Morale of Pak Army deployed on the borders

[Amad Rana]

o.k its tough time for army families in pakistan, but they are very happey that their loved ones are out their to protect our motherland,and i tell you our jawans and officers are itching to get some piece of the action, each one know very well its pay back time for stinkees. you can hardly see any jawan in cities,nobody is allowed to go home for more than 36-hours , major area of action maybe at our soft belly,i.e from R.Y.khan to karachi,big armoured concentration on indian side ,but we are ready ,i can assure everyone,and glad i am home because this the place i want to die. we are just waiting first bofor shell on Lahore and its all out war these ********** will never forget.cheerz.

[Boota Masih]

If any of the members have any genuine information about the morale of our troops currently deployed on the borders please post them on the forum. It would also be very interesting to know any special actions that have been taken for the welfare and comfort of the troops currently in the field under very difficult conditions. Also any thoughts about equipment attrition?

[Usman Shabbir]

Rommel visited some forward Pak Army posts near Lahore front a while ago and he might have some good first (or 2nd:)) hand knowledge.

[Capt Ali]

Salaam,

The morale of the front line soldier is as usuall as high as ever before. They are ready to die for their country no matter what they are against. Just keep in mind that the morale of the front line troops is higher than before because they can see the Indian soldiers face to face in some locations which gushes the blood in their veins :mad:
As far as the morale of the Indian troops is concerned, it is considerably down than before as many of their fellow soldiers are dying due to mis-haps and road accidents. Plus they are doing nothing sitting at the border other than wasting time because frustration is creeping into them. Even the top military brass of India has said that sitting idle so close to the border is becoming a morale killer for the Indian Army.
Pakistani front line troops have only one thing to say, which is:
"They know that if they cross that LINE, death is waiting for them".

Allah Hafiz and Pakistan Zindabad.

[majithia]

You are long on rhetoric and short on " military common sense". I hope to God, these tricks are not pulled AGAIN by higher command in the army into prisoning our jawans psychologically, and this unilateral claim that we are superior and the odds are in favor of us in case of a war is simply dangerous. And when I say that, there is much truth in this warning .

We have an amazing ability to see only one side of the issue - our own self-glory. We must take reasonable steps to preserve the safe guard of our soldiers and our country. We should not treat enemy as demons who must be exorcised.

And we should address our shortcomings in a way so the "purity and holiness of our prejudices" are not shattered and we are not stung by our superiority complex later. :D :) :D :)

regards

Majithia

[Capt Ali]

Salaam,

Majithia, it is very easy to think neutral when you are sitting outside the range of artillery shelling and enemy bullets. You are sitting behind your computer and not facing the enemy on the border. Every single Jawaan of our Army is ready to sacrifice his life for Pakistan when the time comes and there are no second thoughts about that view.
You think that telling the Jawaans that your enemy is very stron becareful is going to boost their morale ? No, it is going to make them nervous, shahaadat is what drives an army Jawaan and it is InshAllah what they will get in the event of war.
If someone tells you, don't go in that cave it is very very dangerous, won't you think twice before going in there then ? Same is the case with Jawaans.
So stop acting like an intellectual person sitting behind a computer because your views are that of demoralization, not to boost the morale.
India has been shouting self-glory since the time it was created and still it could not do anything to Pakistan, I think that i proof enough of our capability.

[afridi]

I have had the chance to speak to a few people about the morale in particular and on field-tact.

Things are getting a little too hot.

Most of the men are up for anything. Even the few non-rhetorical comments were about decisive action in order to force a peace. I am not sure how our resident pshycologists will deal with that but in terms of morale it has been uplifting.

There is also a great degree of faith amongst the officers about the pro-active talks they have been receiving and how the commanders themselves have been involved. One said that it was nice to make terrain specific requests for the men and actually have those answered with priority, even though other pressing matters are at hand.
Many have found the new initiative oriented tasking a god sent and are ready to show how well they can proove their worth. They are very angry at the reports coming from the other side of teh border and have quite a remarkable amount of faith in the corps and their ability to delegate. (something not very often in existance when it comes to infantry based forces).


