Defense Cooperation & Sales II

[SyedA]

Here is the second part

[Shaan]

Could this be the beginning of something or is it just a one time deal? These are actually more helicopters than we're getting from the US (7 blackhawks was it?)

Pakistan gets four Russian helicopters, four more due

By Tariq Butt

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan received four military helicopters from the Russian Federation last week while four more are arriving in a week or so, an
official told The News on Monday.

He said it showed the warming up of relations between Pakistan and Russia after President General Pervez Musharraf's meeting with his
Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin, in Almaty, Kazakhstan.

President Musharraf had expressed his willingness to pay a visit to Russia on Putin's invitation that was also extended to Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee, the official said. He said that the dates of the president's visit to Moscow were being finalised through diplomatic channels and that the visit was expected to take place in a month or so.

After his initiative of inviting Musharraf and Vajpayee to meet the two leaders on the sidelines of a regional conference in Almaty to de-escalate
the Pakistan-India tension, Putin had extended invitations to both the leaders to visit Moscow with the same spirit.

However, India is lukewarm to Putin's invitation due to its traditional rejection of third party involvement in the Kashmir issue while at the
same time New Delhi has not only accepted but also welcomed the role of the US and several other countries in defusing the lingering tensions
with Pakistan. Officials see a major breakthrough in the Pakistan-Russia relations in the wake of President Musharraf's visit to Moscow.

[Usman Shabbir]

BTW old thread is here: http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1159

[Shaan]

Check out this excerpt from a recent Stratfor.com article about Iraqi arms acquisitions:

"Unable to get new air-defense missiles, Iraq is trying hard to buy new radars, mainly the Ukraine-made Kolchuga radar. This middle-range radar is probably the best of its kind, compact enough to be hidden in a jeep and able to locate virtually any target in air and at sea at a range of 60 miles even if it has stealth technology protection. It can also be located only by satellite intelligence."

Has at any time during Pakistan's arms deals with the Ukraine has Pakistan acquired any of these radars? Does Pakistan have a need for these radars in the first place? I would figure that we'd love to get our hands on one of these, no?

[Noman]

Originally posted by Shaan
Check out this excerpt from a recent Stratfor.com article about Iraqi arms acquisitions:

"Unable to get new air-defense missiles, Iraq is trying hard to buy new radars, mainly the Ukraine-made Kolchuga radar. This middle-range radar is probably the best of its kind, compact enough to be hidden in a jeep and able to locate virtually any target in air and at sea at a range of 60 miles even if it has stealth technology protection. It can also be located only by satellite intelligence."

Has at any time during Pakistan's arms deals with the Ukraine has Pakistan acquired any of these radars? Does Pakistan have a need for these radars in the first place? I would figure that we'd love to get our hands on one of these, no?

According to reports, it has a range upto 800Km against air targets. It is a passive, bi-static radar, so cannot be detected and cannot be targeted with Anti Radiation Missiles. Ukraine sold a 4 radar set to Iraq for a $100Million, but if it does what it advertises, then it should be worth the price.

[M Ahmed]

Salam,

Why does Pakistan Army not acquire/procure or manufacture SP Artillery systems especially the South African G6 Howitzer or Chinese SP systems that were bought by Kuwait over US and other European Systems? Or a TOT from China can be an added force multiplyer that will enhance battlefield firepower for the Pakistan Army in additon to 300 mm MLRS. This is all the more urgent because the Indian Army is about to acquire advanced American Counter Battery/WL Radars that will offset the advantage of Pakistan Artillery.

Also how well are Pakistan's EW capabilites vis-a-vis India in the wake of unconfirmed reports from the days of Kargil that India had jammed Pakistani air defense radars.


regards.

[Murad]

Originally posted by mansoor ahmed
Salam,

Why does Pakistan Army not acquire/procure or manufacture SP Artillery systems especially the South African G6 Howitzer or Chinese SP systems that were bought by Kuwait over US and other European Systems? Or a TOT from China can be an added force multiplyer that will enhance battlefield firepower for the Pakistan Army in additon to 300 mm MLRS. This is all the more urgent because the Indian Army is about to acquire advanced American Counter Battery/WL Radars that will offset the advantage of Pakistan Artillery.

regards.


Acquiring additional SP units will be a big boost for our artillery. However, does anyone know if Pak army looking to make such acquisitions at this time or how high is it on the list of their priorities?

Pakistan army's SP artillery choices are a little tricky. All choices have some pros and cons. Of the systems discussed in this thread, the G-6 is known to be a very capable weapon system, it might be too expensive for us. The chinese PLZ-45 is similar in design and layout to the M-109. It's reported capabilties seem at least as good as the M-109A6 paladin and we'd be buying it from a dependable supplier. But the down side is that then we'll have two different 155mm SP artillery systems in service and also so far Kuwait is the only user at this time(PLA hasn't bought it as yet). Another option may be to upgrade our existing M-109A2 to the Paladin standard and buy addtional units of Paldin as well. Since we already operate M-109 it may be an attractive otpion. But this means buying a significant weapon system from the US, and unless we have the capability to maintain it without having to buy large number of spare parts from the utterly unreliable US, it may be very unwise.

[zeeshan]

nice pic:


www.paknews.com

[H Khan]

.c Kyodo News Service

ISLAMABAD, July 23 (Kyodo) - Gen. Tommy Franks, head of the U.S. Central Command (CENTCOM), will arrive here Monday for talks on matters relating to Pakistan's cooperation in the international fight against terrorism and flushing out remnants of al-Qaida and Taliban fighters, a Defense Ministry spokesman said Sunday.

Maj. Gen. Rashid Qureshi told Kyodo News that the U.S. commander would hold detailed talks with Gen. Mohammad Aziz, chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff Committee, and call on President Pervez Musharraf during his stay in Islamabad.

The talks would focus on matters relating to the international fight against terrorism and the war in Afghanistan, where operations are still continuing against pockets of al-Qaida and Taliban fighters, the spokesman said.

Qureshi made it clear that the question of tensions between Pakistan and India would not be discussed with Gen. Franks as ''CENTCOM has nothing to do with India.''


06/23/02 03:23 EDT

[H Khan]

The Egyptian and Pakistani governments reportedly agreed in November 2000 on a major bilateral defense trade agreement which involved the refurbishment of Egyptian Air Force (EAF) aircraft in Pakistan in exchange for the supply of Egyptian F-16A/B spare parts to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The deal, which had been in preparation for some time, was reportedly finalized by Pakistan Chief Executive Gen. Pervez Musharraf and senior Egyptian officials at the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) summit in Doha on November 13-14, 2000. What was agreed, reportedly, included:


1-The provision by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra, near Islamabad, of major overhauls and upgrades of some or all of the airframes and engines of the EAF's 13 Dassault Mirage 5 E2 tactical fighters; appr. 45 Dassault Mirage 5 SDE tactical fighters; less than 6 Dassault Mirage 5SDR tactical reconnaissance aircraft; and 5 Dassault Mirage 5 SDD operational trainers at the Mirage Rebuild Facility, which is part of PAC;


2-The provision by PAC of major overhauls and upgrades of some or all of the airframes and engines of the EAF's appr. 45 Chengdu F-7B Fishbed tactical fighters at the F-6 Rebuild Facility, part of PAC. [Although called the F-6 Rebuild Facility, it undertakes major work on A-5, F-6 and F-7 types.] As well, similar work would be undertaken on some or all of the EAF's appr. 400 Mikoyan MiG-21PFS, MiG-21PFM and MiG-21MF Fishbed tactical fighters; appr. 10 Mikoyan MiG-21R Fishbed tactical reconnaissance aircraft; and appr.12 Mikoyan MiG-21UM/US Mongol operational trainers; as well as appr. 50 Shenyang F-6 Farmer tactical fighters; 5 Shenyang FT-6 Farmer operational trainers.


3-The provision by Pakistan Ordnance Factories, at Wah Cantonment, near Islamabad, of a range of ordnance and munitions for the Egyptian Armed Forces;


4-Other as-yet unidentified goods and services to be provided by Pakistan to the Egyptian Armed Forces;


5-Provision by Egypt of spare parts for the PAF's appr. 35 F-16A/B fighters.


6-Egyptian Air Force (EAF) (Al Quwwat al Jawwiya il Misriya) sources indicated in January 2001 that the EAF was to acquire a significant quantity of Karakorum K-8 advanced jet trainer/light strike aircraft from Pakistan, basically to replace its appr. 25 Dassault-Breguet/Dornier Alpha Jet MS1 advanced trainers and appr. 12 Dassault-Breguet/Dornier Alpha Jet MS2 light attack aircraft

[Murad]

Originally posted by H Khan
The Egyptian and Pakistani governments reportedly agreed in November 2000 on a major bilateral defense trade agreement. aircraft

Interesting info, which raises some questions. Do we have the spare capacity at PAC to overhaul such a large number of aircraft. A couple of years ago Egypt was looking at India for maintainance of it's MiG-21 fleet, I wonder what became of that. Also, how good a source would Egypt be for F-16 spares b/c they don't co-produce it like Turkey does and all such sales need to be approved by the US, are they not? (unless of course they are made in a clandestine way).

[MohammedA]

PAKISTANI EXPERT OPTIMISTIC ABOUT MILITARY-TECHNICAL COOPERATION WITH UKRAINE.


KYIV. June 26 (Interfax-Ukraine) - Pakistan considers Ukraine a promising partner for supplying military equipment.
Zakir Jaffer, head of Ahmed Jaffer and Company Ltd., a company that specializes in supplying the Pakistani army with weapons, confirmed Pakistan's commitment to expanding and exploring new options for cooperation with Ukraine.
"I believe that existing contacts are based on the two sides' understanding of the need to expand cooperation via joint production," he stressed.
Jaffer recalled successful deliveries of Ukrainian T-80UD tanks to Pakistan, and noted that these issues "require further work, including the possibility of joint production."
He added that today, Pakistan has sizeable resources and needs to modernize existing T-72, T-69 and U.S.-made tanks. Jaffer said this project "might help open up new prospects." He particularly stressed Ukraine's good chances to participate in the development of the Al-Khalid main battle tank for the Pakistani army.
For details, see the Interfax-Military News Agency newswire.
tm mg.
(c) Copyright 2002 Interfax Information Services, B.V. The leading provider of political, business and financial information from Europe and Asia with special emphasis on emerging markets.
London: +44-171-581-5550; Moscow: +7-095-251-4684; http://www.interfax.com.

[zeeshan]

Assalam oalaukum,


somebody needs to remind this guy that we dont have T-72s!

[uazim]

Originally posted by zeeshan
Assalam oalaukum,


somebody needs to remind this guy that we dont have T-72s!

May be he is an agent for both Pakistan and India :) Lot of people in defence business have very diverse clientele.

