheraton hotel in May last year.

'Militant links'

Mr Zaheer, 28, was arrested in December on suspicion of involvement in a separate plot to ram an explosives-laden car into a US diplomatic vehicle in Karachi.

Police say he has confessed to planting explosives in the Sheraton car bomb attack.

Mr Zaheer reportedly told police he received training at a camp of the extremist group, Harkatul Jihad-e-Islami, in Afghanistan.

He reportedly said he was determined to punish Americans for their military actions in Afghanistan.

An investigator said that during interrogation Mr Zaheer admitted he had mistaken the Frenchmen for Americans and regretted killing "friends of Pakistan''.

The engineers were helping Pakistan's navy build an Agosta 90-B submarine.

Mr Ahmed is believed to be a member of the al-Qaeda affiliate, Harkat-ul-Mujahedeen al-Almi, the Associated Press reports.

Members of the group fought alongside the Taleban during US-led airstrikes in Afghanistan.

Mr Ahmed apparently admitted to being in Kabul on 11 September 2001 and said he regretted not having met al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, AP says.

He left Afghanistan six weeks after the attacks on New York and Washington, the agency reports.

[H Khan]

ISLAMABAD, Jan 25 (AFP) - 16:54 GMT - Pakistan Saturday said it would not arm its submarines with nuclear warheads unless it felt compelled to do so by its nuclear rival India.
"We don't have any plan to tip our submarines with nuclear weapons but would consider only if we were forced to do it," Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Shahid Karimullah, said.

Karimullah told reporters that the pending introduction of a second Agosta-90 B submarine would further boost the navy's strength.

Pakistan's first Agosta 90-B was built in France and commissioned into service in September 1999.

The second submarine developed with French assistance is presently undergoing a series of tests which should be completed in couple of weeks.

The submarines are equipped with four bow torpedo tubes and missiles.

Naval officers say the Agosta 90-B has been designed to operate as an anti-submarine, anti-surface and intelligence-gathering platform and is also capable of diving deeper than 300 metres (about 1,000 feet) with a maximum sprint speed of 20 knots (40 kilometres per hour).

It was built at the naval dockyard in the southern port city of Karachi with the help of French marine engineers.

Eleven members of a French technical team engaged on the submarine project were killed and another 12 injured in a suicide car-bombing in Karachi last May.

[H Khan]

NEW DELHI, Feb 5 (AFP) - 04:02 GMT - Nuclear India's growing military needs have made it the jewel sought by Western armaments firms but Delhi is now studying offers more closely than imports it blindly ordered from its Cold War ally, the Soviet Union.
Experts estimate that India's annual defence budget could soar by five billion dollars to 20 billion dollars and that it would carry a bulging purse of 100 billion dollars for military purchases spanning the next decade.

"Among the developing nations, India's defence spending is the largest apart from the United Arab Emirates and so India today is in a position of strength to dictate terms," said former Indian air force chief S.K. Kaul.

The comments came a day before the arrival of French Premier Jean-Pierre Raffarin, who is likely to press India to buy 120 Mirage-2000H jets worth eight billion dollars besides holding talks on the sale of French Scorpene submarines.

"Every time a visitor comes, he comes as an arms peddler with a delegation -- just like the British who came to hawk the Hawk," Kaul said of Prime Minister Tony Blair who personally lobbied to sell the British trainer jet to India tagged at 1.63 billion dollars for 66 units.

The Soviet Union was India's largest arms supplier, accounting for 70 percent of its military hardware, followed by France, Britain and the United States.

Kaul and others said India's burgeoning foreign exchange reserves, its new status as a nuclear weapons state and its growing military needs made it vital that New Delhi sought counter-guarantees in long-term arms contracts.

"Oman wanted spares of British-built Jaguar jets from us but Britain did not allow it because we could have grabbed their market with lower production costs, and so they are protectionist which India has to fight now," Kaul said.

"India should not just have a buyer-seller relationship because after money is made the seller forgets the buyer, who comes to grief.

"But if it is a commitment from both sides like manufacturing, buy-back arrangements and offsetting trade then a long-term deal is sustained and honoured," the former airforce chief said.

India's British- and French-built military assets and US-backed defence projects suffered hugely due to Washington's sanctions on India in retaliation for nuclear tests ordered by New Delhi in May 1998.

"France stood by us during the sanctions but since its commercial interests in Pakistan are harmful to us we have to have quid pro quos in place with them as well," a senior defence ministry source said.

India's nuclear rival Pakistan is France's third best customer after Taiwan and Saudi Arabia, with sales between 1991 and 1997 accounting for 1.5 billion dollars. Islamabad now plans to acquire French stealth frigates being built for the Saudi Arabian navy.

"We are also coming out of contractual obligations with our ally Russia and India will have now to insist on provisions on third-nation sale, technology transfers and on glitch-free spare supply-lines," the ministry official added.

Uday Bhaskar, deputy chief of the Institute of Defence Studies and Analysis think-tank, conceded that India signed along the dotted lines on military deals with the Kremlin as it had no other supply source during the Cold War.

"India was really not as enabled as a buyer then as it is today... Now the context has changed and India is more aware how much it can get because of the decline of arms sales globally and because the number of major buyers is now restricted given the fact that these platforms are becoming as expensive and as large as they are.

"My sense is that the entire Indian effort is now geared towards greater degrees of joint ventures an third-nation supplies and the awareness of what the global market is all about is far, far more than what it was 10 years ago," Bhaskar said.

Former chairman of India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), Krishnadas Nair, said his company, which so far has made 1,200 aircraft, had proved that joint ventures were beneficial.

"We have had this buyer-seller relation for too long which has not worked at all and HAL signed many many partnerships because I as its chief had wanted durable relationships," Nair told AFP.

[SyedA]

this explains why the delay in F-22P frigates from China and Ukrainian offer.

The Saudi frigate deals seems to have two possibilities.

1. Pakistan ordered through them so no one gets alarmed, especially indians.

2. Saudi financed it for us, and might have some hiden agendas.

[H Khan]

Specs please for these ships?

Another possibility is that PN buys 4-6 F-22P (during the course of tens years) from China and buys another 4-6 French frigates in six years.

[azeemchoudhary]

salaam
seems very interesting that the PN "could" still be interested in the La Fayette, are there any other sources verfiying that the PN may/may not be interested in it? if so seems related to the information released late last year about the extended range exocet missile which was reportedly targeted at a Pakistani market! certainly would be an excellent addition to the fleet, adding excellent capabilities, no doubt the PN would seek some sort of ToT, but the price may be a hinderence in such a deal i have no idea if the PN could possibly afford to go into such a deal, seems unlikely that the Government could fund a deal such as that considering that the PAF is looking to sign a big deal, dont think that the government could finance 2 big deals (i know i sound pessimistic probably because its so early in the morning), but i would love to see these beauties in PN service!!