There is also a bit of frustration. The men do not see the resolution of the riots in Gujarat as something the Indian government is capable of. Then on top of that there is the memory of the Navy Atlantique. Just in case there was any real need to test that frustration, now we have the Pak Navy bus bombed. (it does not matter if the majority were french....the bus was military and the project was too).
Then there is Gujarat. That is really tipping the balance. Every enemy soldier is talked about as if they were the "literal incarnation" of every hindu rioter. The level of anger is quite extra ordinary.

This frustration needs to be addressed as it slowly turning into quite a rage and anger. This makes a very charged bunch of men. Or as Warburton once put it, "One would not wish to engage them in a bayonet charge".



As for the Indian side, I can only say that their morale is fairly high on teh grounds that most think that they need to prove their worth. Their officers are very frustrated too. The official line on Kargil has not quite managed to drum down the debate in the mess. The realities of Kargil and the mistakes (unjustly reffered to as blunders) costs quite a few lives and the officers seem to be taking teh true burden, when it lies elsewhere.
These are military men who have to prove that their skill is not to be challeneged and see this as a moment to prove it.

Ofcourse, the regular mihaps of one case or the other, the often exploding land mines and the mysterious depot fires also reach mess debate level. The effect of these is to dumb down the "edge" but the will to prove is still there.


Ironically, after talking one of them I could not help but be a little amused. The Indian officer was in the best mind frame for a defensive attitude while the Pak officer was fairly bullish and ideal for an offensive initiative.

How ironic that in any real engagement, chances are that this role would have to be reversed.


So, in short.....Pak forces are ready and itching to settle scores.

Indian forces seem to be ready for a hell digging.

Morale may seem to be higher on our side, but I hope we do not have to test it.

[uazim]

Originally posted by Capt Ali
Salaam,

Majithia, it is very easy to think neutral when you are sitting outside the range of artillery shelling and enemy bullets. You are sitting behind your computer and not facing the enemy on the border. Every single Jawaan of our Army is ready to sacrifice his life for Pakistan when the time comes and there are no second thoughts about that view.
You think that telling the Jawaans that your enemy is very stron becareful is going to boost their morale ? No, it is going to make them nervous, shahaadat is what drives an army Jawaan and it is InshAllah what they will get in the event of war.
If someone tells you, don't go in that cave it is very very dangerous, won't you think twice before going in there then ? Same is the case with Jawaans.
So stop acting like an intellectual person sitting behind a computer because your views are that of demoralization, not to boost the morale.
India has been shouting self-glory since the time it was created and still it could not do anything to Pakistan, I think that i proof enough of our capability.

Ali:

If you are in a position then train your Jawan's really well. High morale alone is not enough. Good training and good leadership are the other pre-requisite for the win. We are with you all the way, Shaheed or Ghazi, nothing else.

UA

[Capt Ali]

Afridi:

Things are getting hot, and that is exactly what we want the things to become for the time being. Why ?
1- Killing of French Navy Experts has made the Navy more robust and active in the field of protecting its assets, thusforth taking help from other fields like ISI and FBI in Intelligence gathering and how to safe guard its assets.
2- The morale of Pak Army has suprisingly raised because now they want to go after the people responsible for this incident. Because if the maulvis did it, they didn't help the Muslim world by doing it, thus seeding hatred in our hearts for them and their views.
3- Introduction of the new intelligence dept. has opened another window to fight terrorism and possibly grab it by its root. Intelligence gathering in Pakistan is done on the ground by govt. officials, which makes it more effective rather than monitoring it from the sky. First only specialized intelligence dept. was only by the army called the ISI which are not trained for domestic purposes.
4- This intelligence dept. is basically going to be trained by FBI and the people being trained are young blood with bright ideas and the blood still warm in their body.

Uazim:

There is no doubt in anyones' mind that the army jawaans are one of the best trained army cadets in the world. I am not making castles in the air, I am telling you with what I know and what I have experienced.