UA

[H Khan]

June 29, 2002;

While nobody (at least in the US) knows for sure how many nuclear weapons India and Pakistan has, conventional wisdom has given Indian an arsenal of about 50 and Pakistan struggling to push its stockpile beyond 20. But new information by a US intelligence agency puts the Pakistani total at no less than 25 and perhaps 50, while India's arsenal is between 20 and 30. What causes these discrepancies? It's all a guess put together from various bits of information. One data point is to estimate how many they could have built with the available industry. Another is to count storage facilities. Another theory is that Pakistan may be building smaller "tactical" weapons while India originally built larger strategic weapons and is now scrambling to design and build smaller tactical weapons. In the end, it does not matter much. Neither country has enough weapons to effectively destroy the other, making "mutual assured destruction" (which prevented a US-USSR war) something far less stable, perhaps "mutually assured major damage".




www.forecastinternational.com

[MohammedA]

ARMY OFFICIAL EMBARKS ON TOUR TO TURKEY, UAE.


Text of report by Radio Pakistan on 30 June

Gen Muhammad Yusuf Khan, the vice-chief of the army staff, today left for a week-long visit to Turkey and Dubai [UAE]. During his visit, he will hold talks with high-ranking officials of the armed forces of the two countries on professional and bilateral matters.

Source: Radio Pakistan, Islamabad, in Urdu 1400 gmt 30 Jun 02.
BBC Worldwide Monitoring/ (c) BBC 2002

[MohammedA]

MALAYSIAN ARMY MEDICAL MISSION.


QUETTA June 29 (PPI)-The Malaysian Army medical mission led by Lt Colonel Doctor Azlan Bin Muhammad Nor called on Corps Commander Lt General Abdul Qudir at Corps Headquarters Saturday. Lieutenant Colonel Ismail Bin Abdul Karim Malaysian Military Attache to Pakistan also accompanied the medical team. It was a courtesy visit by the military personnel of a brotherly country who had established a free medical camp at Chaman for externally displaced people of Afghanistan. The medical camp was set up six months back and comprised, besides allied facilities, a field hospital with surgical, medical and pathological specialties. The Malayesian Army medical mission treated about 12000 people and operated upon 150 patients at Roghani camp Chaman. The medical team in charge donated a portable X-Ray machine to the Pakistan Army which was received by the Corps Commander Lt General Abdul Quadir. He appreciated the medical services provided by the Malaysian Army to the sick Afghan children, women and aged persons. He also thanked the team in charge for donation of precious medical equipment to the Pakistan Army. The medical mission, having accomplished their task, is likely to leave for Malaysia within a weak.
(c) 2002 Asia Pulse Pte Limited.

[MohammedA]

TURKISH DEFENCE MINISTER MEETS PAKISTANI COMMANDER, STRESSES COOPERATION.


Text of report in English by Turkish news agency Anatolia

Ankara: National Defence Minister Sabahattin Cakmakoglu received on Monday [1 July] Pakistani Land Forces Commander General Mohammad Yusuf Khan.

Cakmakoglu, who stated that Gen Khan came to Turkey as guest of Land Forces Commander Gen Hilmi Ozkok, said that Turkey and Pakistan had rooted relations.

Cakmakoglu stated: "Turkey and Pakistan are the two countries which have supported each other during difficult times. Our policies which depend on mutual respect and confidence are improving continuously."

Cakmakoglu, who stated that Gen Khan would have a meeting on military issues with Gen Ozkok, said that he and Khan would take up the issues on mission zones between the two countries.

Khan said that he visited Turkey for the first time and thanked Ozkok for inviting him to Turkey.

Gen Khan, who stated that Turkey and Pakistan had very sound relations which depended on history, stressed the cooperation possibilities for the future benefits of the two countries.

Khan, who recalled that Turkey had took over the command of International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan, said that they, as Pakistani Land Forces, were ready to provide all kinds of support in that respect.

Source: Anatolia news agency, Ankara, in English 1419 gmt 1 Jul 02.
BBC Worldwide Monitoring/ (c) BBC 2002.

[RMS Azam]

Originally posted by uazim


May be he is an agent for both Pakistan and India :) Lot of people in defence business have very diverse clientele.

UA

This guy is no Asif Ali - the Pakistani arms dealer who brokered the Indian Mirage 2000 deal as well as arranged some of the second-hand PAF Mirage deals.

[Noman]

Originally posted by RMS Azam


This guy is no Asif Ali - the Pakistani arms dealer who brokered the Indian Mirage 2000 deal as well as arranged some of the second-hand PAF Mirage deals.

A Pakistani Arms dealer, and brokered the Indian M2K Deal ?

Wow!!! how did he manage THAT ???

[Rauf]

Financing was done done by BCCI, now defunct. Anyone know who started BCCI ? :)

T T F N

[H Khan]

Originally posted by Rauf
Financing was done done by BCCI, now defunct. Anyone know who started BCCI ? :)

T T F N


Syed Abid Hussian Abadi. His right hand man Syed Salah Naqvi was uncle 'cha cha' of a very close friend of mine.

[SyedA]

http://www.app.com.pk/p4.jpg

LT. GEN (R) HAMID NAWAZ KHAN, SECRETARY DEFENCE SHAKING HAND WITH MR. GEOFF HOON, SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE UK ON ARRIVAL AT THE CHAKLALA AIR BASE.

[Pervaiz_K]

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=02072002-110119-8420r


The United States plans to carry out large-scale training exercises later this month with all branches of Pakistan's armed forces, according to well-placed sources. The exercises will be on a much grander scale than the joint U.S.-Indian exercises in May. Maj. Gen. Rashid Qureshi, the military spokesman, said that, "Dates and level of exercises are not finalized." And the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad has sought to minimize the scale on the exercises, saying that they would mostly be at the "company level." However, the sources say the operations will be sizeable and will go through a complete cycle of coordination, planning, execution and debriefings. The last major U.S.-Pakistani joint exercise was "Inspired Gambit 2" in 1997.

[Usman Shabbir]

Speaking of American and Pakistani cooperation, here is a picture taken about ten years ago during a joint training exercise. I have few more like these stashed somewhere but can't seem to find them at the moment - enjoy.

[MohammedA]

Nice pic. Anybody know if SSG has C3 technology like US does, i.e the mobile Ops rooms where SF teams vitals can be monitored, and tv monitors showing the op in progress, etc?

[MohammedA]

Pak.gov.pk

Sino-Pak defence ties help to establish peace and strategic balance in South Asia

BEIJING, July 10 (APP): Sino-Pak defence ties and cooperation helped to establish peace and strategic balance in South Asia, said a senior officer of the Chinese Peoples Liberation Army (PLA)Hu Dongmin. “We are proud of having good neighboring relations with Pakistan in all fields of mutual interest, including Defence,” he said while talking to APP at a military exercise area, during the visit of foreign journalists here on Wednesday. Mr. Hu commander of 194 Brigade said Sino-Pak defence relations are purely for peaceful purpose, and it contributed a lot to promote understanding and goodwill among the armed forces and the people of the two countries. He said there is regular exchange of visits at the military level, which is aimed at learning from the experience and know-how of each other. Hu Dongmin also praised the professional skill and standard of Pakistan armed forces. When asked to comment on the bilateral relations of the two countries in air defence field, Commander Wang Wei of Air Division 24 said the Air forces of the two countries are also enjoying very good relations. These relations helped promoting peace and stability in the region, he added. During the visit, the journalists were given detailed briefing on the operation, training and administration of ground and air services. They also witnessed demonstration of Guard of Honour, multiple arms firing and training fighters flying at the exercise area, which is about 80 kilometers away from Beijing, Northeast part of China.

[H Khan]

.c The Associated Press

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) - Representatives of the U.S. and Pakistani militaries met Tuesday about resuming regular defense dialogue suspended four years ago because of Islamabad's nuclear weapons program, Pakistan's Defense Ministry said.

Air Force Col. Jeffery Paulk met with Rear Adm. Irfan Ahmad in Rawalpindi, a city next to Pakistan's capital, Islamabad, to prepare for the resumption of talks later this year, the ministry said in a statement.

The statement did not say where and when the talks will be held.

The renewed dialogue - known as the Defense Consultative Group - was a sign of warming military ties between the two countries, Foreign Ministry spokesman Aziz Ahmad Khan told The Associated Press.

``Obviously, it's a good thing,'' he said.

Ties have been improving since Islamabad was quick to allow American forces to use bases here for operations against the Taliban and the al-Qaida terror group after the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States.

The resumption of the talks was first announced during a February visit to Washington by Pakistani ruler Gen. Pervez Musharraf.

The United States suspended the talks and other military ties in 1998, when Pakistan exploded its first nuclear weapon, raising fears of atomic war with rival India.

Before that, the military talks had been held twice in Washington in 1995 and 1997 and once in Pakistan in 1996.



07/23/02 10:14 EDT

[H Khan]

ISLAMABAD (July 22 2002) : Admiral Abdul Aziz Mirza, Chief of Naval Staff, returned on Sunday after an official visit to South Africa and United States of America.

During his stay in these countries, Naval Chief called on a number of defence ad naval officials and discussed with them matters of professional interest.

Most of the meetings focused on enhancing the existing relations in defence field and exploring new avenues besides further strengthening cordial relations of Pakistan with these countries.-APP

[H Khan]

Aroosa Alam

RAWALPINDI—The US has assured Pakistan that it will seriously reconsider Pakistan’s request for the release of 28 F-16s if the tension with India is eased and troops of the two countries are back to the peace time locations coupled with resumption of talks with India . The assurance came up during detailed talks held between Defence authorities of Pakistan and visiting US Defence Team to finalise the agenda of Pak-US Defence Consultative Group Meeting, though quite belated but supposedly scheduled to be held in December this year.

During President Musharraf’s visit to Washington in February this year it was agreed that the Group will meet in April but continuing tension between India and Pakistan did not encourage Washington to honour its pledge. Pakistan’s little bit frustration inside Pakistan Army over US indifferent attitude to resume long held essential military supplies have compelled Bush Government to hold preliminary meetings for the Defence Group of the two sides. The three Pakistani Services have handed over their shopping list to the visiting US team which will be approved by Pentagon and Congress Committees before the two sides meet later this year.

Meanwhile official handout said that the re-establishment of US Defence Consultative Group will prove to be appropriate mechanism to revitalise the bilateral ties with Pakistan, said Secretary Defence Lt Gen (Retd) Hamid Nawaz Khan.

He observed this while talking to Colonel (S) Jeffery Paulk leader of the US delegation who called on him in his office on Wednesday.

The US delegation is currently visiting Pakistan in connection with the two-day Defence Consultative Group meeting being held in Rawalpindi. The Secretary Defence said that such a platform is essential to ensure long-term defence cooperation through meaningful DCG process and facilitate the US to understand and provide assistance to meet the defence needs of Pakistan as well as for peace and prosperity of the region as a whole. He hoped that the US authorities would consider issues relating to release of withheld defence items, resumption of defence cooperation in various fields including procurement of equipment and training, and military-to- military cooperation.

Colonel (S) Jeffery Paulk appreciated the revival of DCG and termed it a step forward in the right direction. He hoped that it would help both countries moving forward on the bilateral relations enabling the things to move faster and further.