[SyedA]

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/lafayette/index.html

[Rashid]

AOA

Gentlmen, who wouldnt love to see these ships flying the PN ensign, but we have to be realistic. The Saudis are our friends, but acquiring these ships from the french under their own program for us, is rather questionable.

We will be going for the F-22Ps. Any other source of ships is still not out in the open.

[Sultan]

Under the Sawari II programme the Saudis are to receive air-defence versions of the La Fayette. I would have thought that if the PN would go for the La Fayete they would chose the "multi role" version a lot like the Singaporean project Delta programme.

Rashid, a few months ago there was a news piece floating around that Ukraine was offering to design and construct a completely new frigate for the PN. Do you have any info. on this?

and is this a project the PN is likely to pursue or would they play it safe with procuring a tested design along with a ToT?

Do you know what the Ukrainian contribution to the F22P will be? cheers in advance.

[uzairahmed]

The second Agosta 90-B submarine being built in Karachi for the Pakistan Navy was launched on 24 August 2002. In 1994, Paris and Islamabad concluded a contract for the construction of three submarines at a total cost of US $ 950 million. It was decided to construct the first submarine in France with assistance from the French state-owned shipbuilding company Direction des Constructions Navales (DCN). The other two were to be assembled/constructed in Pakistan. The loan for construction is being provided by the French and will be repaid in a period of five to six years. The French agreed not to supply these submarines to India.
Pakistan has sourced its naval hardware largely from France. In 1963, it contracted three Daphne class submarines. The UN embargo on military sales to South Africa resulted in several Agosta class submarines remaining with France. The Pakistani Navy availed of this opportunity and signed a contract in 1966. In 1973, Pakistan approached France for Atlantique maritime patrol aircraft, as also the repair of three naval ships. Thus the foundations for the Franco-Pakistani defence cooperation are long established.
Bitter experience with US embargoes on military sales has been an important factor forcing Pakistan to look for alternate sources of military supplies from France. Although French equipment was relatively expensive, Islamabad procured them because there was little fear of sanctions, as the French military sales policy was independent of Western approaches to sanctions. According to a report tabled in the Parliament by the French Ministry of Defence, Pakistan is France's third largest customer after Taiwan and Saudi Arabia. Between 1991 and 1997, military sales to Pakistan accounted for US$ 1.5 billion. The Pakistani Navy now plans to acquire French stealth frigates that were built for the Saudi Arabian Navy.
While France has emerged as an important source for the Pakistan Navy, there have been calls by the French National Assembly and a major trade union to reduce defence sales to Pakistan. This stance is primarily due to the unfortunate incident of 8 May 2002 in Karachi when eleven French engineers were killed in a terrorist attack. Since the September 11 attacks on the US, France has played a significant role in the international war on terrorism. President Jacques Chirac announced that France would do everything necessary to help the United States eradicate terrorism. A French naval task group headed by the Charles de Gaulle nuclear powered aircraft and a nuclear submarine was deployed in the Indian Ocean. France's involvement in the campaign was mostly limited to logistical and intelligence support, and its aircraft carrier conducted surveillance missions to prevent Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda members from escaping by the sea route.
Although there has been no criticism of France by the Jihadi groups linked with bin Laden, a possible reason for the attack on the submarine engineers may have been the perceived French co-operation with the US in the war against terrorism. Besides, the French counter-terrorism agencies have been very active in investigating the links of the Al Qaeda in France. Their bank accounts have been frozen. The French have been active in Afghanistan since 1956. The Direction generale de la Securite exterieure (DGSE), the French CIA, had long established their 'presence and preeminence' several years before the arrival of the American CIA or the British MI5 in the region. They have based their policies on building and maitaining long term 'human relationships' in areas of potential interest and flavoured it with military sales.
During his formative years, Ahmed Shah Massood attended a French school in Kabul, and several French civilians were his close friends who visited the Panjsher valley to offer support. French support for Massood remained strong even after the Soviet Union withdrew from Afghanistan. In 2001, Massood visited Europe with French support, where he appealed for concrete aid against the Taliban but could only get promises of sanctions and pressure against the Taliban. At the start of Operation Enduring Freedom, there were about forty DGSE operatives in the Panjsher valley and Taloqan. The French have vast intelligence about the region and the US and British intelligence operatives were accorded access to French intelligence files.
The support to Masood provided Paris with a regional role and permitted an aggressive military sales strategy not linked to the US or British policies. It is understood that President Chirac wants France to increase its defence presence in Pakistan, opening up the possibility for more joint ventures between the two countries.

http://www.ipcs.org/issues/800/836-mi-sakhuja.html

[Sultan]

RECORDER REPORT
KARACHI (February 08 2003) : The Maritime Security Agency (MSA) has asked fishermen to convey all information regarding attacks by the Indian Navy on Pakistani fishing boats in the country's territorial waters.

Reacting to reports of attacks, appearing in the local press, the MSA said that many events were generally not reported to the MSA, and only few cases were brought to the notice of the agency and that too very late.

The MSA was referring to the incident of firing on Pakistani fishermen by Indians in the Arabian Sea along the country's maritime boundary.

It said probably the offenders had looted the catch and fishing nets from Pakistani fishing boats.

The MSA has been assigned the responsibility to protect the country's fishing vessels and crew against any threats, intrusions or interference within the maritime zones of Pakistan.

The agency also assists and co-ordinates search and rescue operations for such fishing vessels, property and lives in distress and renders necessary assistance in emergency at high seas.

The MSA has established a National Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre (NMRCC) at its headquarters, which works round-the-clock.

The MSA seeks timely provision of the information to the Operation Room of the NMRCC to ensure immediate help to the distressed vessel or people at sea.

The MSA advised the people to contact on the following phone numbers in case of an emergency: 48508912, 9214964, 9214966, fax: 9214625.

Copyright 2003 Business Recorder (http://www.brecorder.com)

[Usman S.]

'PN allowed to negotiate purchase of Chinese frigates'

ISLAMABAD: Senior Minister for Defence Rao Sikandar Iqbal on Thursday attended a presentation by the Pakistan Navy on its role in the regional maritime scenario and its readiness to thwart any aggression that may emerge from seaward. Speaking on the occasion he said: "I take pride in acknowledging the steadfastness with which Pakistan Navy faced the Indian threat in the recent stand-off, especially in the complex scenario where coalition forces were also operating off our coast." The government is fully cognizant of Navy's requirement of ships and has, therefore, authorised Pakistan Navy to negotiate with China for the acquisition of F-22P frigates, Rao said.