[majithia]

Cuptaan Ali,

Stop blubbering kid, and if my post upset you, it is just your tough luck. I know Pakistan army inside out and have seen both 65 and 71 wars very closely.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This is(emotionally) profitable fad in Pakistan army to promote the hell out of this Jazba-e-Shahadat in our simple jawans like the Zen Master orders his student to slid under the "chalk line" he draws on the pavement.:D :D

You can be an advocate of this kind of bravery and Shahadat and comfort them with "good life" after death to keep them (jawans) in the flock, but it is a big putdown. This type of bland belief is contrary to the wonderful nature of life and is not appealing to many in the army.

"What a society gets in its armed services is exactly what it ask for, no more, no less. What it ask for tends to be reflection of what it is. When a country looks at its armed forces, it is looking in the mirror. If the mirror is true one, the face that it sees will be its own".

Does it rings the bell?

"Allah He Hafiz" Or "Alaman Fil Hafeez":D :D

regards

Majithia

[Capt Ali]

Salaam,

Majithia, your post only rings one bell in me and that is the bell of a kid who thinks he knows everything. You said that you know the Pakistan army inside out, but have you ever served in the Pakistan Army ? I am quite positive that you have not served in the army.
All you have is second hand information on everything about the army, none of which is first hand.
You said that you have seen the battles of 1965 and 1971 very closely, which means that you are at an age excess of 40 to be able to understand what was happening at that time.
What you said about the Jazba of Shahadat, that is the first thought in every soldiers mind when they enter the army for service, which is to die defending their country. Shahadat is not shown only in war, but if a friend dies for another friend that is also called shahadat in Islamic terms. And in the army the soldiers are not just friends, they are brothers'. Brothers' fighting shoulder to shoulder for one mission, to defend their country from any opressors'.
Majithia, what you have been saying in the past posts is utter non-sense. All the soldiers of every country fight to give their lives for their country, in our religion they are called Shaheeds.
Therefore, Jazba Shahadat is not a mere promotion, it is what the Jawaans enter the army for, to protect their fellow officers and countrymen which in Islam is SHAHADAT.
Defending our people and country is what we enter the army to do, and if we die during that war doing it, for us it will be a job well done.
Get that straight in your head Sir.

[Saleem Hatoum]

[deleted]

[Gul Khan]

OK! calm down folks there is no need to get personal..... We are discussing the moral of our soldiers and please keep in mind they are also humans... So the question is after so long at the border and especially in the heat will it affect their morale?

For Indians I am sure their morale is sky high and I'd suggest the hijra brigade to take care of few hundred mujhadeen first before crossing swords with few hundred thousand of our jawans.

[afridi]

Ali,


Its actually quite amusing. The Feds were given a little bit of a scare when they found out that there was a "US" monitoring unit.

What seems to be happening is that this unit is now working in conjunction with the Feds to create a joint expeditionary force. I think this is a very good step.

Whatever the faults of the US LESs, especially the Feds, forensics and active investigation is something that teh US has made progress that is leaps ahead of their European counterparts. The French, ironically, are the closest there is in the EU.
This is a great learning experience for the MPs as well. They are getting some secound hand knowledge on investigative methods used by teh Feds in teh field. It will go a long way in allowing them to realise why is it that certain things are approachable and others are not.
Other than that, it will also give the Feds a very clear idea of different the Pak environment is from the 80s and how difficult it is for Intel. to be gathered. This is an area where we might be assisting, and most probably, playing the mentor role.


As for teh resolve of the men, that is high. These unfortunate incidents have actually risen that level a few notches and that in itself is a "two edged" sword. Though the resolve to teach a lesson is very strong, if you couple that with Pakistan's history of pre-emptive, innitiative-taking and extremely bold tactics, the mix is very explosive.
Ideally, an armed force like ours is not to be reckoned with in such a situation. However, what would be best is if this could be restrained at the moment. We are just about getting our house in order and there is a concertive effort in the establishment to take teh lead offered to them and clean their act.