In the concluding session of the Pre-DCG Planning meeting both sides briefed each other on various issues of common interest and finalised the agenda for the DCG meeting to be held towards the end of the year. Record of the proceedings of the meeting was also signed in the concluding session

[nausherwan]

Asalam-e-Alikum,

Does anyone have subscription to http://www.stratfor.com. They have a report on the front page about the issue of f-16 for Pakistan. It says in the summary that we might be getting these planes. If somebody can access this report, please post it here.:)

[nausherwan]

Five Mashak planes sold to Oman

ISLAMABAD, July 27: Pakistan has finalized the deal for sale of five Super Mashaks - indigenously manufactured propeller aircraft - with the Sultanate of Oman.

The handing over ceremony of Super Mashaks to Oman will be held at Pakistan Aircraft Manufacturing Factory on Aug 1.

Defence Production Division Secretary Zahid Anis would be the chief guest and officials from Oman will formally take over the charge of the newly developed aircraft.

The single engine trainer aircraft can accommodate two or three persons in the cockpit. It meets the requirement of modern primary flight training syllabus, including exercises like basic flight training, instrument flying, aerobatics, night flying, navigation flying and formation flying.

The aircraft is suited for a wide range of army cooperation missions based on forward air control, forward area support, reconnaissance and camouflage inspections and also can target flying and target towing for training of ground units.

A sizable fleet of the earlier version of the aircraft is in use of air force.-APP

[Uzair]

Originally posted by nausherwan
Asalam-e-Alikum,

Does anyone have subscription to http://www.stratfor.com. They have a report on the front page about the issue of f-16 for Pakistan. It says in the summary that we might be getting these planes. If somebody can access this report, please post it here.:) Not really worth it. Stratfor is not the most credible source on these matters.

[nausherwan]

Originally posted by Uzair
Not really worth it. Stratfor is not the most credible source on these matters.


In anycase I am posting the article, with some excellent replies..




Pakistan: F-16 Issue Could Bring Benefits, Backlash to President
26 July 2002

Summary

Pakistani media have reported that Washington may be considering finally sending 28 F-16
fighters Islamabad ordered in 1988. The stalled delivery has been a sore spot in
Pakistan-U.S. relations for more than a decade. A final agreement on the delivery could
substantially boost Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, but he could be in for a serious
domestic backlash if Washington simply is fostering the hope of delivery for use as leverage in
its relations with Islamabad.

Analysis

The Pakistan Observer has reported that the United States has assured Pakistan it will
consider releasing 28 F-16 fighter jets that Islamabad bought in 1988 but which Washington
has held due to concern over Islamabad's nuclear weapons program. The daily newspaper
said tensions would need to ease and talks would have to resume between Pakistan and India
to before the U.S. government makes such a decision.

The F-16s have been a bone of contention between Islamabad and Washington since they
were impounded in 1989. Their delivery after a decade and a half delay could substantially
boost Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf's popularity and his support from both the military
and the general population.

This would prove especially useful as Musharraf prepares for elections in October and
continues to balance U.S. pressure on anti-terrorism, domestic backlash over his cooperation
with the United States and his own efforts to reshape Pakistan's future. But if Washington fails
to follow through with the delivery-- or drops the subject again instead of continuing
negotiations -- the initial benefits from the nation's renewed hope could backfire and leave
Musharraf looking more like a U.S. stooge.

A myriad of domestic opposition groups have accused Musharraf of being anti-Islamic,
undemocratic and of granting too many concessions to the United States. Yet the president
has survived challenge after challenge, and more importantly has maintained the military's
support by assigning choice political positions to military colleagues and reshuffling the ranks
of the armed forces to ensure a base of loyalty. Still Musharraf is far from secure in his
position as Pakistan's singular leader.

Within the military, there are competing views of how "Islamic" Pakistan should be and how
best to balance Islamabad's ties with Washington and Beijing. Those who want both a more
Islamic Pakistan and stronger ties with China, at the expense of those with the United States,
share a common concern that Washington wants to use Pakistan for its own purposes and
that Musharraf is either unwilling or unable to stand up for the country.

Musharraf's decision to allow U.S. forces to operate out of Pakistan to support the attack on
Afghanistan was controversial enough. But when he then allowed U.S. forces to hunt for al
Qaeda inside Pakistan and when he called for militants to use restraint in the disputed Kashmir
region, it cast serious doubts on his loyalty to Pakistan among his detractors. There is now
talk of a permanent U.S. presence in the country, something that could be interpreted as
another step toward giving away Islamabad's sovereignty.

Yet all of these decisions were necessary for Musharraf, not only to avoid placing Pakistan on
the receiving end of U.S. precision-guided munitions but also to stabilize the country's internal
security. Musharraf wants to make Pakistan more attractive as an international aid and
investment destination, which is vital given its dismal economic conditions. Even allowing a
more permanent U.S. presence on Pakistani soil could aid Islamabad, as it would be in
Washington's interest to keep rival India at bay.

But Musharraf's actions require time before they will begin to pay dividends for Pakistan, and
he has just three months until general elections to convince or coerce all sectors across the
country to give him their full support. Publicizing the potential delivery of the F-16s could be
just the boost Musharraf needs to rally the country behind his programs. More than a military
question, the F-16 issue has become a key point of national pride and it has colored how
Pakistanis view Washington.

The issue is also more pressing now, as Pakistani media are playing up Israel's use of
U.S.-supplied aircraft to bomb Palestinians. Many in Pakistan are insulted that Washington
can sell F-16s to Israel that will be used to kill women and children, as well as the militants
who are being targeted, when the United States refuses to deliver these same aircraft to
Pakistan to defend itself against a much larger rival, India.

But Musharraf must be cautious in how widely he uses the potential delivery of the F-16s. If
Washington chooses not to deliver the aircraft, or to continue stalling or delaying discussion,
Musharraf risks being seen as a fool who fell for U.S. tricks. This will undermine his support
particularly among military officers who are already skeptical of his relations with the United
States.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Subject: Musharraf, F-16s and military unity

Mr. ~,

I hope things are going well for you.

I was wondering if you had any insight on an issue I am currently working with, namely the unity of the
Pakistani military. The Pakistan Observer noted that the United States is giving
assurances to Islamabad that it may finally consider thinking about
transferring the F-16s to Pakistan. This got me wondering, given the
upcoming elections in Pakistan, if this talk was part of a deal by the
U.S. for Musharraf to guarantee his military stayed in line. In particular, I
have begun to look to see how big the rivalries between the branches in
the Pakistani military are (as every military in the world has budgetary,
power and ego rivalries among the separate branches). Anyway, as I expected,
most Pakistani sources say all is well inside the Pakistani military and there
are no rivalries, while other sources (particularly Indian ones) say that
the Pakistani military is rife with splits and this undermines its
effectiveness. Given that neither of these are entirely objective
viewpoints, and I have already seen past signs of at least professional
competition inside the Pakistani military (particularly between the
intelligence branch and others), I was wondering if you had any comments
on the subject, particularly on Musharraf's relationship with the air force.
Of course, if the F-16s were finally delivered to Pakistan, I'm sure pretty
much everyone would be happy.

Thank you in advance for your time and assistance,

Sincerely,
Rodger ~

----
Subject: Re: Musharraf, F-16s and military unity

Mr. ~,

I'm doing well, thank you. I hope things are going just as well for you.
I'm sorry I didn't reply earlier to your e-mail, the fluctuations in the
market are keeping busier than I would like to be.

As you probably already know, the Pakistan Army is overwhelmingly the
most influential branch in the Pakistani military. The Air Force (PAF) comes
in second while the Navy (PN) comes in a distant third. I think the Chief
of Army Staff refusal to relinquish power to the Joint Chief of Staff has created
a big problem for integrated operations. (In 1971, the Chief Admiral of the
Navy found out Pakistan was at war through the radio.)

If any branch feels resentment, it would have to be the Navy. Numbering
at only 22,000 personnel (compared to half a million in the Army), the PN is
terribly outnumbered and ill equipped. The Agosta's are the only major naval
purchase in years and that too only because of kickbacks. I think only now is the
establishment realizing the importance of the Navy (i.e. Ormara, Gwadar,
etc). The PN is too small however to cause much trouble.

The Air Force, although smaller than the Army, has always been the best
equipped and thus has remained quiet. They've been given the highest priority in
terms arms acquisitions. The PAF is the pride and joy of even average
Pakistani's b/c of the manner inwhich its distinguished itself 1965, 1971 and even some
of the Israeli-Arab conflicts. (Also, unlike the Army, it's never publically
been involved in coups and thus hasn't disillusioned the public.) That's why
F-16's are such a major issue for the Pakistani military and the people of
Pakistan. I think if the US provided a major system like block C/D F-16's, you'd not
only be pacifying elements within the military but also a good portion of the
public. Although given American reluctance through the years to supply Pakistan
with spares and arms, many in the establishment believe Pakistan should rely
on China and others. The Chinese J-10 and J-12 look promising.

Musharraf has an excellent relationship with the PAF. You'll note that
since Musharraf's take over there's been a harder push for a/c acquisitions.
Pakistan bought a good number of used Mirages from Australia and Lebanon, inducted
Chinese F-7PG's, has pressed for development of the FC-1 (Super 7) with BVR
capability, and the government has been negotiating with the French for Mirage 2000-5's.

In the end, the biggest threats to the unity of the Pakistani military
are:

1. ideological differences between the Army Generals
2. the extent to which intelligence agencies (primarily the ISI) accept military/govt. directives

In dealing with the first issue, there is of course the issue of varying
ideologies between different generals. Men like Zia ul Huq and VCOAS
Aziz Khan (?) had/have streaks of religiosity while Ayub Khan and Musharraf are
clearly more secular. The ISI is very independent. This exhibited by both past
and present experiences. In Zulfikar Bhutto's tenure, he created the Federal
Security Bureau to counter the ISI which had grown to powerful. And currently,
we have ISI officers in Azad Kashmir stating to the int'l media that the
infiltration across the LoC will continue and that 9/11 was staged by the
US itself. I think Stratfor has highlighted the two issues sufficiently
though.

I'm most fearful of the first issue. If Musharraf relinquishes his
position as COAS and takes on the post of President full time, there is a chance that
a religiously motivated (not to mention overly ambitious) general would
launch a counter coup against Musharraf and his pro-US government. The China
lobby in the Pakistani Army is pretty powerful as well.

Before I stop, I'd like to ask you your opinion on something. Supposedly
the US government has offered Musharraf military sales, aid and security if
Pakistan allowed a permanent US base in the region. Is such an offer plausible
and what do you think China's take on the issue would be? Is a base agreement
likely?

As usual, I have rambled on too long. Hopefully this will provide you
with some answers. Take care.

Best Regards,
Shaan ~

----

Subject: RE: Musharraf, F-16s and military unity


Thanks for your reply, and things are going well here -- the Texas
weather is back to normal...no rain, lots of hot hot sun.