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/index.html

[H Khan]

ISLAMABAD (February 23 2003) : Rear Admiral Shah Iqbal Mujtaba, Chief of the Naval Staff, Bangladesh Navy, accompanied by his wife is arriving Pakistan on Sunday on an official visit at the invitation of Admiral Shahid Karimullah, Chief of the Naval Staff.

Apart from holding detailed discussions on professional matters with Admiral Shahid Karimullah, Rear Admiral Shah Iqbal Mujtaba will also hold high level meetings during his stay in Pakistan.

He will call on the President General Pervez Musharraf, Prime Minister Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali, Defence Minister Rao Sikandar Iqbal, Chairman Joint Chief of Staff Committee, General Aziz Ahmed Khan and Acting Chief of the Air Staff Air Marshal Syed Qaiser Hussein.

He will also visit various naval units including PN Dockyard at Karachi.

Rear Admiral Shah Iqbal Mujtaba joined the Navy on 11 November 1966 and was commissioned in the Executive Branch on 01 June 1970. In his long distinguished and decorative naval career, Admiral Mujtaba has commanded almost all the major ships and establishments of Bangladesh Navy.

As Area and Fleet Commander, he has served as the Commodore Commanding BN Flotilla, Commodore Commanding Khulna and Naval Administrative Authority Dhaka.

He also served as the Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Operations) and Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Personnel).

Admiral Mujtaba became the architect of inducting Women Officers in active Naval Service, which was first of such a step in Bangladesh Armed Forces.

At the Joint Services level, Admiral Mujtaba held the appointments of the Deputy Commandant Defence Service and Staff College, Mirpur, Dhaka.-NNI

[Sultan]

ISLAMABAD (February 24 2003) : Chief of Naval Staff (CNS) Admiral Shahid Karimullah called on Prime Minister Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali at Prime Minister's House this afternoon and discussed with him professional matters with special reference to his forthcoming visit to a number of friendly Muslim countries.

Talking to Naval Chiefs the Prime Minister said that Government is committed to strengthen the Armed Forces of the country.

He specially referred to the Navy's important role in guarding the sea lanes and trade routes, and expressed the confidence that it is fully capable of performing its national duty with regard to defence of our maritime frontiers.-APP

Copyright 2003 APP (Published under arrangements with Associated Press of Pakistan)

[Sultan]

KARACHI (February 27 2003) : The Naval war games exercise Shamsheer-e-Bahr 2003 will
commence on Friday at PNS Bahadur.

The war games are on similar lines as exercise "Sabit Qadam" conducted at NDC last year.
It will run the entire gamut of tension and wartime scenario, especially in the southern sector
of Pakistan and maritime areas of interest.

The exercise is aimed at validating PN war plans in response to threat posed to the Pakistani
maritime security.

Syndicates from Pakistan Army and Air Force will also participate in Shamsheer-e-Bahr apart
from regular Naval syndicates.

The opening session will be attended by Prime Minister Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali on
February 28 at the Pakistan Navy Tactical School Dockyard.

Key members of the cabinet will accompany the prime minister who will spend the day with
Pakistan Navy and will also review the fleet.-APP

Copyright 2003 APP (Published under arrangements with Associated Press of Pakistan)

[H Khan]

KARACHI (March 01 2003) : Chief of the Naval Staff (CNS) Admiral Shahid Karimullah said here on Friday that the government has allowed Pakistan Navy (PN) to purchase new warships from China.

Speaking at the Darbar of Sailors of Pakistan Navy, Admiral Shahid Karimullah said the nation is proud of the staff of Pakistan Navy, who have proved their professional capabilities by building the PN Submarine SAAD.

"The nation is proud of your performance," he remarked.

He hoped that under the self-reliance programme Pakistan Navy would complete the building of Missile Boats on time.

He said the enemy is already ready to find an excuse to attack on us, "so we should always be ready to face any challenge".-APP

[Rashid]

AOA

A Naval team is proceeding to China to finally evaluate the Z-9.
Lets see what report they submitt when they come back.

And the CNS will also be leaving for China to sign the deal for F22Ps in the very near future.

[Sultan]

A Naval team is proceeding to China to finally evaluate the Z-9.

Rashid,
I presume the evaluation of the Z9 is as a potential helo for the F22P's, right?

If they do go for the Z9 is the PN thinking of numbers to equip the F22Ps as well as replacing the current Alouette's in PN service?

I recall reading on this forum that the PN was interested in acquiring some more ex-RN Lynk (sp.?) helos. Is the PN still actively interested in acquiring the Lynk??

Cheers in advance.

[Rashid]

AOA

Sultan, yes these Z9s will be integral with the F22Ps but will be shore based.

We are not replacing the Alouettes. The role of the Alouettes is primarily to train young rotary wing pilots and they will remain in service as we dont have problems in spare support for them.

There has been positive progress in removal of sanctions and spares for the Seakings. Lets see what comes forth.

The Z9s will be an aditional squadron primarily for ASW/SAR and many secondary roles.

No talks for ex-RN Lynx is underway. They proposed to us to buy the ex-RN Seaking Mk-2s but they arnt worth buying, as they have almost finished there airframe life as well as other main parts life. But then the offer was withdrawn by some third party pressure. :)

The Z-9 version which the Chinese have offered us is quite capable. I dont want to give the detailed specs, roles and equipment fitted right now, but in due course of time. Let the deal go through first.

[Shoaib]

China to give four frigates to Pakistan

From Our Special Correspondent

BEIJING-China has in principle agreed to supply to Pakistan four frigates to upgrade its naval fleet.

The agreement was reached here when Prime Minister Zafarullah Jamali met Jiang Zemin, Defence Minister and Chairman Central Military Commission of China.

It may be noted that Mr Jamali in his luncheon speech on Tuesday had mentioned India’s move to upgrade its bluewater Navy which poses a direct threat not only to Pakistan but to other countries on the Indian Ocean littoral.

Previously Pakistan had acquired submarines from France and it is widely believed that the terrorist attack killing French engineers in Karachi last year was a crude Indian attempt to thwart Pakistan’s efforts to equip its Navy with a modern fleet.

Last month Pakistan’s Chief of Naval Staff had announced that the Navy intended to acquire Chinese frigates on a transfer-of-technology basis.

Earlier the Prime Minister called on Chinese President Hu Jintao who reiterated his country’s longstanding friendship with Pakistan and said that the Sino-Pak relationship was an all-weather friendship. He also extended his country’s full support to Pakistan on all regional and international issues including its efforts to reduce tension in the region.

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/mar-2003/26/main/top5.asp

[Sardar Agha]

Acquisition of frigates on priority: Musharraf


KARACHI, April 2: Pakistan is a peaceful nation but it will give an appropriate reply should anyone cast an evil eye on it, President Pervez Musharraf reiterated here on Wednesday.

