CIA's George Tannet in Pakistan.

[Malghani]

I heard this while I went home for my lunch break and turned on the Foxnews channel. Their correspondent from Islamabad was reporting that George Tennet (Tannet) is in Pakistan for a couple of days.
Since his trip hasn't gotten much media attention. What do you folks think is happening. This is actually strange because, When George Tennet arrived in Islamabad, Iran's Foreing Minister was also in Islamabad. I don't think its wise on my part to speculate on anything that's going on between the three countries without more facts. But folks lets hear what conspiracies you've got. Facts wouldn't be that harmful either :)

I also heard in the same broadcast one of the Foxnewx advisers say that he is sure that Osama has left Afghanistan. He was asked if his remarks were just a hunch or there was some credibility behind, his reply, "I never go off on a hunch."

The Foxnews adviser is a former green baret, his name skips my mind. But for the folks who have seen Foxnews, he is the one with the goat-tee with dark complexion.

[SyedA]

I can't recall his name either but have seen and heard his views... he is an idiot and talks macho talk. he was also suggesting that pakistan should have been on the terrorist state list since 90s.

Its amazing hos foxnews finds these experts... they come dime a a dozen.

[Saad Hasan]

Damage repair after Mazar-e-sharif debacle...

[SyedA]

not damage repair but,

1. trying to figure out how to counter Russian/NA/Iran move
2. working with ISI to find OBL and reorganizing ISI according to CIA/US wishes.

[Behjat]

Salaam,

Syed, I don't know much about #1, but I totally agree with #2.

Musharraf has already eliminated the most potent Islamic 'threats' from the army. The red carpet is now being shampood for Pakistan's army elite to resonate AGAIN the wishes of US military powers-to-be.

[ROMMEL]

Dear Behjat,

Though I never participate in political or religious discussions but I have to ask you that how did you conclude that " Musharraf has already eliminated the most potent Islamic 'threats' from the army".

Cheers,

[Malghani]

Rommel good question,
How is it that one of the greatest Islamic army standing has itself eliminated the strongest Islamic "threat".

And threat to whome, the west. You must be joking right. Other than our 50 or so tac-nukes. What other threat did we pose for the western coalition anyway. Please allaborate.

I really am getting sick of the the hawkish comments by folks and then the same folks hiding themselves behind the nuclear factor. Either justify your hawkish remarks by providing facts, or please refrain from them all together.

[Malghani]

Isn't it amazing that there has been no news with regard to the CIA visit.

[Behjat]

salaam,

I was referring to Musharraf having removed two of his top generals that were quite religious (Gen. Usmani and another) and, therefore, exuded the threat of a weak army brass against any crackdown to contain extremists' if the local reaction against the government had gotten strong.

Khurram, yaar, calm down. Your post manifests a I-wanna-pick-a-fight-with-you attitude. If you read my first post carefully, I had even put the word threats in quotes to be sarcastic. Additioanally, I never said I agreed with that decision of PM, rather agreed with Syed who described submission of our elites/ISI to the wills and wishes of CIA.

I really am getting sick of the the hawkish comments by folks and then the same folks hiding themselves behind the nuclear factor. Either justify your hawkish remarks by providing facts, or please refrain from them all together.

I hope you're not talking about me. I've never been hawkish, never hid behind nukes and have already given an explanation of what I stated (which would have been obvious if you read it properly or simply asked for an explanation). I will not refrain from 'them all together' simply because you don't take them in the proper context. After all, ROMMEL was stately in his questioning and genuine in his curiosity.

[Malghani]

Dr. Behjat,
Sorry Yaar if I gave you this impression of picking a fight. Although I must confess I was looking for some sort of friendly polarised discussion. But that would be an oxymoron right?

Anyway, I must say that your first post was confusing to me. Quotations certainly don't mean that you were being sarcastic about the "threat". On the other hand I thought you put that word in quotation because you were reffering to something you had heard. So in that case I was right in asking for explanation of why the (two Generals were an) Islamic "threat".
The generals at the most are a threat in the region. But globally they are not worth the dirt they walk on. The most they could've done was to threaten the (what?) 5th fleet that is carrying out operations from Arabian sea, and Israel. Leaving America intact. And guess what, if they were stupid enough to do something to America regionally, then they would've been a bigger threat to Pakistan's existence instead of being Islamic assets.