As for China's response to a U.S. base in Pakistan...I noticed that
Musharraf is swinging by Beijing in early August, so I'm sure there will
be some discussion of this and Musharraf's general relations with the U.S.
(not to mention the upcoming elections). Beijing is already wary of the
increased U.S. presence in Central Asia, and I'm sure their gut instinct tells them
to be concerned with a more permanent presence of U.S. forces in their South
Asian ally. But China has been able to successfully develop fairly close
ties with South Korea, despite the massive U.S. troops deployment, and as
long as the Untied States remains stingy with arms sales to Islamabad
(which will probably be a long time), China still has a strategic lever in
Paksitan. Finally, a U.S. presence in Pakistan may be good for both
Islamabad and Beijing, as it would likely discourage Indian
"adventurism," or at least ensure that the United States acted swiftly and firmly to
dissuade any potential Indian advances. One thing about China these days
is that the regime is growing more pragmatic in its strategic planning, not
so much dogmatic or reactionary. While their media releases remain bombastic
and they appear to take umbrage at every statement and hint of someone
anywhere in the world expressing criticism, the underlying strategic goal
is to make China such an integral part of the regional and global economic
and political spectrum that it can begin to counterbalance the long-term
security threat it sees from the United States.

Enough of my ramblings,
Take care

-Rodger

[nausherwan]

By the way, I got this article and the replies from Pakitanidefence.com. Somebody posted it there..;)

[uazim]

Five Mashak planes sold to Oman

ISLAMABAD, July 27: Pakistan has finalized the deal for sale of five Super Mashaks - indigenously manufactured propeller aircraft - with the Sultanate of Oman.

The handing over ceremony of Super Mashaks to Oman will be held at Pakistan Aircraft Manufacturing Factory on Aug 1.

Defence Production Division Secretary Zahid Anis would be the chief guest and officials from Oman will formally take over the charge of the newly developed aircraft.

The single engine trainer aircraft can accommodate two or three persons in the cockpit. It meets the requirement of modern primary flight training syllabus, including exercises like basic flight training, instrument flying, aerobatics, night flying, navigation flying and formation flying.

The aircraft is suited for a wide range of army cooperation missions based on forward air control, forward area support, reconnaissance and camouflage inspections and also can target flying and target towing for training of ground units.

A sizable fleet of the earlier version of the aircraft is in use of air force.-APP

------------------------------------------------------------------

UA

[uazim]

From Absar Alam
DHAKA—Pakistan and Bangladesh have agreed to further enhance cooperation in the defence sector with Dhaka quite keen to buy small arms and ammunition manufacturing units from Pakistan, a senior Pakistani official told The Nation Tuesday.
“A feasibility study is being prepared to finalise the deal,” Secretary Defence Hamid Nawaz told The Nation. Nawaz, who is member of the presidential entourage, had a detailed meeting with his Bangladeshi counterpart. Other senior armed forces officers of Bangladesh also attended the meeting.
Pakistan and Bangladesh had signed a defence cooperation agreement decades ago, which enables both the countries to cooperate in the field of defence. Under this accord Pakistan has trained 900 military officers from Bangladesh, Secretary Defence said.
About 33 Pakistani officers have also got training from Bangladesh under this agreement. Pakistan also supplies small arms and ammunition to Bangladesh. “Bangladesh has asked for more vacancies in the military training programmes,” Hamid Nawaz said, “and we will provide more training opportunities to our Bangladeshi brethren.”
A feasibility study was also being finalised to sell small arms and ammunition manufacturing machinery to Bangladesh. The manufacturing units for small arms will be sold by the Ordinance Factory Wah as these will supply products compatible with Bangladesh army’s requirements.
To a question Hamid Nawaz said that defence ties between Pakistan and Bangladesh were very cordial and were based on mutual trust. He said that the defence sector cooperation between the two brotherly countries would further strengthen in future.


-----------------------------------

ua

[uazim]

Originally posted by osman
BD to buy Pak arms making units

From Absar Alam
DHAKA—Pakistan and Bangladesh have agreed to further re.

It help if you read the thread before posting the new message ;)

UA

[Hasib]

India agrees price for UK jets

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2163413.stm

Here are some key points from the above news article.

The Indian government says it has agreed a price for the purchase of 66 Hawk trainer jets from the British-based aviation company, BAE Systems.
Official British policy is not to sell arms to countries that might use them against their neighbours.
Several members of parliament have said sales to both India and Pakistan should be suspended given the heightened tension between them.


Amazing for the sake of profits, British would contradict their own policy. They also want to broker peace b/w Pakistan & India. To show extreme displeasure, Pakistan should refuse to receive British officials when they decided to visit Pakistan to reduce regional tensions.

Hasib

[H Khan]

WASHINGTON, July 30 (AFP) - 22:23 GMT - The Pentagon said Tuesday that it would sell six land-based Aerostat L-88 radar systems to Pakistan so that it can better cooperate with US in tracking Taliban and al-Qaeda fighters on the border with Afghanistan.
"The radar systems will add to Pakistan's ability to monitor its western borders in support of operation Enduring Freedom," the Pentagon said in a statement.

"Specifically, the radar systems will be used to monitory ground traffic and low-flying aircraft along this border," the statement said.

Aerostat is a low-technology system that Pakistan will have no difficulty integrating into its current system, and will not upset the current military balance in the region

It will also be used to combat drug trafficking, since the area is a major producer of heroin, the Pentagon said.

The sale will total 155 million dollars and must be approved by Congress.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


US clears sale of six C130 cargo planes to Pakistan
WASHINGTON, July 16 (Reuters) -

The Pentagon has drawn a systematic plan to re-equip Pakistan's armed forces as a reward for Pakistan's support for war on terrorism. It plans to fulfill Pakistan's wish list which includes F-16 fighters, warships, artillery, missiles, helicopters and other military hardware.



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


U.S. to Sell Pakistan Military Gear
By PAULINE JELINEK
.c The Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP)

A senior official of the Defense Department said that the Bush administration has made it clear that all military needs of Pakistan would be fulfilled in coming months. Pakistan desperately wants to buy more F-16 fighter aircrafts, warships, artillery guns, missiles, radar and essential equipment to modernize its obsolete armed forces.




All these news have started to come to light now. I think with the passage of time in the near future most of Pakistan's wishlist would fulfilled.

[Abbas]

01 August 2002 Thursday 21 Jamadi-ul-Awwal 1423

Five Mashak aircraft to be given to Oman today

ISLAMABAD, July 31: Pakistan on Thursday will formally hand over five newly-built Super Mashak aircraft to Oman at a ceremony to be held at the Pakistan Aircraft Factory.

The handing over of the fleet of Mashak is a part of the deal earlier finalized between Pakistan and Oman for supply of these multi-purpose propeller aircraft to Oman.

Secretary of Defence Production Division Air Marshal Zahid Anis would be the chief guest while high officials from Oman will be present to formally take over the charge of the indigenously-developed aircraft.

With this, Pakistan would join a select group of countries which export aircraft including, USA, UK, France, Russian Federation and China.

The finalization of the deal will not only introduce Pakistan as an exporting country of the military aircraft but also help boost the confidence of the foreign buyers on Pakistan-made items especially in defence production sector. This light, robust single-engined trainer aircraft can accommodate two to three persons.

It also meets the requirement of modern primary flight training syllabus including exercises like, basic flight training, instrument flying, aerobatics, night flying, navigation flying and formation flying.

The Super Mashak is suited for a wide range of army cooperation missions based on forward air control, forward area support, reconnaissance, camouflage inspections and can also target flying and target towing for training of ground units.

A sizable fleet of the earlier version of this aircraft is in use of both Pakistan Air Force and Pakistan Army and providing successful services in different fields of operations.-APP

[Farooq]

U.S. to Sell Pakistan Military Gear
By PAULINE JELINEK
.c The Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP)

A senior official of the Defense Department said that the Bush administration has made it clear that all military needs of Pakistan would be fulfilled in coming months. Pakistan desperately wants to buy more F-16 fighter aircrafts, warships, artillery guns, missiles, radar and essential equipment to modernize its obsolete armed forces.


??? so what have we assured them in return ??.

Nukes, permanent provision of bases ??.

[SyedA]

Pakistan, Iran to explore defence cooperation


By Qudssia Akhlaque

ISLAMABAD, Aug 1: A high-level military delegation from Iran will be here next week to explore areas of defence cooperation with Pakistan.

Informed defence and diplomatic sources told Dawn on Thursday that the delegation headed by Iran's deputy defence minister would arrive here on Monday. The Iranian officials will discuss with their Pakistani counterparts defence capabilities of both the countries to see how they could benefit from their respective expertise in the area.

The visit of the Iranian defence delegation to Pakistan is seen by observers as a distinct sign of a thaw in relations between the two countries that had been strained for several years.

Currently the defence cooperation between the two countries is at a very small level, confined largely to training, naval exercises and some ammunition trade, a senior official told Dawn.

Sources said that Iran had shown keen interest in Pakistan's Mashak training aircraft and AL-Khalid tanks. They said that another potential export from Pakistan to Iran could be gun-boats, hinting at a possibility of the two countries entering into a joint venture for defence equipment.

Pakistani officials said given that Iran was fairly advanced in the aviation field, Pakistan was interested in the Iranian passenger aircraft that have been operational since early this year.

There has been easing of tensions between Pakistan and Iran following Sept 11 and the subsequent fall of the Taliban regime. The first visible signs of improvement in relations between the two brotherly countries were witnessed in November 1999 when President Gen Pervez Musharraf visited Tehran. After taking over as the country's Chief Executive, President Musharraf's first official visit abroad was to Iran.

A major breakthrough in the relations was achieved only recently when Iran's top National Security Advisor Hassan Ruhani visited Pakistan. Ruhani led a 30-member delegation to Pakistan on June 28.

Sources privy to meetings between Ruhani and his counterpartshere said officials were very encouraged and satisfied with Ruhani's response to key issues raised by Pakistan.

These included opening up of Pakistan cultural centres in Iran and establishing of a consulate at Bandar Abbas, the main seaport for Iran's oil exports. The only two countries that have a consulate there are UAE and India. Ruhani agreed in principle to both these requests.

Currently Iran has seven cultural centres and four consulates in Pakistan whereas Pakistan has no cultural centre in Iran and has only two consulates there.

Islamabad also raised its concern about Tehran allowing India to set up a consulate in Mashhad despite scant Indian population there. Pakistan was given the assurance by Iran that it would keep a check on the Indian activities keeping in view Pakistan's strategic sensitivities in the area. Meanwhile, Pakistan officials are quite hopeful of cooperation between Pakistan and Iran expanding and moving in a mutually beneficial direction.

Under a recent agreement between the two countries, Iran will be soon setting up a bus manufacturing plant in Karachi that would produce a thousand buses. In another significant development Pakistan has reportedly secured a deal with Iran on import of electricity for parts of Balochistan, at extremely cheaper rates than local electricity. The deal is also likely to include import of diesel from Iran. Pakistan on the other hand may export refined gasoline to Iran, well-placed sources told Dawn.

The total trade volume between Pakistan and Iran is to the tune of $370 million that heavily tilts in favour of Iran. Of the total figure Pakistan exports to Iran account for only $25 million. Pakistan's biggest import from Iran is crude oil.

In the context of Pakistan-Iran relations the primary concern of Iranians is the presence of the US forces in Pakistan while the latter's is the North-South Corridor that Iran wants to establish with India and Russia. Both countries are trying hard to allay fears and suspicions that arise from these concerns to further strengthen their ties.