Speaking at a briefing on Pakistan Navy's annual wargame Shamsheer-i-Bahr, the president said the government was cognizant of navy's needs and acquisition of frigates was being given due priority.

He pledged support for other development plans of the maritime sector and referred to the progress of coastal highway and Gwadar port in this regard.

Earlier, Deputy Chief of Naval Staff (operations) Rear Admiral Iftikhar Ahmad Rao said this year's exercise was carried out on a wider canvas and included greater participation by Pakistan Army and Pakistan Air Force which augured well for inter-service cooperation in joint operations.

Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Shahid Karimullah emphasized that lessons derived from the exercise should be exploited to enhance navy's preparedness to defend the sea frontiers at any cost.-APP

[SyedA]

Acquisition of frigates on priority: Musharraf

KARACHI, April 2: Pakistan is a peaceful nation but it will give an appropriate reply should anyone cast an evil eye on it, President Pervez Musharraf reiterated here on Wednesday.

Speaking at a briefing on Pakistan Navy's annual wargame Shamsheer-i-Bahr, the president said the government was cognizant of navy's needs and acquisition of frigates was being given due priority.

He pledged support for other development plans of the maritime sector and referred to the progress of coastal highway and Gwadar port in this regard.

Earlier, Deputy Chief of Naval Staff (operations) Rear Admiral Iftikhar Ahmad Rao said this year's exercise was carried out on a wider canvas and included greater participation by Pakistan Army and Pakistan Air Force which augured well for inter-service cooperation in joint operations.

Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Shahid Karimullah emphasized that lessons derived from the exercise should be exploited to enhance navy's preparedness to defend the sea frontiers at any cost.-APP

[zeeshan]

Navy, KSEW launch MPACs

KARACHI: The Pakistan Navy achieved another landmark in the field of indigenous development and combat vessel building by launching the construction of Multi-Purpose Auxiliary Crafts (MPACs) in collaboration with Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works.

The ceremony to mark this achievement was held at Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works on Friday. Deputy Chief of Naval Staff (Projects) Rear Admiral Sikandar Vaqar Naqvi was the chief guest.

The contract encompasses the construction of two Multi-Purpose Auxiliary Crafts at KSEW within a period of two years. Each craft would be 38 metres long, 8 metres wide and weigh 250 tonnes.

Admiral Naqvi said that undertaking of the construction work of these viable combat platforms was an indicator of the highest degree of professionalism and dedication of KSEW experts and the Pakistan Navy workers.

Naqvi further said that sailing of these crafts with PN ensign would open numerous avenues of opportunities for KSEW to enhance its capabilities for undertaking bigger projects. These crafts would undoubtedly add to the strength, capabilities and pride of Pakistan Navy, he added.

Earlier, in his welcome address Rear Admiral Azhar Hussain, Managing Director, KSEW, thanked the Pakistan Navy for all the necessary assistance being provided to KSEW. He expressed the resolve to complete the project within stipulated time frame.

He assured the Pakistan Navy of maintaining highest quality control. Later, Rear Admiral Naqvi welded a part of the keel to mark the beginning of construction work of vessels. The ceremony was attended by senior Naval officers, officers of KSEW and civil dignitaries.

[Zarrar]

guys any details on this project ???

what purpose these vessels would serve .. "multipurpose" means they can be fitted with combat systems of various types for various roles ?? or what ??

the size and tonnage of the type .......... what are the comparable other such vessels in our navy ??

[Sultan]

Well Done to KSEW & PN.

Rashid could you please explain what specific purpose these vessels will serve. I understand that they are for logistics but the "multipurpose" tag does raise questions?

Furthermore, does the PN have any plans to develop/acquire amphibious assault capability in terms of surface vessels, manpower and associated vehicles, air component i.e. helos?

[Rashid]

AOA

Sultan I will come back with details for these crafts.

Multi-purpose Aux craft means the capability to have Oil, water, stores, spares to support other ships.

The previous Aux ships KSEW made for PN only had oil and linited store capability.

No plans to acquire/develop amp capabilities.

[Usman S.]

Land reserved for Naval college in Azad Kashmir

MIRPUR (April 10 2003) : Azad Jammu and Kashmir government has decided in principle to set up a full-fledged Rs 200 million Naval Cadet College in Muzaffarabad with the co-operation and technical assistance of Pakistan Navy, official sources said here on Wednesday.

The sources told APP that the AJK government has acquired 400 kanal of land at Tandali, 8 kms away from the AJK metropolis on Jhelum Valley Road, for the proposed Navel Cadet College to be named in memory of the martyred sailor of the Pakistan Navy, Hafeez Shaheed, belonging to Muzaffarabad district.

At least Rs 50 million have been spent for purchase of the land for the college, the sources said.

Meanwhile, Azad Jammu and Kashmir government has invited Pakistan Navy to extend required assistance for the establishment of the proposed Hafeez Shaheed Navel Cadet College.

The AJK government, according to the sources, has informed, through a detailed letter, the concerned branch of Pakistan Navy about purchase of land for the college seeking required assistance for the execution of the construction work on the project.

AJK government is also understood to have decided to take up the matter before top Pakistan Navy authorities to ensure the early establishment of the project, the sources said.-APP

www.brecorder.com

[Junaid]

NEW DELHI: India on Friday launched its first indigenously built stealth warship as part of its ambition of increasing its maritime influence in the Indian Ocean, defence ministry officials said.

The ship, christened INS Shivalik after one of India’s Himalayan peaks, has been built at the state-run Mazgoan Dock Ltd (MDL) near Bombay and is designed to evade interception as part of its stealth capabilities, they said.

Warship Shivalik, part of a national naval project to build three stealth ships, will be assigned operational duties when fully armed by December 2005, the officials said.

The remaining two will be commissioned with the Indian navy in 2006 and in 2007.

“Shivalik will play the dual role of offensive and defensive combat and it also has the capacity to attack in-shore targets,” a defence ministry official said.

MDL chief HS Kang said Shivalik’s original cost when the project left the drawing board in 1994 was estimated at two billion rupees ($42 million) and warned the cost would jump 10 times by the time it is deployed in two years time.