A war now, might set that objective back a bit.

Though I do agree that the ranks are getting very edgy.

However, lets not ask of them what we do not ask of ourselves. these are dedicated men and ready to act upon commands, but that does not mean they are simply there to be gifted.

We have some strategic advantages and India has some (many more in comparison). Thus, lets not belittle the task before military. These young men are the future, not just the fighting force of the present.

"Tears hide behind my proud eyes when I imagine that so many of these "Aghas of tomorrow" shall be lost today in battle. May Allah forgive me for fighting today".

On encampment hours before Mohachs, while inspecting his elite Jaanisaarie as they were prepared/briefed (khutba) for battle by the Agha (Salaar/General/CinC) this was how Suleiman felt.
(Taken from the Personal memoirs of Sultan Suleiman).

**An excellent read for anyone who believes in aggressive campaigning.


So, lets not forget.

[afridi]

I tend not to write something like this, but I think it is needed.

Majithia, has an opinion and actually, a well seasoned one. Our opinions are what make us. Our experiences are what influence our opinions. I understand that everyone has a perspective on things that they can relate to. Some of teh people are have been around have had no military background what so ever and have absolutely no idea what some people are trying to achieve by becoming soldier. Others see no reason to live other than to be one.

So, perspectives are different. However, the same people who see no point to becoming soldiers will rise to the challenge of defending Pakistan in the most unwinnable situations. I know a few people who believe that the Pak armed forces are no match for the Indians, however when faced with even worse odds in business they take heavy penalties to help Pak companies.

Just because our opinions on some matters differ it does not make us less of a person.

Majithia is valid in pointing out that rhetoric ultimately does not lead to morale, it leads to illusions and on the field these illusions get shattered.

To make his point even clear I am paraphrasing (while translating) from the explanation (Tashree) of the "Mud-o-jazl-e-Islam"

When faced with an outnumbering and better equipped/supplied force at Badr, the prophet after seeing to his troops and taking in the opinion of leaders like Hazrat Hamza went back to his camp and prayed to Allah.
His words were of the effect that Allah you are aware that we have prepared as best we could and planned as best we could. Now what stands between the Kufaar and the illimination of your relegion are these few hundred men who lack the basic baggage of war, they are tired and they are weak in body.
Today, they will be tested in their will to defend your name, let them be victorious.


There is no indication in any book of any weight that the forces at Badr were told that they were superior to their opponents in weaponary. Actually, it was their humility "coupled" with their belief that made them steadfast and dig their heels.


The most intoxicating aspect of morale is only (I stress ONLY) available to experience by those who are committed, have faith (in their cause) and are considered the under-dogs by all they know.

These are what drove Badr our way, that is what turned Khyber into a rout, that is what assisted Babar at Kanwah, that is what gave the name of Jabl-ul-Tariq (Gibraltar) to a cliff in Europe where a commander besieged by his force's inability to defeat the enemy made him boost his force's morale by making it "clear" to them that these burning ships leave you no choice but to fight to become Ghazis in victory, or die and become shaheed while trying.


Ali,

What Majithia is telling you is one aspect of the issue, yours is the other.
Muslims were hard to fight against because they had a belief that was unshakable (as in your posts) and a sense of reality that was uncomparable (Majithia's opinions).

Together, you achieve. Alone you fall.

I hope I have explained why I believe both views are absolutely neccessary.

*****

I wish Khuda would give my wisdom (aql) to my sons

for then they would have the SENSE to see what is REAL in the enemy
and have the "JOSH" to do the unexpected to become victorious.

******

[majithia]

[deleted]

[Capt Ali]

[deleted]

[Gul Khan]

OK mod time to nuke some of the posts or close this thread.

[zeeshan]

Assalam oalaukum,

ok guys lets cool down....no more posts on this pretty useless thread.

thanks.

[majithia]

Afridi,

Thanks for bringing some sense and rationale into this discussion. Unfortunately in Pakistan we have established ourself a system whereby we as a nation have increasingly removed from honest opinion and thus became increasingly vulnerable to sweet words about ourselves.
We have vast masses of people who have been kept ignorant of the reality of our national problems. It inevitably led to catastrophe in 1971 as we did not have a discourse and openness.