So what I say is that, instead of Musharraf nuetraling an Islamic "threat" within our army. He actually nuetralized a "threat" to Islam that was eminating from within our Army.

[Behjat]

salaam,

Khurram, chalo yaar, kaha suna maaf.

[ROMMEL]

Originally posted by Behjat
I was referring to Musharraf having removed two of his top generals that were quite religious (Gen. Usmani and another) and, therefore, exuded the threat of a weak army brass against any crackdown to contain extremists' if the local reaction against the government had gotten strong.


Dear Behjat,

When Gen. Pervez promoted two Lt. Gens to the rank of 4 stars and superceded two others, there has been so much talk regarding the Gen. getting rid of the Islamist elements of the Army and bringing forth a more liberal leadership. If you allow me to speak your mind, I can assure you that there can be nothing further from the truth.

How, you are going to ask now. And let me explain.

Lets start with the question that whether there was a need of giving promotions and giving promotion to two not one general. The answer is yes! For the last 7 - 8 months General musharraf had been hinting not so subtly that he would be promoting two general to look after the affairs of the army as he is tied up with running the affairs of the country. In the beginning it was Lt. Gen. Yusaf as the CGS who was giving the task of looking after the affairs of the army and advise beyond his capacity as CGS to Gen. Musharraf regarding mily. affairs. However, in July Lt. Gen. Usmani was made the DCOAS probably because the burden of work on CGA proved to be too much. Gen. Usmani had the whole army under him EXCEPT CGS (Gen. Yusaf) who as the head of MI (Military Intelligence), MO (Military Operations) and the SSG reported directory to the Army chief. Gen. Pervez would have been retiring on the 7th of October and there were rumors that he will be giving himself an extension and will be promoting one or two Lt. generals to be VCOAS and CJCSC. That is exactly what he did. The promotions have nothing to do with the American attacks, everyone knew that on 7th October Gen. Musharraf would have retired and it will be on this date that he will announce the VCOAS and CJCSC.

Now the question that whether a separate general was required as CJCSC or not. This is an open debate and I would like to talk about it in another thread because this is not really relevant here.

Now that we have two generals as VCOAS and CJCSC. Here the VCOAS is all powerful. He is for all practical purposes the head of Pakistan Army. His job is not to assist the COAS to run the army, rather it to run the army himself and report it to the COAS. He is the main link between COAS and the rest of the army. If Gen. Pervez was to leave the post of COAS within the next 3 years, Gen. Yusaf will automatically become the COAS. About the trust that Gen. Pervez has in his new VCOAS, I am not sure how many of you know that it was not Gen. Pervez but Gen. Yusaf (as CGS) who headed the all-so-very-crucial meeting with the US CENTCOM Chief regarding what facilities and help will Pakistan give to the coalition in this US attack on Afghanistan.

Now coming to the notion that Gen. Pervez has gotten rid of Islamist elements in the army and in their place put liberal and secular people. I take strong exception to this statement too. That is why I asked you behjat sahab that how do you feel that the president has gotten rid of the Islamic threat? The word here is Islamic. What everyone seems to be implying is that out of the Four Generals (Yusaf, Usmani, Aziz and Mahmud) Usmani and Mahmud were Islamic and religiously motivated and Yusaf and Aziz were not. Well, I can understand how dies one arrive at this conclusion? It is rumored that General Usmani had links with the Jamaat-e-Islami. Does that make him religious and the rest secular??? As far as General Mahmud is concerned, he was never known to be any more religious than an average officer in the Pakistan Army is (Yusaf and Aziz included). Now coming to the personalities of the two promoted generals. I will not talk about Gen. Aziz as his position as CJCSC is a ceremonial one. But as far as general yusaf is concerned I dont think that one get much religious that that. Though I take religion as a matter between the person and his god, still i am surprized people that this new command is liberal and secular in nature??? Ask the people that have worked with Gen. Yusaf and they will tell you about him. Ask the people in the army and they will tell you about him. Yaar, he is know to be a extremely capable (from his service record), very simple, dead honest and religious.