Defence Minister George Fernandes was among the officials present at the ship’s formal launch into the Arabian Sea by naval chief Admiral Madhavendra Singh’s wife Kaumudi Kumari, the MDL ship-builders said. Further details of the ship were not available, but sources said it was likely to be fitted with the 300-kilometre anti-ship cruise missile BrahMos, being jointly built by India and Russia. French military ship-builders are trying to sell or build stealth ships for the 137-ship Indian navy. The Indian navy, which is also expecting the delivery of a Russia-made stealth warship later this year, plans to build an aircraft carrier to double its fleet of such maritime combat platforms to two. —AFP

Delhi expresses concern to US on delay of Israeli AWACS

NEW DELHI: India has expressed “deep concern” to a visiting US congressional team on delays in the supply of Israeli Phalcon AWACS despite the deal being reportedly cleared by Washington, officials said on Friday. India’s concern was conveyed to visiting US delegation members who recently met Defence Minister George Fernandes, government officials said. Last September, a high-powered Indian team visited Tel Aviv for final negotiations on the purchase of Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS). India insists that it won concrete assurances from the US in 2001 that Washington would not block New Delhi’s purchase of the Phalcon, despite fears the acquisition could spark an arms race in South Asia. India, however, without waiting for Washington’s nod, began negotiating a tripartite deal with Russia and Israel to mount Phalcon radars on Russian Ilyshin-76 cargo aircraft instead of using planes made by US-based Boeing Corp. The India-Israel deal involves three Phalcon AWACS, and is worth one billion US dollars. —AFP

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_19-4-2003_pg7_5

[Sultan]

I do believe that India's indigenous stealth warship is actually the Krivak frigates that the IN had ordered.

[Ahmed M]

Any idea on how capable these ships are?

[uzairahmed]

Nopes these are apart from the frigates ordered from RUSSIA.

Let me explain what they are.

Christened as the 'new' Nilgiri Class frigate, the P17 is an enlarged and modified version of the Russian P1135.6 Talwar {Krivak III} Class frigates. It was jointly designed by the NDB and Russia's Severnoye Project Design Bureau (Severnoye Proyektno-Konstruktorskoye Bjuro - SPKB), the designers of the P1135.6 frigate. SPKB has been a consulting partner to the IN for quite some time now and its design influence is clearly seen in the Type 15 Delhi Class destroyers and Type 25/25A Khukri / Kora Class corvettes. More recently, France's DCN International (DCNI) has been involved in this project as a consultant undertaking signature management studies amongst other things. CAE of Canada will act as the overall platform functional integrator, which is landmark since this is the first time a Western company has been put in charge of a vital IN project.

Armament

The weapon details are speculative and based on various reports and inputs. Unlike the Talwar Class, which will feature a 100mm A-190E gun, the main gun on the P17 will very likely be a 76mm Super Rapid Gun Mount (SRGM) made under license from OTO Melara of Italy. In the air defence role, a combination of missiles and guns will be used. For medium range anti-air coverage, a single 3S-90 launcher mount for the Kashmir SAM system with 24 missiles is employed. The Kashmir SAM system fires the 9M38M1 missile or the improved 9M38M2 missile. The 9M38M1, which is also known as the SA-N-7 by NATO or Shtil in Russian Navy service, is a navalised SA-11. The 9M38M2, which is also known as the SA-N-12 by NATO, is a navalised SA-17. The 9M38M1 missile is reported to have a range of 3.5 to 25 km, while the 9M38M2 has a range of 32 km or more. For anti-ship missiles, the maximum engagement range is reduced to 10 to 12 km. About six targets can be simultaneously engaged. The Kashmir missile is soon becoming the standard medium-ranged SAM in the IN.

For the CIWS (Close In Weapon System) role, the Kashtan Air Defence Gun/Missile System, comprising two mounts, will be fitted. These mounts will be on either side of the helicopter hangar. In addition, separate AK-630 Gatling gun mounts may also be used. Some reports also indicate the Israeli-made, vertically-launched, Barak SAM system may be used. This, however, is to yet to be confirmed from reliable sources. As with the Talwar Class, long range strike weapons will be carried in eight vertical launch cells for the Klub-N ASCM or the PJ-10 BrahMos ASCM, currently under development at DRDO (India) and NPO Mashinostroyeniya (Russia). There are indications that the BrahMos is earmarked for the Project 15A Bangalore Class destroyers. For ASW, a single RBU-6000 launcher firing 90R missiles is employed. For launching torpedoes, either the Russian DTA-53-956 torpedo launchers or an Indian system would be used. Given the flexibility of the Klub system, it is entirely possible that 91RE2 ASW missile may be employed for anti-submarine operations. Two Naval HAL Dhruv or Sea King Mk.42B helicopters will be embarked for ASW and ASuW duties.

[uzairahmed]

.

Pakistan Airforce needs acquire high tech anti warship capability with long range air launched supersonic like C-803 that can neutralize the threat of ever increasing IN . Unluckily PAF is in even worse state than PN. US has agreed that warships are helpless before this missile in defence. Although other chinese programmes like missiles Fl-3, Fl-8, Fl-9 have not been disclosed by china for secretive measure but C-803 is deployed and can be sold to pakistan.

PN needs stealth frigates and PAF needs planes .

[uzairahmed]

Chinese have not talked about their KH-91 supersonic missile which will arm their J-11 A/B indigenous fighter programme.
Americans put its range at more than 300 km at supersonic speed.

[uzairahmed]

YJ-12 SUPERSONIC CRUISE MISSILE THAT WILL ARM J-10A/C
J-11

VERSIONS

YJ-22
YJ-91

[uzairahmed]

CHINESE-RUSSIAN JOINT DEVELOPMENT

KH-59 MKE THAT ARMS CHINESE SU-30MK3 NEW VARIANT AND CAN ARM J-11 AS WELL AS CHINESE BOUGHT SU-27SMK.

[uzairahmed]

ANOTHER DF MISSILE DEVELOPED

THIS WILL ARM JH-7A.

[uzairahmed]

ANOTHER VIEW OF NEW ANTI SHIP SUPERSONIC MISSILE

[uzairahmed]

JH-7A

[uzairahmed]

Jh-7A can be good choice but again it is costly since it carries mostly israeli technology now made in China but still costly.

Cockpit.

[uzairahmed]

Pakistan`s cash bucket is limited to carry this thingi on board as well as J-10/11 versions.

[uzairahmed]

Chinese Stealth Frigate programme is well on track.

Their program Type-54 stealth Frigate will replace all their
other frigates.

[uzairahmed]

F16U FRIGATE was offered by CHina in 1997 but pakistan deemed it unaffordable .

[uzairahmed]

F22P frigate was offered in 2002 .

[uzairahmed]

C-803 SHOULD be on Pakistan`s shopping list

[uzairahmed]

China has developed another enhanced C-802A cruise missile that can be launched from air as well as FAC .

Like other modern cruise missiles it has with mid-course correction provided by shipborne helicopter via datalink.