[MohammedA]

Pakistan exports fighter-trainer planes


The original Mushshak is in use in eight countries

Pakistan has delivered five locally-built training aircraft to the Gulf state of Oman, completing the first export order for the military aircraft.
The value of the deal for the Super Mushshaks, which were built by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra, northwest of Islamabad, was not disclosed.



We would like to see more in cooperation with support of these light trainer aircraft

Brigadier Saeed Bin Hamood
Royal Oman Air Force
"Competing with European and American aircraft manufacturers and coming out with flying colours should be a matter of great pride for the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex," Pakistan's secretary of defence production, retired Air Marshal Zahid Anees said in a statement.

The order, which was signed in December, is Pakistan's first major military export deal since 11 September and had to be approved by the US because the plane contains US parts.

"This is very significant for Pakistan because it has a green light from the US," Paul Beaver from Jane's told the BBC's World Business Report.

"This plane has an american engine, they are now able to export it."

Pakistan has previously exported arms to Saudi Arabia, Iran, the United Arab Emirates, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

"We hope the relations between the two air forces will be stronger now," said Royal Oman Air Force Brigadier Saeed Bin Hamood on Pakistan television.

"We would like to see more in cooperation with support of these light trainer aircraft," he said.

Super trainer

The Super Mushshak, a single-piston engine aircraft with a seating capacity of up to three was launched in November 2000.

The plane is an improved version of the Mushshak which is currently being used by Oman, Syria, Iran, Zimbabwe, Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Pakistan.

It can be used as a trainer aircraft but also for other aerial and defence operations.

The PAC was set up in the 1970s to create a local production and servicing base for military aircraft and engines.

It has become the backbone of the Pakistan Air Force in maintaining and supporting its major weapons systems.

PAC has also saved the country large sums of foreign exchange reserves because the work does not have to be carried out abroad.

[osman]

Originally posted by uazim
Pakistan, Iran to explore defence cooperation

UA

Now who is not reading before posting :D

[uazim]

Originally posted by osman


Now who is not reading before posting :D

Guilty as charged:rolleyes:

UA

[SyedA]

US initiates re-arming of Pakistan: paper


By Our Correspondent

NEW YORK, Aug 8: Recent reports from Washington suggest that the US administration has initiated the process of re-arming Pakistan once again, reminiscent of the mid-80s when the US supplied it billions of dollars worth of arms , the Financial Times said in a report on Thursday.

The paper said that after a long gap of more than four years during which no proposal for transfer of defence items to Pakistan was made - from early 1998 to mid 2002 - the US State Department has of late been approving licenses for transfer of such items to Pakistan in unprecedented numbers.

However, the paper noted that as a result of the events in Afghanistan, the United Sates president waived all these sanctions operating on Pakistan based on the waiver authority of October 1999 and the Brownback Bill of October 2001 (PL 107-57).

As a result, limited one-time supplies of military items were allowed until November 2002, and thereafter, the complete range of military supplies and assistance, unencumbered by any legislative restriction.

In short, after Nov 21, 2002, there will be no restriction whatsoever on any type of military assistance or supply from the US to Pakistan, the paper said.

The FT says that in the week of July 15, 2002, the last week for which data is available, 23 license approvals were forwarded to the US Congress, many of them for items relating to F-16, transfers of which had been prohibited by various acts of the Congress from early 90s onwards.

In the subsequent weeks, for which public data has not yet been released, indications are that additional approvals for such transfers have been continuing at a similar rate. The F-16s in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) inventory, for example, are the front-line aircraft of the PAF modified for delivery of nuclear weapons.

In addition, there are a number of other factors that are likely to intensify the US supply of military hardware to Pakistan. The US-Pakistan Defence Consultative Group (DCG) suspended in 1998 has been revived and significantly the US administration has made the first budgetary request for FMF (Foreign Military Financing) assistance to Pakistan, since 1990.

The situation will become even more critical in the coming months when the current restrictions on military transfers to Pakistan will all be lifted, after which there will be no bar on any type of military transfers or assistance to Pakistan.

The security implications of such unbridled military transfers for Indian security need hardly be emphasized. That being the case, it is not difficult to envisage the serious effects of such transfers on the ongoing efforts at improving the bilateral Indo-US relations, the paper said.

[Pervez Nawaz]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2188324.stm
Monday, 12 August, 2002, 11:48 GMT 12:48 UK
Pakistan ready to build
submarines

The next Agosta submarine will be built in Pakistan
Pakistan's second Agosta attack submarine is
ready for sea trials, boosting the country's
ambitions to become a regional supplier of the
French designed vessel.

The Agosta 90-B submarine was built in
Pakistan with help from French state-owned
ship-building firm Direction des Constructions
Navales (DCN).

The project was completed despite a suicide
bomb attack with killed 11 of the project's
French engineers in front of their Karachi hotel
in May.

Pakistan plans to build a third Agosta-90B
independently at the Karachi Dockyards and is
reportedly in "serious negotiations" to supply
other Asian and Gulf navies.

Arms industry growth

Pakistan has been building-up its arms industry
since US sanctions against it for nuclear tests
in 1998 were lifted in earlier this year.

It completed its first major military export deal
since 11 September earlier this month when
the Gulf state of Oman took delivery of five
Super Mushshak training aircraft.

The deal had to be approved by the US
government because the plane contains US
parts.

Pakistan has previously exported arms to Saudi
Arabia, Iran, the United Arab Emirates, Sri
Lanka and Bangladesh.

Naval power

The Agosta submarine was originally due to be
launched in 2001 and commissioned by the
Pakistan Navy in February 2002.

It will now be launched near the port city of
Karachi on 24 August, the English language
Pakistan Observers newspaper reported.

The first Agosta was built in France, the final
assembly of the second was completed in
Pakistan and the third to be completely built in
Pakistan.

The Agosta 90-B can stay at sea longer than
Pakistan's other submarines and can be
converted to nuclear power, the newspaper
reported, quoting a senior navy official.

The vessel is equipped with the French-made
Submarine Tactical Integrated Combat System,
four bow torpedo tubes, and recently
successfully fired a French-made Exocet SM39
missile, he added.

In May, French naval chief Jean Louis Battet
met India's defence minister to reportedly hold
talks for the sale of six Scorpene submarines
also made by DCN.

[Saad Hasan]

"The Agosta 90-B can stay at sea longer than
Pakistan's other submarines and can be
converted to nuclear power, the newspaper
reported, quoting a senior navy official."

Highly doubt this, how are they going to fit even a miniaturized plant in a diesel sub.......

[omear]

Saad man you need to read up a bit...... our agosta's are going to be fitted with the mesma AIP. which allows the sub to operate underwater for more than a month or even 60 days without surfacing(i think) and the sub does not have to recharge batteries by surfacing every few hours this is what is so great about our agosta's they can stay hidden for long periods of time only a couple of other navies have this AIP and we are the first in asia.

This is the best compromise between a nuke and diesel, you get the nuke's endurance and the quiteness of the SSK.

That is why these subs will make good strategic nuke platforms.

[Saad Hasan]

I think I know what Air Independent Propulsion is and fact that Diesel electric subs can stay longer under water compare to convential subs, upto 2 weeks, but not quite on the lines of "nuclear powered", which can stay underwater for months...The article explicitly states "converted to nuclear powered", which to me does not in any way constitute AIP, but rather a sub powered by a miniature nuclear power plant......

[Murad]

"The Agosta 90-B can stay at sea longer than
Pakistan's other submarines and can be
converted to nuclear power, the newspaper
reported, quoting a senior navy official."

I guess one can derive two possible explanations from this statement.

Either
1) It can be converted to nuclear propulsion. French Rubis class nuclear subs were derived from the earlier Agostas and are the smallest nuclear subs in service. They aren't a lot bigger than the Agostas, infact Agosta 90B will be 76m long after AIP is installed vs 75m for Rubis. Is the PN thinking along these lines??? Quite a difficult task to say the least.

or
2)They can be nuclear weapons platforms. The question then arises what sort of a weapon are we talking about? Something totally new like a nuclear tipped cruise missile which can possibly fit in a small sub? It cannot be a derivative of land based SSM. Among MANY other technical problems involved in integrating the two, Ghauri with it's 1500km range is ~15m high, while the submarine is at least half that diameter. it doesn't really add up.

So the question remains. what was the senior navy official referring to???

[Noman]

Originally posted by Saad Hasan
I think I know what Air Independent Propulsion is and fact that Diesel electric subs can stay longer under water compare to convential subs, upto 2 weeks, but not quite on the lines of "nuclear powered", which can stay underwater for months...The article explicitly states "converted to nuclear powered", which to me does not in any way constitute AIP, but rather a sub powered by a miniature nuclear power plant......

Diesel Electric Subs ARE conventional subs. They use electric motors underwater (because there is no Oxygen to run the Diesels), and when the batteries are depleted they come up to surface to extend the snorkle to get air, run the diesels and recharge the batteries.

The AIP in Pk's Agostas, adds a third type of engine, a Stirling Engine. These subs also carry Liquid Oxygen for the Stirling engine. This engine is run underwater to provide electricty for the electric motor and for charging. The reason for having a stirling engine is that it has a very high exhaust pressure, something necessary to expel the exhaust fumes underwater (a diesel engine cannot generate such a high exhaust pressure, thus can't be used at lower depths).

I think Pakistan is a long long way off from designing and building a miniature nuclear engine for its sub. And it will mean redesign of the whole sub. It simply not possible to retrofitfit in a nuclear engine on an existing design.

[Saad Hasan]

"Diesel Electric Subs ARE conventional subs."
Yes they certainly are, what I meant to say was compare to "other" conventional subs....

However, what do you suppose that "can be converted to nuclear powered" bit means?

[Noman]

Originally posted by Saad Hasan
"Diesel Electric Subs ARE conventional subs."
Yes they certainly are, what I meant to say was compare to "other" conventional subs....

However, what do you suppose that "can be converted to nuclear powered" bit means?

If you remove its diesels, and batteries, install a mini-reactor, maybe extend the hull a bit. It is theoretically possible.

But practically...I think it is just dis-information.

We are a long long way off from building a nuclear sub, or modifying an existing boat to nuclear energy.

[H Khan]

By Ansar Abbasi

ISLAMABAD: Five helicopters provided by the United States to Pakistan for the security of it's border with Afghanistan are said to be unreliable.

Sources associated with the operation of these helicopters in Quetta confided to The News though Pakistani technicians have not yet been allowed by the Americans to assess these helicopters, the local team involved in their operation sees trouble with these "precious" gifts offered to Islamabad for siding with Washington in the latter's fight against "terrorism".

US embassy spokesman Jerry White, who took up his present assignment on August 15, when contacted, expressed his surprise over the development. "I am stunned to hear this," he said, adding, "Washington is not in a habit of giving things that do not work to its friendly governments." He said since it was his first day in the office, he did not know about the details.

The Ministry of Interior was keeping a mum on the issue. Interior Secretary Tasneem Noorani, who is on a visit to Kosovo, was contacted several times before his departure, both at his office and residence, but he never replied. In the absence of the interior ministry's official spokesman Rashid Khan, who is in US these days, there is no one to speak on the subject. One of the officials, when contacted, requested to drop the story for the time being and wait till the secretary returns.