He has been the GOC I Armored Div and Commander 2 Corps (both in Multan). That place is the home of armor. A lot of my friends have served under him. Let me tell you what is said about him:

During his tenure as GOC 1 Armd Div, one of my friends (a Lt. at that time) was posted in 11FF. There is a norm in Pakistan that whenever there is an inauguration of anything or a stone laying ceremony someone unveils a plaque that has the name of the person doing the unveiling. Now there was an opening of something in Multan and Gen. Yusaf was the chief guest. When the time came to unveil the plaque and the general was asked to do it, he showed his displeasure at that thing. I was told that he said that why should his name be put on the plaque as neither he made it nor he gave the money to make it. At that time he said that he does not like to do this and till he is here, no such practices should be followed. Same was followed when he was the corps commander. He is the only general in the Pakistan army whose name is not borne by any plaque anywhere. It says a lot about his character. Everyone who has served with him says similar things about his character. Religiously, he is known to be a believer and follower. He neither drinks nor is known to be a womanizer even during his junior officer days. His family is also known to be simple and not modern.

In the end, I would like to say that the qualities that matter are capability and character. Pakistan Army needs a commander to lead the army in the 21st century and not a maulvi to lead the juma prayer (Though I guess Gen. Yusaf can do that too :cool: )

Cheers,

[H Khan]

Rommel,

Excellent description and explanation of the promotion process of PA.

I have told certain people about the retirement process in the PA or in general Pakistan's armed forces but I was not anywhere near and clear in detailed as you have laid down.

The problem with our media (including BB) and worst the western media is that when they see someone who either has a beard or performs salat regularly they brand them as backward or an anti-civilization.

[ali]

What is an "islamic threat" that we being posed allegedly by Gen. Usmani & Gen. Khaid Mehmood?

And can you please elaborate on that absurd notion also?

And by the way, is there a "secular threat" also?

Is praying tahajjud and five times makes you an "islamic threat"?

Just for info, when Muslims captured Persia, Saad bin Abi Waqas, who replaced Khalid Bin Walid through the orders of Hazrat Umar as the command of the Muslims Army, he asked his army a single questions, "Does anyone of you has ever missed a farz namaaz or sunnat-e-muakida"? Not one of the soldier came forward. And to this he said, "we have already won half of the war"

They put their horses in the river that divided them and the persians, and the historians say when they came out, the hooves of the horses were not even wet. Persia was captured without a fight, since they left everything saying that dragons have come.

Allah Ta'ala has put the pre-requisities of win for Muslims in the a'amal (deeds) and piety of Muslims, not in latest warfare. Quran says this, and history proves it (for those who need proof).

Hazrat Umar said to one of his Governors, more or less, "be careful about sins just like you are careful about your enemies, for Allah has put our victory in our character and iman. If we dont have iman, our enemies will be victorious on us, since they are always larger then us in numbers".

Jazakallah

Ali

[ROMMEL]

You know ali, I can tell you stories of Rajput warriors that are as enchanting and enticing as the stories of the muslim warriors. They were hindus and they had no help of Allah but still they fought with valor and despite being small in number and defeated their enemies (which were muslims at times too). Then if you read american civil war, you are going to come across battles where poorly armed and fed confederates beat the crap out of republicans who were superior in training and better armed.

Ali, just becuase we are muslims does not guarentee us a victory. During the crusades, there were time when the muslim armies faced humiliating defeats, and then there were glorifying victories as well. So, mashallah we all have out faith on the WILL of Allah be their to help and guide us. But that should never lead us into complacency.

Cheers,

[ali]

What Allah Ta'ala wills regarding non-muslims was neither what I am talking about, nor was it the point of discussion.

My point was regarding Muslims alone. And for that, I never said that being Muslim alone is a cause for victory. On that contrary, I was stating some fact and quotes as to the pre-requisites required by Muslims to get the help of Allah Ta'ala.

Its not the faith that "leads us into complacency" but its the lack of it. My point was regarding the mention of removal of "islamic threats".