[uzairahmed]

CHINA HAS offered pakistan a modern helicopter for its frigate programme .
Z-9C SHIPBORNE helicopter armed with KLC-1 SURFACE SEARCH RADAR advanced-technology radar for maritime surveillance and missile guidance.Thomson Sintra HS-12 dipping sonar and can carry two Whitehead A244/MK-46 Mod 1 torpedo.This variant could also provide datalink between ship and YJ-82/83 SSM for over-the-horizon attack. Z-9C cancarry C-701 TV guided short-range ASMs for attacking small warships.

[uzairahmed]

FRIGATES will also carry CY-1A ship launched anti submarine missile . After CY-1 original version plan was dropped.

[uzairahmed]

C-701 advanced TV guidance technology missile has many modes.

It can be used as stand off weapon . It has capability to neutralize land targets using advanced tv guidance and inertial guidance It also has anti ship capability . C-701 is expected to arm Fc-1 programme as well. C-701 versions are also under testing.

[uzairahmed]

This all the more increases importance of FC-1 programme which is expected to figure in PAF in large numbers.

[uzairahmed]

US has expressed concern over the fact that chinese may be giving air launched cruise missile capability to pakistanis in the Fc-1 programme .

[uzairahmed]

C-701 a closer look

[Gaf]

Originally posted by uzairahmed
YJ-12 SUPERSONIC CRUISE MISSILE THAT WILL ARM J-10A/C
J-11

VERSIONS

YJ-22
YJ-91

These puppies look very interesting and offer good longterm potential with its stealthy features... not sure if China would sell them to Pakistan!

[Gaf]

Originally posted by uzairahmed
US has expressed concern over the fact that chinese may be giving air launched cruise missile capability to pakistanis in the Fc-1 programme .

The americans should be more worried about the "Brahmos" being given the India, by the Russians !!!

[uzairahmed]

Fl-9 and other missiles have ranges between 500 and 600 kms.

Chinese are not to be compared any where .

They are goin for long range stuff. Pakistan cannot buy that unless pakistan spends REALLY lot of money.

[Sultan]

Uzair, thanks for info.

I am still quite baffled as to why the PN chose the Jiangwei II over stealthier frigates?? Im sure the PN could adapt to operating a larger size vessel than they usually are accustomed to. Unless of course it could be due to the cost factor. :( Although the PN could always acquire a stealth frigate in addition to the Jiangwei II cost permitting.



PS. Uzair, what sort of anti submarine missile does the PN possess, if any. Was just wondering how the Cy1a would hit its target i.e. can it only aquire its target if the sub surfaces or is it capable of hitting the sub even when its submerged.

[Usman S.]

Originally posted by uzairahmed
Fl-9 and other missiles have ranges between 500 and 600 kms.


You need to re-check your figures!

[uzairahmed]

Surface-Launched Hong Niao-1 Hong Niao-2 Hong Niao-3
Air-LaunchedChang Feng 1 ChangFeng2ChangFengChangFengJIA
Operational ? 1992 ? 1996 ?? 2005
Range 600 km 1,000 - 1,800 km 2,500 -3,000 km
Accuracy ? 15 meters ??? 5 meters
speed subsonic subsonic subsonic
length 6.4 meters ? ?
diameter ~0.5 m ? ?
wingspan 3 meters ? ?
total weight 1,400 kilograms ? ?
warhead weight 300-400 kg ? ?
yield ? 90 kt ? ?

Janes Defence Weekly

[uzairahmed]

Kanwa News> China's CATIC discloses the details of the FL series anti-ship missiles currently under development, including FL9, FL8 and FL3A. <Full story with 434 words>,

http://www.kanwa.com/free/2002/06/e0618b.htm


My chinese friend has full membership i will ask him for the full article and try to post the whole thingi about these long range missiles .

[Usman S.]

Uzair no country can export missiles exceeding 300 km in range under international law.

[uazim]

Originally posted by Usman Shabbir
Uzair no country can export missiles exceeding 300 km in range under international law.

There is no such international law. A missile control regime was adpoted by western countries including US to control the spread of ballistic missile. Later on China and some other countries voluteerily agree to adhere to it.

[uzairahmed]

Don`t know about other stuff . But last year someone posted an article on CMF that india had protested the news that china had offered Longbird submarine launched cruise missile to pakistan .
Although u r right about missile control regime since brahmos range is 280 km on the brochure circulated by russkies. lets see then.
On the brighter side its good to know pakistan has a powerful ally like china . A country which can develop a plane for pakistan use only can surely help in taking care of brahmos threat . But pakistan must do something about its economy its the key.

[Sardar Agha]

The MTCR has never stopped China or any other nation from supplying us with missiles. I wouldn't be surprised if those cruise missiles were found to be in our arsenal or were under negotiation right now, esp. in light of the Indian development/acquisition of the Brahmos.

The MTCR, btw, deals primarily with missiles that can carry a payload of 500kg at a range 300 km.

[azeemchoudhary]

Jinnah naval base has provided flexibility of operations: General Aziz

KARACHI: Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, General Muhammad Aziz Khan on Saturday visited the operational fleet units and bases of Pakistan Navy in the coastal areas of Balochistan.

General Aziz, during his visit to Ormara, attended a briefing at PNS Ahsan, regarding the communication and monitoring capabilities of the Pakistan Navy.

Later, he visited Jinnah Naval Base Ormara and inspected various base facilities.

Speaking on the occasion, he said this second home of Pakistan Navy has opened many new strategic, operational and economic avenues, which will go a long way in achieving our maritime aims and objectives. He hoped Ormara would eventually develop into a proper and a well-planned town as well as a port complex, which will provide facilities, both for naval and commercial activity.

General Aziz, accompanied by Vice Admiral Muhammad Haroon, Chief of Staff, Pakistan Navy and Rear Admiral M A Tahir, Commander, Pakistan Fleet, spent the whole day on board a Pakistan Navy submarine and reviewed the performance of submarine squadron at high seas.

Addressing the officers and sailors, he said operating from the Jinnah Naval Base has provided the navy with the desired flexibility of operations and the level of deterrence to counter the threat posed to our maritime frontiers and assets.

He emphasised that operational readiness was the hallmark of a combat force and specially the current geo-political scenario of the region demands an ever-ready state of readiness of our armed forces.

He expressed his complete satisfaction over the operational and material readiness of the Pakistan Navy and appreciated the high morale, dedication and motivation of its officers and sailors.

He observed that through relentless hard work, training and devotion, they could meet all challenges to Pakistan's national security.

from Jang

[Usman S.]

Marines urged to get used to latest ammunition

KARACHI (April 29 2003) : Commander Pakistan Fleet, Rear Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir on Monday said, in the present situation when our neighbour is busy in getting more and more modern weapons, we carry the responsibility on our shoulders to get awareness of the best use of our military ammunition.