Reliable sources in Quetta, however, said that the UH-II helicopters were not operating satisfactorily and the quality of refurbishment was not of international standard. After every mission, the sources said, those develop problems like oil and hydraulic leakages and were not ready for the second mission. Navigation instruments of some of these aircraft also caused errors. The engines and transmissions of these helicopters should be new but the Pakistani authorities do not have the data. "We don't know whether the engines and transmissions are new or have been overhauled," one of the sources said. These helicopters are said to be of UH-I make whose year of manufacture was 1968. They were upgraded to UH-II and were supposed to be fully refurbished before being handing over to Pakistan.

So far, the maintenance control of these helicopters is with the US personnel. Fifteen well-trained Pakistani technicians are in Quetta but they are not being allowed to work on these machines, saying that the US personnel do not have tools for them.

The US maintenance team in Quetta has been communicated the concerns of the Pakistani team. The sources say the Pakistani officials have communicated to their high command in Islamabad to take up the matter with the relevant quarters so that the unreliable parts of the machines could be replaced.

The Pakistani team also demands early handing over of the maintenance control of these helicopters. Maintenance of these helicopters is the responsibility of the US government for three years after which these machines would be maintained from the state expense.

According to a source, if the quality of the engines and transmission of the helicopters was not of international standard then those might not operate beyond three years. The UH-II type is always a refurbished helicopter, as this category is no more being manufactured. In the backdrop of Islamabad's support to Washington's war against terrorism, the US offered $73 million aid to the former to secure its border with Afghanistan. The Americans want strict security of these borders to make it impossible for the al-Qaeda members to enter Pakistan. Instead of giving cash aid, the Americans decided to provide Pakistan with five helicopters, three new fixed wing surveillance aircraft and other ground equipment to guard these borders

[H Khan]

ABU DHABI [MENL] -- Pakistan has increased aid to the Saudi air force.

Gulf defense sources said the aid includes training as well as technical help to maintain older aircraft in the Saudi military. The sources said the Saudi government issued an order to more than double the number of Pakistani personnel.

The Pakistani News Service reported recently that Riyad has increased the quota of labor from Pakistan by 30 to 75 percent. The news service quoted Pakistani aviation sources.

Islamabad and Riyad have bolstered defense cooperation over the last year. This has included the launch of joint ventures meant to produce and overhaul weapons.

The Saudi move will also increase the number of Pakistani technicians who work in the kingdom's civilian aviation sector. Pakistan has played a role in developing Saudi Arabia's aviation industry.


June 1, 2002

[Hakam Singh Mattu]

India has been preoccupied with Pakistan's increasingly sophisticated naval arsenal and Karachi incident was to sabotage this effort. India is really scared of Pakistan's advanced nuclear weapons and it has been proven in the present standoff clearly.

But Pakistan must prepare for a final round with India as thing would only go from bad to worse as RSS gain more power.

Sincerely

Hakam Singh Mattu

[zia ul haq]

Asalaamo-a-laikum.

True on all accounts I'm afraid. The Agostas are a clear and potent threat to IN sea domination in the Arabian Sea.

If and when the PN manages to field a sea based arm of the triad this shall be more so.

It is also unfortunate that to keep their grip on power madmen accross the border will be picking on whichever minority is the flavour of the month.

[Noman]

Originally posted by Hakam Singh Mattu
But Pakistan must prepare for a final round with India as thing would only go from bad to worse as RSS gain more power.

Hakam Singh Mattu

Hello Hakam, welcome to the Forum. This is a bit off topic, but I have a question for you. Looking at the events of the past few years we are well familiar with the attitude and 'plans' the RSS has for the muslims and christians in India.

How does the Sikh community see the rise of the RSS and its policies towards minorities (especally the Sikhs) ??

(Moderators...feel free to transfer this to a dedicated thread.)

[Uzair]

Originally posted by H Khan

So far, the maintenance control of these helicopters is with the US personnel. Fifteen well-trained Pakistani technicians are in Quetta but they are not being allowed to work on these machines, saying that the US personnel do not have tools for them.

The US maintenance team in Quetta has been communicated the concerns of the Pakistani team. The sources say the Pakistani officials have communicated to their high command in Islamabad to take up the matter with the relevant quarters so that the unreliable parts of the machines could be replaced.

The Pakistani team also demands early handing over of the maintenance control of these helicopters. Maintenance of these helicopters is the responsibility of the US government for three years after which these machines would be maintained from the state expense. This is silly. Why doesn't the US also fly these helicopters if they want them under their own control. It will save Pak the hassle frankly.

[Gaf]

The Pakistani News Service reported recently that Riyad has increased the quota of labor from Pakistan by 30 to 75 percent. The news service quoted Pakistani aviation sources.

The simple fact is that the Saudis have not developed their own resources to enable them to effectively manager their airforce. Even today, a large portion of the personnel involved in maintaining the operational readiness of the Saudi Airforce are British/American personnel. This limits Saudi Arabia's ability to assert a strong foreign policy, without the support of these Western Countries.

This is a step in the right direction, though i am not sure how long this will take..

[Ash]

Russia rules out arms supply to Pakistan

Press Trust of India

Moscow, August 27: Stressing that India was its only "strategic partner" in South Asia, Russia has firmly ruled out the possibility of any defence deal with Pakistan.

"Russia has only one strategic partner in the region, that is India and we don't see any others in this role," Director General of Rosoboron Export state corporation, Russia's military exports agency, Andrey Belyaninov said

When pointed out that Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf had in a recent interview said that Islamabad wanted to buy modern weapons from Russia, Belyaninov said, "We are guided by President Putin's strict directives of no contacts or talks with Pakistan on defence deals".

He underscored that the recent sale of MI-17 helicopters to Islamabad is "strictly a civilian deal" and Rosoboron Export has no role in it. India is the only country in the world with which Russia has a long-term programme of military-technical co-operation till year 2010, he said adding that it would greatly help India in attaining self-sufficiency in hi-tech weaponry.


Salaam


Ash

[SyedA]

Pakistan, France sign agreement on funding for military personnel
training



ISLAMABAD, Aug 28 (APP): Pakistan and France signed an
agreement on Tuesday regarding funding for Pakistan Armed Forces personnel undergoing training courses in France.

The Agreement was signed by Rear Admiral Irfan Ahmed,
Additional Secretary, Ministry of Defence and Eric Berti Charge de, Affairs, the Embassy of France on behalf of their respective governments in a simple ceremony.

This agreement sets out the understanding between the two
Governments concerning funding by the Government of France for the Pakistan Military personnel, other than those on reciprocal basis, who are undergoing training courses in France.

Mutual cooperation in diversified fields of military and
defence exists between Pakistan and France since 1947 and over the years, the two countries have been maintaining cordial relations in this area.

Pakistan Air Force maintains the highest number of Mirage
Aircraft in any Air Force in the world. The Agosta 90-B Submarine project is an ample proof of the excellent defence cooperation that exists between the two countries.

The signing of this Agreement will go a long way in further
strengthening the military cooperation between the two countries.

[Sheikh]

When they need money to feed their ppl! They will come to us! All we have to do is wait and become richer so we can afford all their TECH.

[MohammedA]

PakObservor.com

Non-delivery of F-16s
Pak-US set to lock horns

Aroosa Alam

WASHINGTON—Pakistan and United States of America are set to lock horns over the controversial deal of non-delivered F-16 aircraft when the two sides meet in Rawalpindi later this month. The USA maintains that it has settled the issue with Nawaz Sharif Government by adjusting the amount against edible oil while the Musharraf Government feels that Lockheed Martin and the US Government still owes a couple of millions to Pakistan as final adjustment of the amount paid by PAF for the purchase of the 28 F-16s which were not delivered to Pakistan under Pressler embargo.

Well informed sources in Washington say that the DCG which will meet later this month in Pakistan will take up the issue of deliveries related to the F-16 settlement agreement and will seek the clear status of the agreement from the US delegation which will be led by Douglas J Feith US Under Secretary Defence (Policy).

Sources say that agenda so far finalised for the first meeting of Pak-US DCG meeting is wide- ranging and will cover issues relating to IMET, FMS cases, release of withheld impounded stores, storage charges for the items withheld and reimbursement of US 140 million which the US owes to Pakistan. The US side during the recent pre-DCG meeting held in Pakistan assured Pakistan that it will resolve all these issues before the commencement of the first DCG meeting but Pakistan still awaits the US response to the issues raised by Pakistani side on 23 July 2002.

Pakistan needs settlement of 22 old FMS (Foreign Military Sales) case, refund of dues for spares of Brook Garcia Ships, payment of balance amount of F-16 aircraft and issuance of export licences in respect of 94 commercial contracts concluded with the US firms and suppliers which pertains to supply of military hardware to Pakistan Army.

During last meeting between US and Pakistan military authorities, the two sides did review 22 FMS cases and it was agreed that the US will waive off storage charges which incurred at the time of imposition of sanctions. Pakistan conveyed its desire to close some FMS cases but demanded refunds where due. Sources maintain that reply is still awaited from the US side on these crucial matters without which the DCG cannot meet.

According to the details, the DCG will meet later this month in Pakistan with a six-hour long plenary session. The Group will then spread and higher officials will make office calls and hold other meetings. Following two days marathon discussions both at individual levels and working committees level a joint statement will be issued by the two leaders of the DCG. Pakistani side will be led by Secretary Defence Lt General (Retd) Hamid Nawaz. Officials say that during the pre-DCG planning meeting the two sides have agreed on the objectives of the DCG which included Security Cooperation, Defence Sales, Military Education and Training, and Combined Exercises. The US side told Pakistan that Washington’s objectives to re-activate DCG are to re-establish a meaningful long-term DCG process, understand Pakistan’s defence challenges, gain political approval for military to military plans, re-establish military contacts and to establish dates for ESG (Executive Steering Committee)/JWG (Joint Working Group).

Pakistan also expressed it desire to have sustained and enduring defence cooperation between the two countries through meaningful DCG process, enhance US understanding and assistance to Pakistan’s security needs, understand US long-term objectives in the region, re-establish military contacts, and US assistance in training and equipment to address non-conventional threats.

The two sides have also agreed to establish two working groups, which will be announced after the DCG meeting in Pakistan. The first working group will be called Counter Terrorism Group (CTWG) and the second will be named Security Cooperation Working Group (SCWG) and this group will be sub-divided into two sub-committees. The two sub-committees will be called Committee on Defence Equipment Matters (CDEM) and Committee on Training Matters (IMET). Official sources in the US Capital say that there is a possibility of formulation of a Joint Working Technical Group (JTWG) which will be engaged in scientific fields to share ideas in development of technology.

Sources say that the forthcoming DCG meeting will set the tone and the pace of future Pak-US relations as long-term reliable strategic partners. It can also prove to be a make or break meeting as Pakistani side has described this meeting as very crucial.

The US delegation will arrive with a number of important briefs for Pakistani delegation. It will contain briefs on Global War on Terrorism, Pak-US Security Cooperation, US CENTCOM brief, US -India military collaboration and US perspectives on the security of the region.

Pakistan besides raising the rather thorny issue of F-16s will also highlight the issue of Kashmir, Islamabad’s perspective on war on terrorism, operations against Al-Qaeda in NWFP, security environment in the region and future direction of Armed Forces of Pakistan.