We have pledged our allegiance to Islam, and that alone bear enourmous rights on us, and specially on the command in chief of our army.

Bowing to the foreign factors in removing such dedicated soldiers is just as equivalent of what Mir Jafer did to Tipu Sultan.

- Ali

[Behjat]

Salaam,

ROMMEL, thank you for your information. I had no idea that such a proposal of change/shuffle in the high command was imminent and preplanned. The way the media read it, though, was highly suspect--still may be.

But my family knows Gen. Usmani and can tell you that he was easily considered the 'most islamic' by the top brass. Since I don't know him directly nor have I ever met him, I don't have direct knowledge of his thoughts on the reshuffle. I am trying to get info, however, just to get his version. Knowing him to be a man of principle, though, he might be tight-lipped even if the decision was unfair to him.

Allah knows best.

[SyedA]

CIA Chief Urges Pakistan to Take Harder Line on Muslim Militants
Douglas Frantz New York Times Service


ISLAMABAD, Pakistan George Tenet, director of the Central Intelligence Agency, urged the president of Pakistan in a weekend meeting to go further in cracking down on militant clerics and other extremists, government officials said Monday.
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The American push against pro-Taliban elements inside Pakistan comes at a time when President Pervez Musharraf appears to have gained new confidence in his ability to restrain the country's outspoken clerics and religious parties, who have failed to ignite anything approaching widespread outrage over Pakistan's assistance to the U.S.-$ led coalition.
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The request to increase the pressure was delivered by Mr. Tenet during a two-day visit to Islamabad in which he also outlined aspects of the next phase of the war in Afghanistan in meetings with General Musharraf and top officers of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency.
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The CIA director said that the United States planned to send more intelligence operatives into southern Afghanistan, and he sought tactical assistance for an assault on a mountain base in eastern Afghanistan where Osama bin Laden is suspected to be hiding, according to the government officials, who spoke on condition that their names not be used.
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U.S. officials confirmed that Mr. Tenet visited Pakistan and met with Mr. Musharraf and intelligence officials. They declined, however, to provide any information about the topics that were discussed.
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But other officials said privately that the talks were the strongest attempt to date by the CIA director and his team to push Pakistan to rein in religious extremists and monitor activities of pro-Taliban elements outside and inside the Pakistani government.
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U.S. officials have expressed concerns in recent weeks not only about militant clerics, but also about the possibility of widespread pro-Taliban sentiments within the Pakistani military and intelligence service.
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A number of specific individuals, mostly from Pakistan's militant religious parties, were identified and discussed, the officials said. They stressed that Pakistani intelligence officials were still formulating plans to step up surveillance on a range of people and that no decision had been made on arrests.
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Mr. Tenet may have been pushing on an open door. General Musharraf instructed his security chiefs last week to come up with plans to curb religious militancy. Among the steps being considered by the military government are restrictions on recruitment of volunteers to fight in Afghanistan and a ban on military training for students in Pakistan's thousands of religious schools, according to the Pakistani press and government officials.
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Thousands of Pakistani men were sent by the religious schools and parties to fight alongside the Taliban in recent years as the radical militia battled for control of Afghanistan and later for survival against the U.S.-led coalition and the Northern Alliance.
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Pakistan's apparent receptiveness to Mr. Tenet's message and its independent steps toward controlling dissent underscore how the political landscape has changed since General Musharraf first aligned his country with the American-led coalition against his former allies, the Taliban.
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In his first television address to the nation in mid-September, the Pakistani leader devoted most of his time to trying to allay the anticipated anger toward turning against the radical militia next door. He stressed that he had acted to protect Pakistan's security, including its nuclear weapons stockpile, which he referred to as strategic assets.
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But the anticipated widespread protests and potential instability did not materialize. The militant religious parties proved unable to provoke widespread public outrage and even the muted anti-American and anti-Musharraf demonstrations have fizzled to almost nothing in recent weeks.
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As a result, General Musharraf has taken several steps to align Pakistan more closely with the U.S.-led coalition, and he has responded positively to numerous American demands in recent weeks.
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The Pakistani government shut down the Taliban's embassy in Islamabad, the militia's last foreign outpost, after American pressure. General Musharraf also indicated a willingness last week to negotiate with the Northern Alliance, which has been anathema to Islamabad for a decade. In addition, Pakistan has been quietly expanding the use of three isolated military bases by U.S. special operations forces. CIA officials told their Pakistani counterparts over the weekend that they will need more help on the ground in the coming weeks.
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One of the most pressing requests was for more information about the former mujahidin base in the mountainous Tora Bora region of eastern Afghanistan where some people think Mr. bin Laden may be hiding.
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A senior Pakistani official briefed on the talks said that the Americans wanted help in formulating plans to block exits from the remote region and information about how to reach the maze of elaborate caves and tunnels that may be the suspected terrorist leader's last refuge.
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Providing assistance to the CIA underscores Pakistan's determination to cast its lot with the coalition, but it has not eased all of the suspicions about the Pakistani military and intelligence community among the Americans. Substantial elements of that community are known to remain strongly pro-Taliban and to resent Pakistan's growing alliance with the United States.