Addressing the 21st passing out parade of Pakistan Marines here he said, only the preparation of war before the war could guarantee the success.

He added, we should be prepared not only for war but also to help our countrymen in case of natural calamities.

The professional skills you showed during the recent past situation at the borders is highly regarded by the nation, he observed.

Earlier in the welcome address Commandant Pak Marines Captain M. A. Khan told the audience that in the initial phase of training the Pak marines are trained in use of small ammunition, swimming and judo karate.

Later they get the basic infantry training in Sindh Regimental Centre, Hyderabad.

During this training the marines complete infantry junior leadership course, drill course, unit PTI, para-course, desert warfare course, bomb disposal course and unit instructor course, after which they are officially passed out.

Rear admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir awarded the overall best performance trophy to Khalid Mahmood.

Senior officers of Pakistan Navy, sailors and relatives of passing out marines were present.-PPI

www.brecorder.com

[kamil]

1- How many Type-21 Frigates are equipped with Harpoon and which is type ( I heared of RGM-84 Block I-c )

2-- How many Type-21 are equipped with PHLANX CIWS ?

3-- What is the specification of SAM on few of the Type-21 Class Frigates ?

4-- How many Missiles can ATLANTIQE carry simultaneously ?

5-- Is AGosta equipped with Sub-Harpoon or just the Short-Range EXOCET ???

6-- The Sub-Harpoon in PN Inventory...any specifications???

7-- The AGM-HArpoon in PN inventory...specifications???

8-- What about the F-22P Frigate deal with China...in which stage is it ??

[Usman S.]

1. At least three with are fitted with 4 McDonnell Douglas Harpoon 1C's.

2. All are/or were believed to be fitted with one but at least one Type-21 Frigate is fitted with a different close-in weapon system.

3. LY-6N with a range of 13 km.

4. 2 AM-39 Exocet missiles or 72 acoustic buoys or 8 tarpedoes.

5. The Agosta-70's are equipped with Harppon but the newer Agotsa-90B's are equipped with Exocet.

6 & 7. For details just run a search on google.com for Harpoon.

8. NEGOTIATIONS

[kamil]

Nothing on net actually tells about the type of Harpoon in PN service !!!

I mean...whats the version ... as the Ship launched is I-c
I think the Air-Launched is AGM-84 "A" version but not sure about the Sub-Harpoon Version !!!

By the way...Block I-C is quite capable !!!

All the way thanks for ur information !!!

[Mohammed Ali]

The ship launched version of the Harpoon is deisgnated RGM, UGM for sub launched version and AGM for air launched. I think those designations are right. As for the As and Cs at the end, those represent block numbers or upgrades. Basically with every new block, the capabilities of the missile are increased in one form or another. That is why I have some doubts about PN having the 1C block Harpoons. Usman, are you certain that is the version onboard the Tariq class ships? It would seem unlikely that it is the case because we purchased AGM-84As in 1990 for the Orions, and the ship and sub launched versions have been in service longer.

[kamil]

Muhammad Ali...I think that RGM-84 Block I-C was bought with the Ships that Pakistan bought from America in 80s...but Pakistan put the RGM on Type-21 !!!

By the way...are not the Daphne and Agosta 70 both capable of Harpoon

[mustafa]

The Daphne's also carry sub Harpoons and P3 carries Air Lanched Harpoons.

[Rashid]

AOA

HARPOON(RGM-84D BLOCK 1C) PLATFORMS IN PN:

3 X TYPE-21
P-3C ORIONs
AGOSTA 70
DAPHNE

AM-39 PLATFORMS:

ATLANTIC
SEAKING
MIRAGE

AGOSTA 90 (SM-39)

LY- 60N RANGE IS 18 KMs

[kamil]

Why is it so PN not deployed Sub-Harpoon with Agosta 90-B as it has a range double than that of Exocet ???

And do u know which torpedo is Agosta using right now...

[Rashid]

AOA

Mr Kamil

In all the previous subs, PN did the modification for the Harpoons.
In 90B the french did and wanted to sell there SM-39. And it was the only option as US sanctions had stopped Harpoons.

[kamil]

But the US senctions are no more...so any Plan of equipping such High-Tech. subs with High-Tech weapons ???

[Rashid]

Kamil, I think you beileve a lot on news propaganda.
Although US announced removal of sanctions, but it was all a stunt, as we have not recieved any spares/weapons.
Our equipment which has been lying in the US/UK after overhauling has also not been returned.

So for us the sanctions are practically still on.
And new govt policy is no US/UK equipment. We have learnt the lesson the hard way, but we have.

[Maruf29]

http://www.dailystarnews.com/200305/05/n3050501.htm#BODY10

Maruf

[SyedA]

BN navy needs a submarine and i think like Pakistan did in 60s bought a vintage sub and learnt from it, BN should buy an old Daphne or Agosta, just one would be enough to learn how to operate a sub and maintaine it.

Once you get semi-self sufficient you can move further and buy Agosta-90Cs from Pakistan :) and build a credible naval force.

[Maruf29]

You are right in your observation, Syed. I think BN is thinking about the submarine option pretty seriously. Pakistan can be a safe source of weapon platform supplier for Bangladesh:)

Maruf

[Behjat]

Salaam,

Maruf, that is news to me. I think it's great BN is considering adding subs to its fleet. Where, BTW, did you get this info?

[H Khan]

Behjat sahib,

It is not Maruf read somewhere about BN acquiring subs but Syed idea. ;)

[kamil]

Originally posted by Rashid
Kamil, I think you beileve a lot on news propaganda.
Although US announced removal of sanctions, but it was all a stunt, as we have not recieved any spares/weapons.
Our equipment which has been lying in the US/UK after overhauling has also not been returned.

So for us the sanctions are practically still on.
And new govt policy is no US/UK equipment. We have learnt the lesson the hard way, but we have.

Sorry to say Mr. Rashid...it may hurt u...but we have not learnt any lesson...we are helping US/UK blindly with out any support from them...according ur own words...we are not getting any equippements from them...eveen the old ones...yet alone the new one... !!!

On the other hand...Americans aer helping India to increase there Defence which is against no one else than we our-selves !!!

We are having our eyes closed...and yeah I wanna tell u ...Its time to open them....or else the " Water can get up from our Heads " !!!

[Ahmed M]

Originally posted by Rashid
Kamil, I think you beileve a lot on news propaganda.
Although US announced removal of sanctions, but it was all a stunt, as we have not recieved any spares/weapons.
Our equipment which has been lying in the US/UK after overhauling has also not been returned.

So for us the sanctions are practically still on.
And new govt policy is no US/UK equipment. We have learnt the lesson the hard way, but we have.