The two sides have already established a Military Consultative Group, which will be represented by CENTCOM while officers from Pakistan’s three Services will represent the Pakistani side. The objectives of the MCC will be to formulate exercise plans, senior officers’ visits and other military to military activities.

Each side in the DCG meeting will be represented by 15 officials.

[SyedA]

'Mly ties with China to be strengthened'


By Our Staff Reporter

SARGODHA, Sept 7: China and Pakistan have decided to substantially enhance their military cooperation in all the fields, says Air Chief Marshal Mushaf Ali Mir.

"The government-to-government go-ahead has been given to undertake extensive military cooperation between our two countries," he stated.

Briefing reporters at Sargodha Air Base on Saturday, he rejected assertions that China was under pressure from the United States or western countries "not" to have defence cooperation with Pakistan.

"There is no pressure on cooperation in conventional defence matters and China is providing most modern aircraft to us," the air chief said.

The United States has been accusing China of supplying nuclear-capable missiles to Pakistan, but both Beijing and Islamabad deny the allegation.

Talking about US-Pakistan relations, he said that during President Gen Pervez Musharraf's visit to America, issues concerning conventional military imbalance in the region will also be discussed.

Pakistan, he said, was looking for purchasing different kinds of arms from the United States, including F-16 aircraft and their spare parts. He was of the opinion that the revival of defence consultative group between the two countries would lead to their new defence cooperation. "If you have good political relations with the United States, it means things can drastically improve and even various sanctions can also go," he added.

The air chief said that in case better understanding was developed with the US government, especially during the president's visit, Pakistan could then have the option of buying those F-16s which were currently being maintained by Turkey and Belgium. "There are 4,000 plus F-16s which are being retired from the US air force which could attract many buyers."

He expressed the hope that the United States will soon be offering 7 additional C-130 aircraft to Pakistan.

Responding to a question, the air chief acknowledged: "At this moment, we do have a gap with India in terms of high-tech aircraft and certain technologically advanced weapons. But with the support of our nation and professional competence of our engineers and technicians, we shall not allow this gap to increase beyond acceptable limits."

To another question, the air chief said that defence cooperation with other western countries, including France, was also being strengthened. However, he said that PAF could have been strengthened had Pakistan purchased Mirage 2000-5 from France in 1995 and 1996. He did not like to go into the details.

He did not see the possibility of nuclear war with India but said that fighting in Kashmir or in any particular sector could not be ruled out. "And this limited war will be sharp, swift and intense, but I do not see an all-out war."

"There has not been any armed conflict between India and Pakistan for the last 9 months and it is because of the fear of the nuclear war," he said.

He said that despite the numerical disparity, the PAF was capable of creating decisive effects in war with India. In air war, he said, although the numbers do matter, the deficiency can be addressed through high morale of the fighting force, rigorous training of the pilots, efficient maintenance of equipment, professional operational planning, courageous leadership and a will to fight hard.

"By the grace of God, the PAF proudly possesses all these intangibles, and our fleet of more than 350 fighter aircraft is a force to reckon with," he declared.

He said that for more than a decade Pakistan had been under international sanctions during which time it faced severe economic crunch. "But these hardships did not deter us," he said, adding that due to professional leadership and hard-working personnel, the PAF has managed to keep its aircraft in a fully operational state.

"We have lethal weapons which can be accurately delivered to cause the required destruction for supporting the offensive and defensive plans of our surface forces."

"We have professionally trained and courageous pilots who are eagerly waiting to fight the battle in the enemy territory," he said.

The air chief also claimed that the PAF has the will to achieve the desired results at any cost. "Rest assured, if war is thrust on us, our performance shall be more than the expectations of the nation. The PAF has proved this in previous wars also."

He said that he would like to assure the nation that if India attempted any misadventure then all men and material assets of the PAF would be utilized in a skillful and professional manner to thwart Indian designs.

Earlier, the reporters were also briefed by Air Commodore Sabeeh Hussain and Air Commodore Faaiz Amir. The briefing covered the performance of PAF in the 1965 war and its operational readiness status in current stand-off with India. They were also taken to various PAF establishments there.

[Sultan]

Got this from PDNN.... its been around for a while... surprised nobody's commented on it so far. BUT I take it that this news report is true and if so then Iran should become the first export customer for the Al Khalid and I do believe the second export customer for the Super Mushak. Nevertheless a large sale of Al Khalid to Iran should help boost other countries (read Malaysia) confidence in this potent weapon system. Interested in what sort of naval craft has been marketed to Iran... I presume the Iranians are interested in our missile attack craft or possibly even the Agosta.

ISLAMABAD, September 05 (PNS): Iran is likely to purchase Pakistan's Super Mashak air trainer, the Al Khalid main battle tank and attack naval craft. For the first time, Iran and Pakistan have discussed the prospect of joint weapons projects. The discussion is the most significant evidence of a warming of the long frigid relations between the two countries.

Both sides would discuss the prospect of joint weapons production and the purchase of Pakistani military platforms and systems. Iran and Pakistan engage in limited military cooperation, such as joint training, naval exercises and the sale of ammunition, it said. Iran, Pakistan relations have witnessed a boost and there has been frequent exchange of visits by the high-ranking officials from the two countries after recent developments in Afghanistan. In recent months, among others, Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi and Interior Minister Abdolvahed Moussavi Lari have paid visits to Pakistan. Earlier, Interior minister Moinuddin Haider is currently visiting Iran where he met with his Irani counterpart and President Muhammad Khatami. Iranian president has accepted an invitation of visit to Pakistan. Iran's President Syed Muhammad Khatami while expressing concern over the high level of tension between India and Pakistan hoped that both countries would resolve their disputes through peaceful means and dialogue.

The interior minister conveyed to him the greetings and good wishes of President General Musharraf. Interior Minister also told the Khatami that the Government of Pakistan looked forward to receive the Iranian President on a visit to Pakistan in response to the invitation that is outstanding, says a fax message received form Tehran here on Wednesday. Khatami expressed his keen desire to visit Pakistan as soon as possible. During the meeting both sides reaffirmed their resolve to further strengthen their relations in the political, economical, cultural and scientific fields. While expressing satisfaction over the steps that have been taken to check the cross-border criminal activities and the anti-narcotics, they stressed the need of evolving a trilateral cooperation among Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan in order to combat the drug trafficking. About Pak-Iran relations, Khatami said the destinies of the two nations were linked together. "The strength of Pakistan is the strength of Iran and strength of Iran is the strength of Pakistan," he added and stressed the need to further strengthen these relations. Moinuddin Haider briefed the Iranian President on the prevailing tension between India and Pakistan and the measures Pakistan had taken to defuse this tension in the region.

"Unfortunately, India's response has been negative so far as it refused to enter into dialogue on the core issue of Jammu and Kashmir, which was the root cause of tension in the region and this tension is remained high as India had mounted a large Indian troops concentration on our borders," Moin told his host. The minister said India, in order to divert attention from the real issue was staging a drama of farcical elections in the Indian-occupied Kashmir whereas the real solution was implementation of UN resolutions as the people of Kashmir had been given the pledge by the international community to exercise their right of self-determination through a plebiscite. Moin also drew attention of the Iranian President towards the growing anti-Muslim trend in India, which led to the massacre of 2000 Muslims in Gujrat and incidents of burning of their properties. Pakistan Ambassador Javed Hussain and other members of the delegation were also present during the meeting.

[zia ul haq]

Asalaamo-a-laikum.

The Iranians my be interested in our missile craft and Super Mushak but litle else.

They have three Kio Class SSKs they got from Russia in the 1990s which they may or may not have learnt to use yet. The Arabian Gulf is shallow and perhaps not the best area for submarine warfare. To buy Agostas from Pakistan does not make much sense as they would have two incompatible submarines hence a huge logistics and spares problem.

Also Iran is manufacturing T-72s and its own tank the Zulfiqar. To buy the Al-Khalid again makes no sense for logistics and spares reasons.

Furthermore should Iran buy the two above systems we have no guarantee whatsoever that information on them wont be passed to the Indians.

On the other hand there are other things such as the Super Mushak and missile craft they can have if they want. Though to be frank I don't think there is much prospect of that happening. Iran is always keen to boast about how self reliant it is in the defence field and if it can build a guided missile destroyer a missile armed FAC shouldn't be beyond its grasp. Not without plenty of Russian help anyway. The same goes for a trainer in the ilk of the Super Mushak.

That is of course if the present and previous Iranian boasts are not style and no substance which is an accusation not foreign to this forum.

[SyedA]

Pakistan emerges as major arms exporter to Middle East, Africa, Far East
RECORDER REPORT
KARACHI (September 15 2002) : Pakistan has emerged as a major arms exporter to the Middle East, Africa and the Far East. The hot military items in the export market are Al Zarrar and Al Khalid tanks, Super Mashaq, jeeps and armoured personnel carriers (APCs). The Super Mashaq has an annual export potential of $ 30 million.

This was stated by Air Commodore Mansoor Malik, Director, Policy and Development, of Defence Export Production Organisation (DEPO) at the briefing on 'Ideas 2002' on Saturday at Karachi Expo Centre. The second grand defence show will be held at the centre from September 17 to 20, 2002.

Malik said Pakistan has already exported arms to Syria, Iran, Oman, Malaysia, Egypt, Malaysia and several African countries while there are queries for the major arm products such as tanks, aircraft and APCs from Saudi Arabia and other countries.

He said that Pakistan, which started collaboration in weapon manufacturing with China, Turkey and Ukraine on product-to-product basis, has now entered the advanced stage of research and development in military collaboration with these countries.

The world's interest in arms manufacturing in Pakistan can be gauged from the fact that as many 19 defence ministers and army chiefs of various countries will visit the second grand defence show in Karachi. The royal family members from the UAE and Brunei are also among the delegates. In all, 41 delegations from 32 countries will witness the unique display of arms. Among the visitors there would be large number of arms dealers without whom no defence export deal is possible.

The 'Ideas 2002' will be preceded by an international seminar which will have papers on 'Emerging Security Scenario in Asia' in the first session which will be presided over by Gen Jahangir Karamat. The second session of the seminar will be on 'Asian Defence Market'.

About 80 foreign companies, including 65 in public and private partnership, would put up their stall at the show which will be spread over three halls. Pakistan companies will put their stalls in Hall A while Hall B will be a mixture of foreign and local companies while Hall C has been earmarked for foreign companies.

The largest stall at the show will be of China with which Pakistan has enjoyed over 30 years of collaboration in arms manufacturing. 'Ideas-2002' will be formally inaugurated on the evening of September 16 while the show will open on Sept 17 morning. Sindh Governor will host a reception for delegates on Sept 17 evening. On Sept 18 evening there will be free time for chiefs of armed forces to have meetings with their counterparts. The organisers will host a reception for the delegates on Sept 19 evening. There will be a firing display at Sonmiani Beach. The focus of this year's display has been switched from the air force display to ground demonstration by army.

Aasim Siddiqui, Chairman of Pegasus Consultancy, in his presentation gave details of the exhibition as well as the various commercial and operational aspects.