________________________________________

this was the reason of his visit

[hassany]

I am fasting, but after reading the above article and mr.tenet's wish list, i would like to say politely, mr.tenet, please go **** yourself.

[Saad Hasan]

Pakistan should demand major quid-pro-quo on the part of US before it should yield to any further request of cooperation with US. Otherwise, US forces should pack their backs and leave. When Pakistan signed up with the US as a frontline state to fight communism in the early eighties, we were given $5.7 bn in todays value and the amount we have recieved this time around dwarfs in comparison. Therefore, as suggested we have lost more then we have gained through this hasty decision of helping US...

[SyedA]

CIA seeks Musharraf help on Tora Bora operation

ISLAMABAD: The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has sought tactical assistance from Pakistan for an assault on a mountain base of Osama bin Laden in eastern Afghanistan, the New York Times said in a report published on Tuesday.

The paper, quoting government officials, said George J Tenet, the Director, CIA, on a weekend visit to the Pakistan capital, sought assistance for assault on a base in eastern Afghanistan, where Osama bin Laden is suspected of hiding. Tenet also said the United States planned to send more intelligence operatives into southern Afghanistan, the officials said, and urged the president of Pakistan to go further in cracking down on militant clerics and other extremists.

The American officials confirmed on Tuesday that Tenet had visited Pakistan and met President General Pervez Musharraf and intelligence officials. They declined to provide any information about the topics that were discussed. "But other officials said privately that the talks were the strongest attempt to date by the CIA chief and his team to push Pakistan to rein in religious extremists and monitor activities of pro-Taliban elements inside and outside Pakistan government," the report said.

In the meetings with General Musharraf and top officers of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Tenet outlined aspects of the next phase of the war in Afghanistan. The CIA officials told their Pakistani counterparts that they would need more help on the ground in the coming weeks. "One of the most pressing requests was for more information about the base formerly used by the anti-Soviet Mujahideen in Tora Bora region, where some people think bin Laden may be hiding," the report added.

A senior Pakistani official told the paper that the Americans wanted help in formulating plans to block exits from the remote region and information about how to reach the maze of elaborate caves and tunnels that may be bin Laden's last refuge.

The report did not say what the Pakistani response was to that particular request, but quoted officials as saying, the Pakistanis had been generally helpful to the alliance in providing that sort of assistance when requested. "Lt-Gen Ehsanul Haq, the Director-General of the ISI, who is respected by the American intelligence officials, appears willing to cooperate with them," officials said.

The officials said Tenet and members of his team had also described plans to expand the covert war in southern Afghanistan by increasing the number of operatives working there. "They are expected to stage a variety of missions aimed at helping track down members of al-Qaeda and providing more money to buy the loyalty of anti-Taliban forces and secure defections from Taliban commanders," the officials said.

Tenet left Islamabad on Saturday and flew to Germany, where he boarded the plane that carried the body of Johnny Michael Spann, the CIA officer killed last week in a prison revolt in Mazar-i-Sharif.-Courtesy New York Times