This is pretty serious. If we are not even getting spares and even our own equipment is not being returned to us then what the hell are we U.S. allies for?? Whereas we continue to do everything for them. What the hell is our government upto?

[uazim]

Originally posted by Ahmed M


This is pretty serious. If we are not even getting spares and even our own equipment is not being returned to us then what the hell are we U.S. allies for?? Whereas we continue to do everything for them. What the hell is our government upto?

Some people on this board claim that they have information from sources that we have received the spare parts etc, now a person from PN is claiming that we have not. I tend to believe PN guy than other second hand information providers. Now it is time for these people to substantiate their claim. It is very confusing issue.

[Aziz]

Uazim I whole heartedly agree with you, it is becoming irritating that people continue to claim that they have heard from 'sources' that PAF will be acquiring this or PN will be upgrading that.

I think its time that people either substantiate these claims or wait for official announcements.

Aziz

[Maruf29]

Maruf, that is news to me. I think it's great BN is considering adding subs to its fleet. Where, BTW, did you get this info?

Behjat, Read my post in the previous page where I gave a link from Daily star news paper. There the PM of Bangladesh said she wanted to make BN as a 3 dimensional navy. A navy can be 3 dimensional only when it acquires underwater capability.

A few months back I also posted a news from a news daily where the PM expressed her desire to build a 3 dimensional navy with underwater capability.

Maruf

[Usman S.]

Regarding the spare-parts: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?art_ID=22586177 It is still a work 'in progress'!

[Maruf29]

http://rand.org/publications/MR/MR1119/MR1119.appa.pdf

This report shows that Bangladesh acquired a Romeo class submarine way back in 1984, may be for training purpose.

Maruf

[SSAAD]

Originally posted by Usman Shabbir
Regarding the spare-parts: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?art_ID=22586177 It is still a work 'in progress'!

Usman, It seems like a list that was printed in JANE'S recently (and I think posted by Uzair) was fairly accurate.

ToI in the above report also states that "Pakistan President General Pervez Musharraf is now also pressing for big-ticket items such as more F-16 aircraft, heavy artillery and Cobra attack helicopters,"

I think the list that I am referring to had the M110, M109 SP artillery, Cobra gunships as well as a request for F-18s (Super Hornets).

Obviously the delivery is subject to US approval however its interesting to note that the list of equipment in these two sources agree to some extent.

thoughts??

[zeeshan]

Pakistan, UK discuss cooperation in naval defence

ISLAMABAD: Permanent Undersecretary of Britain Sir Kevin Tebbit and head of the Overseas Secretariat Stephen Pollard met Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Shahid Karimullah here at the Naval Headquarters on Thursday.

According to the press release, issued after the talks, matters relating to professional interests and cooperation in the fields of naval and maritime defence came under discussion. Various possibilities for further strengthening the existing ties between the two navies, especially in the field of naval hardware were also explored.

Both sides appreciated the idea of Pak-UK defence cooperation forum, and hoped that the forum would go a long way in furthering the longstanding ties between the two naval forces. Tebbit, leading an 11-member delegation of the UK, is presently on an official visit here in connection with the fifth two-day Pak-UK defence cooperation forum.

[Behjat]

Salaam,

The recent reports about US & UK equipment & cooperation appear in stark contrast with Rashid's report that PN is against acquisitions from them d/t non-reliability of supply and spares.

What the truth is, Allah knows but I sure do hope that we've learned our lessons and what Rashid says is true.

[Hasib]

May be Pakistan could discuss purchasing & possibly license production of Corvettes design & built by Vosper Thornycroft (UK) Ltd of Southampton. They had supplied two 83m corvettes, Qahir Al Amwaj and Al Mua'zzar, to Oman. They weigh 1,450 tonnes fully loaded and pack a mean punch.

For more information read the following;Qahir Class Corvettes (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/oman/index.html)

Hasib

[Sultan]

It looks as if Hoon is trying to off load those type 22s (?) and second hand Lynx on us. I sincerely hope the PN does not sign a deal for those rust buckets and stick with the Chinese, French and Ukrainians in naval developments. As a result of the continuing Hawk fiasco Hoon probably needs to a find a new customer in the subcontinent. Anyway it'll teach the brits for placing sanctions on us!!

Hasib I dont see the point in diverting resources for the corvettes (not that the brits will ever allow the sale) when planned acquisition of multirole (ASW/AD/AShup) frigates coupled with a momentum in FACs developments would pretty much negate the need for a corvette. I could be wrong though.... The only advantage I can see the corvette has over the frigate is the increased speed and over the FAC extended range. But does the PN really need them??

[SyedA]

I would agree here, we dont need to do any business with UK especially with their past record. We have enough talent in the market such as France, Ukraine, China, Italy etc..... who put sanctions when the time comes.


I think F-22P has a lot of potential and it fulfills our need.

[saadahmed]

I believe that such talks are very important with the brits and not buying anything is even more important !

after all india has achieved quite a bit by engaging brits in never ending hawk & simialr deals !

[Gaf]

The "negiotations" should be about the UK returning equipment returned to the UK for servicing, but then NEVER retured back to Pakistan. It would be a good "acid" test of the relationship.

[Rashid]

AOA

I concur with Syed, that we should NOT go in any deal with the US or UK. The present CNS also is strong on this policy.

The F22Ps have a tremendous potential, believe me.
The spare support situation is as what I have already posted. We are not even recieving any SAR equipment spares.

[Mohammed Ali]

Rashid, does this mean that our operational capabilities have gone further down. Last year in Jan, only one of the Lynx was operational and some of the Sea Kings were not flying due to spare shortages. If what you say in accurate, then this means PNs fighting capability, including its ability to defend our territorial waters, has been down graded a significant bit. I should only be getting worse if more than an year has passed since. Can you shed more light on this since you are a flyer yourself. Thanks.

[Boota]

Originally posted by Mohammed Ali
Rashid, does this mean that our operational capabilities have gone further down. Last year in Jan, only one of the Lynx was operational and some of the Sea Kings were not flying due to spare shortages. If what you say in accurate, then this means PNs fighting capability, including its ability to defend our territorial waters, has been down graded a significant bit. I should only be getting worse if more than an year has passed since. Can you shed more light on this since you are a flyer yourself. Thanks.


M. Ali,

First of all you are asking for ristricted information, and if Rashid has any sense, he won't respond.

Secondly, operational capabilities are relative to the ability to defend the country from the enemy. If one goes by the outcome of the recent stand-off with India, our capabilities, however inadequate they might have been, were enough to prevent India from initiating any action against us. If you remember their Navy was the first service to pull out because they simply did not have the ability to stay in open seas during the Monsoon. They were vulnerable to our subs who were sitting pretty in calm under the water. When they started the stand-off very few of their subs were operational.