_________________________________________


Pakistan's arms, ammunition exports up by 100 percent in four years
RECORDER REPORT
KARACHI (September 15 2002) : The commercial sale of arms and ammunition, produced by Pakistan, has increased by 100 percent in the last four years, according to a statement.

Pakistan's exports of arms and ammunition, which are handled by the Defence Export Promotion Organisation (Depo), headed by Maj-Gen. Ali Hamid, on government-to-government level, had burgeoned to more than 10 million dollars and orders for 37 million dollars were in the pipeline, it said.

According to the statement, in view of these developments, Ideas 2002 - International Defence Exhibition and Seminar -, being held here at the Expo Centre from Sept. 17 to 20, is being visualised as the new export horizon for Pakistan.

One of the major reasons behind this increase in the arms was the Sept. 11, 2001 incident in the United States, followed by slapping of tough sanctions by several big powers, which ended in Pakistan, adopting a new course of action that accelerated the production of arms and ammunitions and export to some 50 countries, it said.

The Ideas 2000, a brainchild of President Pervez Musharraf, was organised by the Depo for the first time two years ago at the Expo Centre.

As a result, Pakistan launched relentless efforts to increase exports to build up the much-needed foreign exchange reserves, which plummeted to abysmally low levels following detonations of atomic bombs on May 28, 1998.

Dozens of foreign experts, who visited the defence products' exhibition in 2000, vehemently acknowledged the quality and precision that trigged the exports and Depo is constantly getting orders from abroad for the Pakistan-made arms and ammunitions.

Because of high quality of the arms and ammunition, the Depo exports have increased to some 40 countries, including the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Germany, South Korea, New Zealand, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Switzerland, Ireland, Singapore, Turkey, Thailand, Saudi Arabia and Malaysia.

Pakistan's role as a frontline state in the fight against terrorism makes the second International Defence Exhibition and Seminar, Ideas 2002 an ideal platform for interaction to discuss the importance of support service and equipment, required by the multinational special operations forces for any intended threat of operation.

To further increase the exports of highly sophisticated and state-of-the-art weapons, Depo is constantly making efforts and contacting buyers abroad after fulfilling the needs of the Pakistan Army and to some extent the requirements of the Pakistan Navy and Pakistan Air Force.

Pakistan has also offered conventional weapons to foreign forces in neighbouring Afghanistan.

The Pakistan Ordnance Factory (POF) products range from German small arms and machineguns, Chinese anti-aircraft weapons, British and Chinese artillery ammunition systems, including French mortar bombs and aircraft and anti-aircraft bombs, shoulder-fired rockets, hand grenades, commercial explosives, dynamites and detonators, including industrial chemicals in its subsidiaries, clothing and tank and anti-tank ammunition.

After working hard on President Musharraf's brilliant idea, the POF had now sold Rs 270 million two-rupee coins to the Ministry of Finance at Rs 1.35, compared with foreign supplier's cost of Rs 1.85.

Similar to the large attendance by 45 high-level international defence delegations and dignitaries at the previous show, greater participation could be seen at the Ideas 2002.

Delegations, comprising ministry leaders and chiefs of the armed forces of a number of countries from almost every region, including Ukraine, Turkmenistan, Jordan, UK, Azerbaijan, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Oman, Kuwait, Turkey, Qatar and Spain, have confirmed their visits to Pakistan to attend this exhibition and meet top Pakistani government and armed forces officials.

[SyedA]

Pakistan, Azerbaijan agree to improve defence co-operation: KARACHI, Sept 17: Pakistan and Azerbaijan today signed an agreement to enhance defence co-operation, officials said. The agreement was signed between the visiting Azeri Defence Minister Colonel General Safar Abiyev and Defence Secretary Hamid Nawaz Khan in Karachi, a defence ministry statement said. The agreement covers military training and exercises, exchange of personnel and information and co-operation in defence science and industries, it said. "The signing of this agreement will further strengthen the bilateral ties between the two countries, particularly in the field of military and defence production." the ministry said. (AFP) (Posted @ 17:00 PDT)




Pakistan armed forces equipped with latest weaponry: General Musharraf - KARACHI, Sept 17: President Pervez Musharraf said today that Pakistan Armed Forces are fully equipped with latest weaponry and equipment in comparison with the enemy. "Everything depends on threat perception, and to see as what your enemy is in possession of and what is your strategy and whether you have the equipments according to that strategy," the President said while talking to APP during a visit to IDEAS-2002 Defence Exhibition where he also had a luncheon meeting with various delegations. The President observed that we could be having a little less equipment if there was a high-tec threat, but in the wake of present external threat, we have very good equipment to counter the same. (APP) (Posted @ 17:00 PDT)

[SyedA]

Musharraf invites private sector to co-operate in defence production
KARACHI (September 17 2002) : President Pervez Musharraf has said that the development of defence industry is highly imperative to face any threat to the country.

Inaugurating Ideas-2002, the Defence Exhibition at Expo Centre here on Monday evening, the President pointed out that Pakistan's defence industry has developed to an extent where it can be introduced to other countries of the world.

He said it was in keeping with this view that the government had decided to organise the first Defence Exhibition of Ideas-2000.

President Musharraf said that Pakistan's defence production has attained the capability to make exports to other countries, side-by-side meeting the requirements of the armed forces of Pakistan.

He stated that Pakistan is pursuing the policy of arms for peace, which is necessary for the regional peace also. Musharraf pointed out that with the same approach, Pakistan has accelerated its abilities in the R&D in the defence sector.

He made it clear that in the prevailing regional situation, Pakistan cannot remain oblivious to its defence requirements and needs.

President Musharraf said that for the production of weapons and keeping in view the latest requirements of this industry the time has come that the private sector should fully co-operate with the public sector.

He stressed the need for entering into joint ventures in the field of defence industry with other countries.

In the Ideas-2002 Defence Exhibition, which will continue for five days, some 50 delegates from abroad and over a hundred defence organisations are participating.

Speaking earlier, the Director General of Defence Export Promotion Organisation, Major General Ali Hamid, said that on the concluding day a befitting firepower display will be held.

Secretary Defence Production Air Marshal Zahid Anis (Retd) said that in the Ideas 2002 Exhibition, arms and ammunition of high quality and latest technology have been put on display.

The 2nd International Defence Exhibition and Seminar - Ideas 2002 has captured the attention from top military decision-makers and government personnel from almost all corners of the world.

"The response received from exhibitors and foreign delegations has been much positive than the last exhibition," an official from organisers told APP after the formal inauguration of the exhibition.

He said that exhibition is being participated by many countries including China, Brazil, Ukraine, France, the UAE, Brunei, Turkmenistan, Jordan, the UK, Azerbaijan, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Oman, Kuwait, Turkey, Qatar and Spain.

The show has also been able to attract officials from the defence ministries of France, Belgium, Switzerland and the UK in addition to trade visitors from as far away as Australia.

The five-day exhibition is being participated by visitors from across the world in one of the largest defence shows in South Asia.

Pakistan has gained world-wide recognition and popularity as the most supportive ally in the fight against terrorism in the region, which has brought into focus the need for closer International defence co-operation.

The overall scenario provides an excellent opportunity to integrate the international defence industry with Pakistan's indigenous arms and ammunition producers for entering the global regulated arms trade regime with a new strength.

Ideas 2002, together with international manufacturers and suppliers of products and services, will explore the opportunity for co-operation in the field of defence production and facilitate the commonality of weapons and equipment for the ease of integration of multinational forces.

Having already achieved a well-deserved popularity and prominence in the defence market, Ideas 2002 would further pave the way for mutual understanding and co-operation between the nations jointly involved in serving the global cause of peace where Pakistan keeps playing its dominant role in the Asian region.

Gen. Musharraf said the defence industry forms the basis of all industries and the government will encourage private sector to play its role in defence production.

President Musharraf said Pakistan has launched itself into the circuit of international defence exhibition with the introduction of Ideas-2002. It has also heralded the maturing of our defence industry and its products.

"We have established Defence Export Promotion Organisation (Depo) to harmonise our efforts in defence export and boost collaboration in both public and private defence manufacturing sectors."

The President commended the private sector of Pakistan for joining hands with the public sector in developing and giving a further boost to defence production in Pakistan.

He said Ideas-2002 reflects the desire and will of the government and defence manufacturers in energising economic and commercial activity in the country by aligning our defence links with industrial sector towards enhancing defence exports and furthering strategic collaboration.

He said in the technologically advanced nations of the world defence industry is one of the largest revenue and foreign exchange generating sector. Venturing into this field Pakistan has a fairly large defence manufacturing and supporting infrastructure, which is now gearing up to increase our defence exports to their full potential.

He said we are considering Joint ventures and co-development for customised products, with the sharing of technology with interested countries which like Pakistan, appreciate the need for diversifying the sources of supply of conventional weapons.

He said there is a need for producing equipment for developing countries that have resource constraints, so as to help them meet their internal and external threats.

He said this could be overcome by adopting advanced technology on the one hand and marketing the products on competitive prices on the other.

Musharraf said Pakistan has a long history of defence production co-operation.

He said organisational support and re-organisation was an important element in the training of forces. He said now time has come to give a new dimension to this co-operation by collaborating in defence production.

He said: "we think this change in dimension will help promote relations in the defence industry specially through the exchange of technology and information."

He said developing countries require arms in view of internal and external threats and that they have to acquire these arms through external sources and the prices of these arms increase with the passage of time.

He said the monopoly of developed countries is decreasing as they were switching over to high technology while the developing countries have different concern, that is, they have to meet their equipment requirement within their resources.

The President said the topic of the seminar and exhibition "Arms for Peace" manifests our shared objective of peace and deterrence and our strategy is also based on this policy.

The inaugural ceremony was also attended by the Services chiefs, senior military officials and delegates from foreign countries.

Later, the President went round the stalls in the exhibition and appreciated the organisers for arranging the exhibition.

President Musharraf visited the stall of Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) at the Expo Centre.

The President, accompanied by the Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, Chief of the Naval Staff, Chief of the Air Staff, Vice Chief of the Army Staff, Secretary, Defence Production and Chairman, Defence Export Production Organisation (Depo), evinced keen interest in the exhibits and appreciated the standard and quality of products of the country's biggest defence production unit.

Chairman, POF, Lieutenant General Abdul Qayyum briefed the President about different products indigenously developed by POF.

The President was informed that POF had exhibited around 55 products, which include ammunition, small arms, rockets, propellers and various other defence related products.

The President also briefly visited the stalls of Heavy Industry Taxila (HIT), Air Weapon Complex (AWC), Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Council and NDC.

A number of visiting defence delegations of Oman, Saudi Arabia, Nepal, UAE, Senegal, and Uganda also visited the POF stall and other organisations and showed keen interest in the defence products.

Official delegations from more than 50 countries of different regions have been visiting the Ideas-2002. The exhibition will continue till September 20.-APP

Copyright 2002 APP (Published under arrangements with Associated Press of Pakistan

[SyedA]

Defence agreement signed at IDEAS-2002



KARACHI, Sept 17 (APP)- Pakistan and Azerbaijan Tuesday

signed an Agreement to enhance defence cooperation between th