Whatever our compulsions and itches are, for us to drift into war with India, we must look at all options to avoid war. India with its numerical superiority and initial surpise may be looking for opportunity to provoke us in a trap(they are good at)for which we may not be prepared.

Captain Ali,

Sorry for being rough on you and apologize for the harsh remarks, but that does not mean I agree with your logic. I am sure Pakistan army has something of which India is so afraid and it is not our wishful thinking.

regards

majithia

[Boota Masih]

Originally posted by majithia
Afridi,


We have vast masses of people who have been kept ignorant of the reality of our national problems. It inevitably led to catastrophe in 1971 as we did not have a discourse and openness.




Majithia Sahib,

Having myself gone through the pain of 1971 and I share your views. My intent in starting this thread was to get a sense of the conditions on the border for our troops. With the temperatures hitting 50 degrees celsius things must be getting very rough. Infact I got some private mails which gave a good overview of the situation that ties in with what Captain Ali was saying.

I will one add thing here, during my recent visits to Pakistan where I met a whole spectrum of people including those in the governement and the military I did not get a sense of false bravado (thank god for that). Absolutely no one wants a war because they all know that it will lead to death and destrction of unimaginable scale but at the same time every one seems to be ready to fight if a war is imposed on the country. Also almost every one especially those in position of power have reached the conclusion that if there is a war it will quickly escalate into a nuclear excahnge.

[SyedA]

sorry had to get in :)

well what i have read about military psyche and training is that in military you have to have everyone on the same page meaning ready to fight under one command. If every soldier became [hilosophical about death then WWI and II wouldnt have fought, nuke attack on japan wouldnt have happened, and the rest of the world would be so peaceful it would become boring :)

Anyway, having the "jazba shahadat" raised and boiling out of jawans is important not just fo rthe rhetoric but also to keep one frame of mind through out the army. You can't have an officer who is peace loving and his men ready to fight and die for.

if you talk to any ex-usarmy men they would justify every war US has been to, even if they were juts reserves. Knowing army is different and but to serve is deffinitely a different ball game. I have been to camping and after two days it starts getting on my nerves, now imagine that a soldier sitting at the border for months, eating we all know what, sleeping under worst conditions, and the rest of the living consitions are not better either, to keep him motivated there and ready to fight a war need s a lot of psychology. if you start preaching him peace and comfort then you have lost that war already!!!!

[Behjat]

Salaam,

I had no idea prior to this thread that things are very tense on the borders. I had thought that we're just going through the motions of responding to each other vis-a-vis escalation but that things wouldn't get out of control. Obviously my perception has been updated. It seems the Indians haven't landed back on earth from their excessive sense of superiority. Nor have they changed their position from intransigently denying the difference between Indian muslim, Pakistani, ISI, JeM, LeT, JKLF, Freedom fighters, terrorist, fundamentalist, extremist, militant, separatist, kashmiri--to them, these are synonyms. Please indulge in the following from dawn.com:



Restraint may not last, says India

NEW DELHI, May 14: India will find it difficult to show restraint in its military stand-off with Pakistan if attacks like the one at an Indian army camp near held Jammu persist, said a junior minister on Tuesday, according to the Press Trust of India.

"Events like this will ensure that restraint (by India) will not last," junior foreign minister Omar Abdullah told reporters.

He said the "terrorist strike" in held Jammu may turn out to be a flashpoint in relations with Pakistan. He said it would be "unfair" to expect only India to exercise restraint while Pakistan was not taking concrete measures to control the violence.

Abdullah said Indian army brass was likely to review their defence preparedness and troop positions along the border following the attack.-AFP

[Gul Khan]

Originally posted by Behjat

Abdullah said Indian army brass was likely to review their defence preparedness and troop positions along the border following the attack.-AFP

What were the jokers doing for last 5 months !!!!